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Is there any way that religion can be proved to be man made?

dinoid 5 Apr 18
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is there any way to prove it isn't? of course it is man-made. each one is curiously favorable to the group that has created it. there is no religion that says "the other guys is better; you're not as good; god doesn't love you as much as those other guys." not a single one. why is that? if religion is not made by man but rather created by some deity, why would that deity make so many conflicting ones, and why would s/he tell every group it is the best and everyone else sucks? (well, ALMOST every other group, anyway.) you may as well ask if we can prove santa claus is not real.

g

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Look at its history.

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Preponderance of evidence. It's not proof, per se, but it sure is compelling.

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Scientology

GwenC Level 7 Apr 18, 2019
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Just ask a group of Humans to stop talking about god for a year. I have not tried it but I would wager that god disappears.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." --Philip K. Dick

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I don't think natural science can prove it but I'm hopeful that psychology will do it.

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It's very interesting.

No, I watched the first 17 min but gave up because I think he is going off in the wrong direction.

@cava Ok. Maybe the book? Sometimes the written method has more information.

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Ummm what's your alternative?

lerlo Level 8 Apr 18, 2019
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Not to a believer because they operate by faith not facts. Religion proves itself to be man made because no god ever invented operated above the level of a spoiled 8 year old psychotic...

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The protozoan is quoted by science to have no evolutionary history, but of course it must have. To explain my findings in full would take some explaining, so let me try it this way. The primates have an evolutionary history and part of this history is all life cannot seeing accurately. It's not seeing accurately that feeds our intelligence. An example of this is when we come against something that we cannot explain, we reach for the supernatural in a desperate attempt at clarification, but what we are actually doing is the opposite. All life is in the same boat. The male jewel beetle couldn't tell the difference between a female and a bottle because both were the same colour and pattern. The primates didn't carry on up the evolutionary ladder to our level because intelligence had been achieved; there was no need for them to reach our level, staying as they are is more beneficial to an intelligent species. This could only happen if all life is connected. Life started as one and is most likely to still be evolving as one. (One energy that is.) The jewel beetle is proof that life cannot see accurately and primates could just prove that we are all connected. The protozoan is part of that energy as is all the rest of life, which could explain the diversity..The protozoan is just fitting in with what that energy allows. The protozoan's evolutionary history is the history of a universal pattern. If all life reached the same level of intelligence, that would destroy purpose; the purpose that is paramount to our existence. Keep thinking of life as one energy and compare it to the energy pattern of a black hole. Black Holes happen when gravity becomes too much, it is determined by the size of the star. This is the same pattern designed by the laws of the universe to keep the balance that is paramount for the universe to exist. Let us ask ourselves if the same pattern applies to evolution? Does this mean that the same thing will happen to us? After all the same universal patterns apply. This overload would apply to life if all life reached the same level.of intelligence; we would implode. (Extinction.) We are made of star dust, we are part of the universe and we have to conform.

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It depends on the religion.

I consider Scientology a religion (and a very toxic one at that). It was created by L. Ron Hubbard.

Buddhism was created by Buddha.

Those two, and quite a few others, including Pastafarianism and Mormonism, are easily proven to be man made.

It gets more difficult to "prove" the origins of other religions because they have been lost over time. We can make arguments based on logic and circumstantial evidence, but true believers can argue that is not proof.

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All religion is man made. There are definite historic acts leading to formation of any club.

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I don't see any way to prove it was man made, even if I believe it was.

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Many philosophers have pontificated that very question... Descartes, and Hume and fucking Plato, et. al...have asked themselves, "Is it logical to believe in a Supreme Being?"...

One of Descartes reasoning is... accepting his being as imperfect..yet, his imperfect mind can imagine a perfect Being, aka God, ..one attribute of perfection, would include existence...nonexistence, to a fault, is less than perfection.

...nothing to do with jesus, mind you...

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@genessa and Happy_Killpot are at conflict to sort this out. My next question is going to be about the protozoan and others. Science says it has no recognizable evolutionary history, but we all know it does. How it fits with evolution will perhaps answer both of your points of view.

do you mean they never evolved into anything or that nothing evolved into them? the former certainly isn't true, nor does science (which isn't a voice, but an area of study) say it is. i don't know anyone who says they magically appeared out of nowhere either. so i don't understand what you mean. can you specify? meanwhile, [britannica.com]

g

HOw do we all know that protozoan have a evolutionary history? I think will take the science over your idea.

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We will all die not knowing for sure, but objective scientific facts are as close as we can get to absolute truth.

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As opposed to naturally occurring? It can't be anything but man made, there's too many to choose from.

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The religious impulse is deeply embedded in the human psyche and is the source of all human creativity, science, art, etc. Individual religions were concocted by people for various reasons, some more benevolent than others, but those religions could not have been created without innate human religiosity. For evidence look at the widespread proliferation of religion throughout history.

Proofs are not absolute things. Each person has to look at the evidence and form her own opinion.

Anything made by humans is man-made but mankind itself is a product of nature or whatever you want to call it—higher power, etc.

@icolan The reason I call it the religious impulse is because of that inexplicable spark of conscious awareness that fosters a sense of deep awe and wonder in the face of the overwhelming mysteries of reality. From that spark comes thrilling vision, and there arises the utmost motivation to live well, to invent, to create.

If, because of negative associations you dislike the religion word it is perfectly ok with me to call it something else. However, for me, calling it the creative impulse doesn’t tell the whole story.

The religious impulse is deeply embedded in the human psyche and is the source of all human creativity, science, art, etc.................................. That's has no basis in any truth. A religious belief has nothing to do with science, art or creativity. Many an atheist was a great artist, a great inventor, or created new technologies.

@grammy A religious belief is nothing but an opinion and has little or nothing to do with anything. I’m not talking about religious belief. I’m talking about our primal spark of awareness which brought to humanity a sense of reverence and awe for existence. It is religion in its purest form.

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Proof is tricky, but I think it can be illustrated to be manmade in at least some cases. For example, we can see from pre-Hebrew societies that the Israelites adopted the god Yahweh from early Sumarian and Canaanite traditions. Yahweh, being a warrior god, held special significance to the wandering, warring Hebrew people of the time. The most interesting thing to me regarding this adoption is that there was a major shift in how the Hebrews turned a god into a travel companion, as before this time gods were considered to be tied to a particular region. The wandering Hebrews carried their god with them. Anyway, getting back to the synthetic nature of religion, early Jewish writings are clear that they believe in a pantheon of gods (e.g., the gods of Canaan and Sumaria), and this is what we see with the reference to "El" as a single god but "elohim" is often used to suggest a plurality of gods (though, as I understand it, not exclusively used as a plural noun). Also, Yahweh wasn't initially considered all-loving or all-good, and Satan wasn't especially evil (more of an advisor, it seems), but we see over time, as the religion itself evolved, that the positive traits remained with Yahweh while the evil is transferred to Satan. Death is the end, too, until the New Testament when Heaven and Hell become the eternal reward and punishment for humanity. The physical burning pit of Sheol where the bodies of the dead were disposed became the ethereal torture of Hell with Satan actively corrupting humanity and presiding over eternal damnation. (Step 1: Tempt humanity. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit.) And, even in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, we see a very sharp evolution in theology, with Mark being quite simple compared to the theology of John. Then, of course, there's Paul of Tarsus. I think Paul illustrates the manmade nature of Christianity quite clearly. Without Paul, Christianity wouldn't exist. He was an effective marketing agent, but the religion itself was a means to an end. Paul was an activist. He was politically motivated. He exercised influence (yes, even before social media there were influencers). He was looking to effect change socially and politically, and religion gave him the means to reach people, to convince people to live in specific ways. And it's Paul's words that many Christians today focus on, rather than Jesus. To justify war, for example, despite Jesus being so clearly depicted as a pacifist, Paul promotes the right to self defense. There are actually many topics on which Paul contradicts Jesus, e.g., Jesus says he comes not to abolish the law but to fulfill it while Paul claims that the law of Moses ended with Jesus.

And all this above (sorry for the wall of text) is a tiny drop in just one religion (or, set of religions, in the Abrahamic tradition) — and, if we want to get down to it, the fact that there are so many denominations of Christianity is pretty powerful evidence that humanity is the author of that particular religion — but I'm sure honest inquiry into all of the well-established religions of the world with a rich history spanning millennia would reveal similar patterns. I'm not a historian, though, and I don't study world religions in any great depth. But, with all of that said, no matter how significant the evidence might be that religion is the child of humans and not representative of anything divine, the devout will reject such notions and fall back to faith-based belief. I don't think it ultimately matters whether there's proof of human invention in religion, though; the fact that there's no evidence to support religion's myriad claims is more important to me. While it may be interesting to see how religion has evolved and bent to the whims of the powerful throughout history, it's not an argument against religion's claims. Illustrating the logical flaws in theistic arguments is much more valuable in my opinion.

Thanks for your reply, I couldn't be a religious historian either, for the very fact it would be like reading 'Mid Summers Night's Dream' only worse, because religion is assumed to be true and nothing could be further from the truth. (Embarrassing) When I look at all the thousands of religions in the world, I recognize them for what they are. If you throw into the mix the atheists and agnostics, what you get is the variants of intelligence that an intelligent species needs to survive; this correlation gives purpose, because purpose is the food of intelligence. If we were all on the same level, there would be no intelligent species. Though the religious won't like this, it is something they will have to face in the future as our knowledge grows. The fact is, the variety of religions along with every other field of intelligent design is down to the laws of nature, it dictates the pattern. We are all, including religion, subjected to the laws that drives evolution. Yes even religion is the result of evolution. When religious people come up against something that they can't explain; in a desperate attempt at clarification they call it supernatural, but instead of clarifying they are doing the opposite. Imagine a world ruled by one religion with its opposed view of reality; it would destroy purpose, our species would soon be on the decline and on its way to extinction. This is why religion will eventually have to go; it's defeating its own purpose. It is going against everything that nature is telling us.

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Thanks for your replies, like most of you say, a person of faith will not believe evidence even if it is put before them. However faith is losing the battle world wide, but it is so entrenched, it becomes a very slow process. Let's give it a go to prove religion is man made. There are thousands of different religions in the world and there are lots of football teams, all different. There are politics, all of a different position and so on and so on. An intelligent species needs these variants of intelligence or there would no intelligence. If we consider all the religions and toss in the atheists and agnostics, it gives an illusion of segregation, but the fact is they are acting as one; all are doing what is dictated to them by the laws of nature. 'Evolution.' Intelligence demands this order for it to survive. When those of faith come up with something they cannot explain they bring in the supernatural in a desperate attempt at clarification, but the truth is, they are doing exactly the opposite. If the world was ruled by one religion with these opposed views to reality, then our species would start to decline, because that would destroy purpose and purpose is the food of intelligent life. Religion is definitely man made.

Interesting analogy. It's important to consider that evolution can not function with dilution. The dismantling of those things that do not function or serve no purpose is required. In terms of ideas and beliefs, this manifests itself in the rejection of other ideas, effectively rendering them immortal. In order to kill an old idea you must either plant both ideas and wait for the superior to overpower the other, hit it with overwhelming force, or corrupt it's basis for existence effectively starving it.
If you have seen the Pew research centers statistics on religious beliefs it clearly shows a trend away from religion in millennials, however closer inspections shows that most identify as "spiritual non denominational" rather than atheist or agnostic.

@Happy_Killbot no dismantling is required. things atrophy; species starve to death. there is no drive to evolve unless it is necessary, but if it's not necessary, that doesn't mean the thing that didn't evolve blows up. cockroaches are doing just fine, thanks, even if they've never built pyramids or written plays.

g

@genessa I'm referring to the evolution of ideas not species. Ideas don't decay or starve to death, they are bulletproof.
Consider this example: If a company wants to have quality employees, they need to hire hard working qualified people who are a good fit with the culture, and fire people who are lazy or a bad fit. Only by doing both of those things can a company "evolve" into a better one.

If you only hire more people your company will end up paying people who aren't providing enough benefit to justify their paycheck.
If you only fire bad people work won't be done and your company will fail due to inefficiency or people will quit due to being overworked.

Where as species evolve by external pressures ideas evolve via deliberate action by entities exercising agency.

@Happy_Killbot you didn't SAY evolution of ideas, and your post didn't really indicate that you meant ideas, so how would we know? your example, by the way, isn't really evolution. you can use the word casually that way and everyone will understand what you mean, and it's okay to do that, but if you're trying to make an analogy to show how ideas can evolve, that's not a valid one, because that process you described is not even remotely similar to actual evolution. in actual evolution there is no dismantling, and i stand by what i said.

g

@genessa Evolution: the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
"the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution"

When an animal eats another organism, the consumed organism is digested down to the molecular level. A special protein, known as nuclease in humans, breaks down DNA that can then be absorbed and rearranged into human cells. That requires the dismantling of old things in order to make new things. Sick and weak animals need to die in order for strong healthy ones to survive. If it wasn't this way, there would be a regression to the median and no true progression could occur.

With ideas, the same thing has to happen. Good luck finding many people who think feudalism is a good idea for example. I don't mean the records should be destroyed, just that evolution of things requires the dissemination of old things. You can't keep adding new ideas to the old and expecting them to get better, you have to challenge old ideas with new ones and forget the ones that are no better or worse than the old ones and replace old ones with new ones as they are more capable, thus creating a feed back loop of progress.

Let me put this in a logical statement:
-If something evolved then it changed over time
-something that changed is not in it's original form
-therefore the original state no longer exists after time has passed

@Happy_Killbot original state no longer existing AFTER TIME HAS PASSED, yes. that is not dismantling. but whatever. and many times the original state does still exist.

g

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It's self evident.

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You mean like, maybe religion is force of nature?

Maybe mystical thinking is a phase a species or a culture goes through in the same way that it's one that a child goes through. Do you remember what it was like to see the world as a very young child? Everything's Magic. And it has to be you're not capable of understanding it in any higher way until you learn your way through it. Maybe our species has to do the same thing, and we're just the older kids whove learned a little logic and a little reason and look down on the Poor Little Tots that haven't got there yet.

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Religion is man made.

The idea of divinity behind those religions is a lot more troublesome as they often are too far removed from what we know as reality to conclusively disprove.

For example. I believe in 'Dave', a 3-headed giant ostrich like being existing in another dimension who created this universe when he sneezed.

Sure, it is a religion with just one follower. But prove me wrong. 😛

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We can make our own religion. That would prove it.

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Only if you have commons sense.

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