Agnostic.com

26 4

What are the most effective ways adults are recruited to religion and how do we stop them?

We know that one strength of the pernicious religion meme is to require proponents to pass it forward and indoctrinate their young. For sure that's memetics 101 but with modern population growth rates that will only just about maintain numbers over time, if not do worse, depending on the defection rate as participants mature. The much more important factor seems to be the virallity and how many non-religious people each of their members can recruit.

As such I'm wondering what people think are the most powerful ways religion manages to exploit to recruit new members, and what we as a society do to make those ways less effective.

prometheus 7 May 3
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

26 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

8

In modern western societies about the only way people are pulled into religion as adults is through the targeting of people who have become socially isolated; many people are lonely, and often hungry with it, and most religions have a social element combined with a tendency to feed the poor (albeit one, which in the most vocal advocates of their own work with the poor, is often combined with a militant opposition to other poverty alleviation schemes, particularly governmental ones, which will be loudly decried as socialism or even communism).

JoeB Level 6 May 3, 2020

I'm fond of pointing out that Jesus would was arguably the first socialist. Or at least not in the dictionary sense of "controlling the means of production", but taught things that if the government did them would be labelled as socialism. Kind of like bailing out and protecting corporations is "corporate socialism".

If the government did what churches do and combined free food with science, civics, and rational thinking education it would probably be labeled "entrapment" 🙂

Jesus was hardly the first with feeding the poor - it was considered a governmental responsibility in Rome.

4

It has been my experience that religions, especially the door knocking variety, prey on the weak, the vulnerable, the desperate and the lonely.
Usually by promising answers to problems, bribes and hope.
When I was a missionary we were told to alway answer the question "did god send you?" with a resounding yes, and to play the idea of being an answer to a prayer.
It is despicable, exploitative and immoral.

Uh-huh.

"Did God send you?" ... "Yes".

Your god is a genocidal maniac with catastrophic anger management issues. Man up and tell Him to FUCK OFF!

(Sorry, my childhood anger and rage is showing.)

Somehow I didn't think we'd have former missionaries, although it is kind of obvious.

I have a feeling confessions of former missionaries would make for some compelling TV. I guess someone would argue that such a show wouldn't have a big audience or would be unpopular. However shows are made for all kinds of minority audiences - so you'd think with one third of Americans religiously unaffiliated (more than there are non-white, or non-heterosexual in the US) we could easily get programming just for us. Plus you know a bunch of religious people would watch it anyway. Even Trump watches the liberal pundits on TV - crossover happens!

4

I've noticed that adults join religions or switch religions for a lot of reasons but the main one is the desire to join a group that will be supportive of their wants and needs. For some this is a business consideration, I've known a few realtors who have joined large churches for the business connection as often people deal with members of their own church when buying and selling real estate. I had a carpenter who belonged to several different churches because he was a jazz trumpet player and he would go to the various funerals with his trumpet and play taps, the members would pass the hat for his service and he usually made several hundred dollars, enjoyed the free food at the wake and if he played his cards right he got to console one of the female members after the wake. Apparently, the nearness of death makes some people extra horny.
Most people are just lonely and feel disillusioned with life so it gives them the sense of meaning and community they crave, the rituals and routine are things people find pleasant and comforting. If they wanted to gain a greater understanding of god they could just read all of the religious texts and that should cure them of these delusional thoughts.

Oh the business aspect is good one I hadn't thought of. Although technically your carpenter probably isn't going to proselytize much - he's along for the free ride even if they don't know they are being used. That would be ironic since one theory says that religion exists as a societal solution for dealing with free-riders. A bit like a gang but with metaphysical menaces not physical ones. Although if you are in an area where everyone is strongly affiliated with a church then the financial aspect may be that of not participating. If you're not in our "family" you won't get our business...

However it sounds like the trumpeter might be at risk of ending up hooked up with a churchy person and before you know it he is raising churchy kids and teaching them how beneficial it is to be a hanger on. Mission accomplished...

@prometheus I doubt that Calvin ever go caught up, just hooked up. He loved his music and was all about sharing the love on an island where people will typically ask you how man kids you have and then follow it up with the question how many inside your marriage and how many outside of it.
The most confusing day in Bermuda has got to be Father's Day.

4

We don't stop them. That is, we can't control others' choices. But I get the question's intent. To understand why people fall for it, we have to think what they are looking for or bothered by. Loneliness and need for community, insecurity, feeling shame and inadequacy, or just plain abject fear of death and the unkown fantasy hereafter. Those are common issues that make a person a juicy target for religious recruitment. If someone is aware of sensible options for geting their emotional needs met, religion will have little attractive value for them.

Aside from the question of prevention, though, is the equally, if not more, important question of helping the indoctrinated find a way out. Google "sidewalk epistemology." Basically, rational argument for atheism is, by itself, not often enough to pursuade a person to suddenly abandon a religious paradigm they have invested much of their very identity into. Better to plant seeds of doubt and help them realize that rigid certainty about their beliefs is as unnecessary as it is unreasonable. Once a person has given self permission to question and reject specific ideas touted by their religious leaders, it is finally possible for them to throw off the fear of being punished for thinking for oneself.

"the fear of being punished for thinking for oneself" - Exactly!

I've watched a lot of the street epistemology videos. That guy Anthony Magnabosco has the patience of a saint. He doesn't seem to publish videos where he gets a negative reaction - I'm guessing those people don't allow him to use any video he takes - but it is amazing how many people will talk to him for ages. I know he mostly hangs out on a campus where there are younger inquiring minds but its not all people like that.

I could probably carry on that kind of conversation online, but in person, I think I'd find it a challenge. And his seemingly encyclopedic knowledge of the subject matter is very impressive.

4

Adults are recruited into religion by means of indoctrination from babyhood. It would take an extremely brave legislature to forbid parents from indoctrinating their own children into the religion and sect chosen by said parents.

@Allamanda Wow! Thank you for sharing that. 🙂

3

Interesting question (if I understood it correctly).

I don't know any adults who were recruited into religion AS adults, but I do know a few who were vaguely religious and got pulled in much deeper.

When I have seen this happen, it has always been either marriage or substance abuse. That is, either the subject has fallen in love with a religious person and has reconnected with the religion of their childhood, OR the subject has attended a 12-step program and has rediscovered the healing power of talking to themselves....oops...I mean praying.

I do not know what to do about the intoxicating nature of love. 😉. For those who are chemically intoxicated, though, I propose that we resist 12-step programs - particularly court-mandated ones. They are notoriously ineffective, they are disingenuous about their religious content, and they prey upon people in their weakest moments.

Thanks for the response, sounds like you understood the question as I intended although not all did and were convinced I was asking something else.

Even with the more generous statistics of no religious affiliation being at 33% is likely that almost everyone who is an adult has had at least some religious indoctrination in their youth, so yeah I get that many may be just lapsing to something that was familiar before, or awakening buried thoughts and emotions.

I get it too having being raised a Christian by my mother (father was completely a-religious and never spoke of it, although he took us to an awful lot of churches from an archaeological/historical perspective) but found my way out through education, science, and pure rational thought. After the death of my father when I was 17 I think I would have been a prime candidate to go full on into religion. Fortunately I escaped that - English churches are mostly non pushy and so was my mother, and I was already counting myself at least as a strong skeptic. One of my brother's did end up sucked into the Church - even dabbled with one of the more cultish ones for a bit and had some pushy young female members showing up "to pray with him". My mother managed to help extricate him from that group. Now he's just a harmless typical Anglican Church of England participant. Never ever preaches to me, and does good but mostly harmless things in his spare time.

Anyway I did briefly date, long distance, a quite religious woman. My first true love I'd say - at least as an adult. We talked about religion and she knew I was an atheist. I think we ignored that for a while because we were besotted. When I eventually met her in person she did take me to her American church which was moderately evangelical / hippy dippy love and Jesus stuff. I was there strictly as an observer, felt zero draw to Jesus. I think I figured this would just be a thing she did on Sundays if we got together long term. Shortly after that she broke up with me because of the religion thing. I could never be part of her relationship with Jesus. I think she did me a favour. But yeah, I guess I can see how someone could get lured in if they were less set in their ways and maybe more desperate for companionship.

I've heard a bunch about 12 step programs. I think I read in the last year or two about someone who managed to get out of a court mandated program because he was able to demonstrate that the accepting a higher power thing was against his atheist stance. Would have to look up a link for that but it sounds like a good step in the right direction. Hopefully there will slowly be more people taking note of this insidious nature of those programs. It definitely sounds tantamount to unconstitutional mandating of religion...

@prometheus you are very wrong that C of E or Anglicans are harmless.....magical thinking destroys scientific thought....thus the painful slow escape from cults ....all religions are cults whether born into each or recruited @ any age .....I taught my children holy days are the gateway drug to cult addiction....the best way to save a neighbor or friend from religion is to be an Atheist example proud methodical and versed in Atheist history of the last 28 centuries....rebuff all their claims for miracles and demand proof = evidence for a rational definition of the alleged words = gibberish gawds gott gods in any language

@Larry68Feminist aren't less than 10% of Brits actual church goers? And they seemed to be the least evangelical bunch when I lived there. If they are dying out then probably best to just leave them well alone.

But the Anglican Church as a whole - well it has a finger in a lot of multinational pies, especially Africa right? Not sure I actually called them harmless, but I guess relative to the evils of American evangelicals... They seem to be the lessor of two evils to me. That said there's barely an organized religion that can walk away from their influence on society with clean hands.

3

I do not think that they do recruit many.

@Allamanda That is true yes, but I suspect that a lot of the people who fall in to New Age woo, come to it from theocratic religion. Especially they see some of what is wrong with that, but do not make the full leap to the rejection of belief.

@Allamanda Some people do have that nature. And it is sad, because it seems that they are in the same relation to the world of ideas, that some people are to, for example, the place where they live. Always moving house and /or buying a bigger better house, because they think that there is a magic location that will solve all their problems and make them happy. Of course it never does.

2

I let people make their own decisions. But when they start preaching to me, that's when I ask for facts and evidence to support what they are saying. If they give me a pamphlet, I read it and then point out that it has no basis in facts or good reasoning, but is founded on blind faith and poor logic. If they point to the Bible, I point out flaws in the Bible, such as false prophecies and contradictions. I may not convince them immediately, but I cling to the hope that they will follow through with their own research and see that it's just a scam based on mythology.

@BestWithoutGods

You have more patience than me.

"We are ALL atheists here," I say to Jehovah's Witnesses, grandly sweeping my arm to include the entire neighborhood.

That shuts them up. Good.

Yeah I lean towards passive measures and socratic reasoning myself. Where I live I seldom get the opportunity - I'm a bit rusty on things like false prophecies or contradictions. But I do know the bad parts they don't like to talk about or pretend aren't important or not really part of Christianity.

But my question was probably more towards societal changes that could be made - I didn't want to make it a leading question with examples but some have come up already: better health and mental healthcare for everyone, take away the burdens of simply living like food and housing, proper rehab in prison and help for ex-cons, better education, more activities for youth outside of possibly toxic homes, non-religious hotlines and outreach for the needy and desperate.

One guy doing a TED talk about how he escaped a cult called it "filling the potholes". Life if full of potholes - just fill them up!

2

No recruiting except when you are already infected and some visitor makes you change allegiances from one idiotic crap to some other more idiotic one. The brainwashing is done since birth by your parents, then ingrained by society, peers, the media and the clergy. The only way to counter this is through the advencement of science and secular efucation. Hopefully the most indomitable minds will eventually see the light whenever they seek truth and logic, evidence and common sense.

1

Wherever there is pain and suffering you will find religion. Not so much to help but to recruit. In addiction treatment centers and Drug Courts across the US over 2 million people are subjected to the 12 Step programs every year where belief in a higher power is essential for a successful recovery. It's a no wonder success rates are so low. They're treating addiction with Dark Age superstitions.

1

Protestant north americans like evangelicals do it by making friends(sowing seeds), often through normal social channels. They may be transparent about it or they may not - if it's a church outreach thing obviously the people would know they're being fished for; it can also be a neighbor just making small talk with you, or a christian in your running group, and in that case the potential convert wouldn't know. I've seen both cases, and I have to say, christians not being upfront about what they're doing or what they really believe is greasy and skeevy. I think they would justify not disclosing with some moral reasoning that appears correct if you held their assumptions about the world and thought the way they do.

I was recruited in college. My friend from sophomore year moved into an apartment with members of a christian fellowship even though he wasn't hardcore like them. I would run into them when I visited my friend. They were really friendly with me, they were charismatic and had this pleasant energy about them, they were down to earth and kind. And before I knew it, I was going to their fellowship meetings. But the seeds of my conversion were sown through prior contact, experiences with christian relatives who had themselves been converted. Unfortunately for them, and me, I am not christian material.

Thanks for sharing. Why did you say "unfortunately for them, and me". Do you regret not being Christian material?

@prometheus Unfortunately for me because I developed schizoaffective disorder soon after converting. Unfortunately for them because I didn't turn out the way that they hoped.

1

I’m not really interested in stopping people from joining religions.

1

Why ask why? Some children go along with what their parents do. Some develop antibodies. It's not our job as individuals to prevent adult humans from getting sucked into weird religions. We can't save people from themselves, nor should we try. Freedom. The freedom to be as ignorant as they want to be. Why people do what they do is a mystery. I don't even know why one person likes yellow and another likes blue. Persons susceptible to religion must be looking for friendship in the congregation, seek answers to questions that have no answer, or want to relinquish responsibility for their actions. I'm seldom challenged, but when I am, I first question what kind of idiot would take me on. Then, depending on how closely connected we are ( family, friends, friends of friends, or people I work with ) I figuratively pull their arms and legs off. Not to teach or reform, but to entertain myself. Deep in my black, flabby heart I'm a curious amoral 6 year old boy dismantling a bug. I'm mean when annoyed, and know that about me and embrace it. I don't look to pick a fight ever, but if somebody wags their ass at me I know what to do. Remind me to tell you about the Mormon that crossed a crowded nightclub to tell me about the pentagram I was wearing.

1

“Recruit to religion?—say Christianity”: I think there are two distinct issues here. One is to convince nonbelievers (atheists, agnostics, Moslems, etc.) that Christianity is the truth, while the other is to persuade those “sinners” who already believe to give up their sinful life-style (drinking, carousing, cheating…whatever), get “born-again,” join the church, start praying, bible study, tithing, and become soul-winners themselves. Those who try to do the former are Christian philosophers, like C.S. Lewis, while those who try to do the latter are Christian evangelists, like Billy Graham. (Of course, one and the same person might may try both.) Then there are the many charlatans—like Elmer Gantry.

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with the first two attempts. I feel the indoctrination of children by soul-winning adults is the great evil, but that the exploitation of gullible adults by charlatans is pretty bad too.

1

It’s a matter of choice I still insist. No one gets forced in a free state.

1

People get converted or radicalised if their needs at their points of vulnerability are perceived to have been met or addressed.

Having said that, is it our place to try and stop people getting converted?

If it is, then we have to live a good life andlet our works be seen, around the world

1

Fear being pushed onto the ignorant. Education from an early age will finally decrease this crap mythology.

Unfortunately in the US they are doing everything they can to make education as useful and informative as a chocolate teapot. First they break it, then they throw it out for not working, and then they replace it with something worse including meme friendly "home schooling".

1

Being born into a highly religious family.

How to stop it? Birth control.

So just look at the things they are trying to stop ... Birth control, good education, separation of church and state, universal affordable or free healthcare and mental healthcare, housing for everyone... Sounds like a good starting point.

1

I thought atheists claim to be simply withholding belief—that they are awaiting further evidence, to be provided by those who are supposed to be bearing the burden of proof. How does that translate into launching a campaign of proselytizing and indoctrination into your belief system?

Better take a look at the society that you propose to step in and quash religion. Atheists make up a very thin fraction of society.

You've got this all wrong. Atheism is not a belief system to be proselytized onto. It is merely not merely awaiting evidense of deity. It is not believing in god(s). While you are busy being magnanimous and respectful toward all faiths, fundamentalists are busy trying to control society through campaigns to re-write laws and other social codes you would be required to live by.

Lest you think their efforts are fruitless and harmless, just look at the state of the GOP. Look at the massive history of laws that have gravely persecuted those who didn't cow tow to religious rules. Any self-respecting queer person should see how dangerous religion can be.

Religion is not merely an academic question of whether a god or gods exist. Spirituality, perhaps, can be a personal exercise for sorting one's personal value system in a healthy way. But organized religion is something different. It is external to any individual person. It is about social control, and it is powerful and therefore deserves to be checked, countered, held accountable in some way.

@MikeInBatonRouge You can’t have it both ways. The poster is asking for ways to stop adults from being recruited into religion. Trying to stop adults from following their inclinations requires some sort of argument, i.e. proselytizing and indoctrination into your way of thinking—into your world view—your belief system.

I am in no position to be magnanimous toward religions. To me it’s not magnanimity but logical necessity that requires respect for all perspectives. That is because no one person has the complete picture.

Various groups campaign for their values to be adopted or at least preserved.There is nothing illegal or undesirable about that so long as things can be worked out democratically and our basic civil rights are preserved.

History has shown repeatedly that when atheists seize control democracy and civil rights go out the window.

@WilliamFleming Elsewhere I made the same point you did that people have choice, and we can't stop that choice,vso we don't ebtirely disagree. But I also guess the post was possibly overstating its intent. We certainly can influence. What you called proselytizing and indoctrination I call educating and encouraging people to apply reason. The "belief" vs "not belief" arguments is semantics. The problem is in equating belief based on religious faith with belief based on an educated reasoned evaluation of evidence, which is subject to revision pending additional vetted information. Apples and oranges

How does that translate into launching a campaign of proselytizing and indoctrination into your belief system?

I've no idea, those are your words not mine and nothing at all to do with what I was asking.

@prometheus Maybe I misread. It sounds like you are wanting to discuss ways to keep adults from joining religious groups. How could that be accomplished except through persuasion?

@WilliamFleming as many others have pointed out religious institutions often prey on people at their most vulnerable and needy times. By providing comfort and help to people that is secular - non-religious - they can perhaps deal with those situations without being suckered into a religion. There's no pushing on proselytising because these people are already not religious. It's plain and simple humanitarian assistance absent of any religious agenda. Kind of like a doctor just treating your symptoms without insisting you need to get down on your knees and pray for Jesus to heal you... Or an employer just giving you a job based on your merits and not which church you go to. Etc etc.

@prometheus OK, I understand. Sometimes people need someone to talk with when they are having problems. There should be counselors available other than religious leaders.

1

The most popular definition of religion for the past 2000 years has been: Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corruption. James 1:27

The most powerful ways that religion exploits to recruit new recruits is to show the need for helping widows and orphans while avoiding worldly corruption. As a society the way to make religion less effective would be to eliminate widows, orphans and worldly corruption, then no one could efffectively be religious.

Word Level 8 May 3, 2020

I've never seen that verse but in context in good old King James rendering (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1&version=KJV) it is bang on:

26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

It all begins to make sense: they are hell bent on as much COVID-19 death as possible - that means more widows and orphans. Plus they are anti-abortion because more unwanted children also means more orphans.

1

it has to be cultural. education.

0

Replying to my own thread but this case of religious exploitation just showed up... seems totally relevant to the recruitment topic: [pinknews.co.uk]

0

Sports teams and having gyms, free to use, is the new mega church come and enjoy motto.

Do they have purely religious teams or is it that American sports seems to be way too steeped in religious paraphernalia like pre-game prayers and preachy coaches?

But good sports facilities are easy and relatively cheap to provide. Europe is full of them. All school facilities should be open for community use too when schools don't need them.

@prometheus They play in leagues, many are against other churches, but some put together teams to play at county level amateur teams. Rec leagues.

0

Hopelessness and fear

0

First we have to start with the idea that humans are animals which evolved with a strtegy to gather in groups for safety. Like it or not our animal instincts are still active and working and are usually expressed as "emotions".

Religion's one positive attribute is that they provide people with a sense of belonging , which fulfills the instinctual need to be a part of a group. Thsi give them an emotional feedback of feeling "safe".

As much as we like to think humans are rational beings, most decisions humans make seem to be based emotionally, nto rationally. So, adults can fall into the comfort of feelign safe because they belong to a (religious) group.

The best way to counter religion is to form and provide other ways of making a person feel safe and accepted without religious belief being attached. The instincts to be a part of a group for safety must be fulfilled in some other way.

Now, the question is "How?" If rational people knew how to do this, chances are religion would hardly exist anymore. Also, most people still make decisions emotionally, not rationally, which further complicates things.

So, there is the basic problem. How else do you give a person that emotional need to feel safe and to belong, without religion. Especially when we humans seem to be hard wired to react emotionally?

Good points in my opinion. The rise of the ironically named "social media" has been a huge negative for actual social interactions. I rather suspect it has helped increase the lack of in person socializing. You can use it to discover local in person social groups - I attend meetings for my sporting, philosophical, work area, and ex-pat communities - but that is probably not the norm. Way too many keyboard warriors like my wife who hardly get out and find the church their only social outlet (thankfully not my wife).

I attend a group called beer not god - it's an eclectic group from lifetime atheists, young and old, to recent cult escapes - quite a few are estranged from their families and former communities.

In England for many "the pub" is their "church". They have them everywhere. Going to the pub is a social event. There isn't the same stigma with it like being a lifetime bar fly in America. You can take your family, have Sunday lunch in the garden, play games, yak the night away, etc. For villages that didn't have a pub they used to have social clubs which basically did the same. Not sure if they still exist much though.

And more local community participation - religion free - would definitely be a good path IMO. However it seems like wherever there is free association of people the religious are out preying on the vulnerable (and praying for them). I don't know what you do about that other being better at helping each other. Unfortunately that's hard and not something everyone is good at or has the time and patience for. The harder up the majority of people are the harder it is to find time to help and support others. Inequity in society just seems to feed people right into the hands of religion as a spiritual bread and circuses solution to everything our wealthy and powerful masters have burdened us with.

@prometheus I had a friend in college, who told me when he lived in San Francisco, there used to be a gay bar called "The Church". He said it allowed him (and his friends) to tell his (their) mother(s) he (they) went to church every Sunday. They just didn't mention the happy hour part.

In Portland Oregon, which has a ton of microbreweries, there is a Meetup.com group called "Queers and Craft Beers". They meetup at micro-brew pubs to socialize, and they also do fundraisers for local charities.

I think they neighborhood bar has been a place to socialize for atheists for quite a while. Up until the lock down, I'd visit my local pub at least three times a month. The only people I knew though was the wait staff.

I tend to agree with "social media" has made people less social. A virtual conversation is just not as satisfying as a real face to face conversation. Also, you learn a lot more about a person by seeing how they carry themselves, and interact with others than you do from a profile.

I remember before th einernet, bck when you actually had to meet people in person, and I managed to meet a lot mroe persons I considered to be of quality than I have using dating sites and social media. In fact all my "committed relationships were (started) before the internet. Of course in the middle of my last rel;ationship, I started to go blind, which means the internet is probably not as much of a factor.

@snytiger6 "The Church"... That's sneaky. Given how many bars are in churches these days (my niece had her wedding reception in one) more of us could use that line.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:491892
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.