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With or without religion

If you think it is possible for the world to exist without religion, please describe what you think society would look like? If you think it is impossible to exist without religion, what is it that makes it impossible?

beenthere 7 May 27
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5

That is not answerable. Speculatable, yes, but not answerable. For all we know religious practices is part of what turned us toward the use of symbolic language and introspection? But sure we can go on existing with or without now. Since I'm not using any religion, I wouldn't notice personally but given how I see so many people reacting to this pandemic I'm not so confident everyone would skate on through without it.

5

Religion is a human thing, and we know the world has already existed without humans, a mere two hundred thousand years ago. So, clearly the world can again exist without religion.

Can humans exist without religion? Depending on your definition of religion, I suppose we existed for a time, certainly without what we currently recognize as “organized religion”. So maybe that could happen again.

I don’t think we’re likely to see that happen though, before we go extinct. Whatever worldwide catastrophe that could send us back to pre-civilization is likely to send us all the way to extinction. I think some form of religion (not necessarily supernaturalism) is an integral part of civilization.

So, to my mind, a human world without religion is a feral world. Hunting. Gathering.

Religion enables civilization.

It may be that we eventually incorporate religious values so completely into our culture (maybe even into our genes) that we no longer need churches or even a conscious awareness of our resistance to our evolved animal nature, but, if we remain agricultural, and civilized, we will remain in some form of resistance to our evolved, animal, hunter/gatherer nature... and that discipline, I claim, is rightly identified as “religion”.

skado Level 9 May 27, 2020

What about our social necessity to congregate, tribes and raising children? How does that factor in to the hunter gatherer?

@beenthere
We were definitely a social animal long before we developed organized religions and the presence or absence of religion doesn’t change that, but religion, most commonly, builds on that social nature. Most religions are a very social phenomenon, even while some have monastic elements.

4

I think people would be much friendlier and more ethical without religion. Religion tends to put people in opposing camps. It also stifles ethics, because it teaches people not to think too much, and just listen to what the church leaders say and obey without question. I knew very little of ethics until I abandoned religion.

And then there is sporting events and politics.

4

A world without religion would look remarkably similar to the world we live in today.

@TheMiddleWay I sometimes wonder about that. I think religion deserves some props for holding down the fort and filling the rack with worldview/meaning configurations for those without the opportunity or interest to look for their own. Maybe that has made it possible for some of us to find something custom that fits us better. Could we have got there without that component of culture? Not knowable but perhaps not.

3

My hopeful hypothesis on a world sans religions would be a world where everyone is treated equally, not judged purely by skin colour or ethnicity, where true lasting peace reigns supreme and the Brotherhood of Man is no longer a dream but a Reality.

@Gwendolyn2018 No, it's just a saying and the 'Brotherhood of Man' comment includes women since without women there would be no men anyway.

@Gwendolyn2018 I totally agree with that. Time to move up to the 21 st century.

@Gwendolyn2018 Then, perhaps, one should, to salve your sensitivities and needs for Political Correctness, ALWAYS remember to state something like " The Congregation of Humankind' instead.
On second thoughts, that would still be Politically Incorrect, would it not, since the word 'humankind' still contains within it the 3 letters that signify 'MAN,' leaving out the female gender, the transexuals, the intersexuals, the feminists, the Eunuchs, the A-sexuals, Hermaphrodites and who knows what else as well.
So please advise us of what terminolgy we should be using in these circumstances IF you will.

3

The world will never be free from the ball and chain of religion. People aren't emotionally strong or intelligent enough. They need the crutch.

They are junkies.

2

Well, the towns and cities would have more blocky buildings with a lower profile; without minarets and towers. By now, men would be in the minority and kept in game parks for hunting and playing purposes.
Just kidding, guys. Humankind would live in harmony under the loving regime of The All-Mother.

2

with out religion there would not be any help for widows and orphans and worldly corrupiton would run rampant.

Religion ... pure and faultless is this: to help widows and orphans in need and avoiding worldly corrpution. James 1:27

Word Level 8 May 28, 2020

And to cause wars. And genocide. Think about that for a moment.

@Kilgore Must be your definition of religion that does those sorts of things

2

It is most likely impossible to have a society without religion. My reasoning is that someone would come along and once again just start making the crap up.

2

you should read yuval harari's "sapiens"

Started but found myself wondering if my time might be better spent on other things. Not that it wasn't well written and thorough.

2

Without religion you would see wars drop by a large degree (just with the elimination of the Christians and jews vs the muslims) and most likely an increase in science achievement and literacy.

How do you factor in the fear and greed nature of humanity? I would still think we would see wars because of that nature.

@beenthere I didn't say we wouldn't see any wars. I said we would see a dramatic drop in them. Wars for resources and territory will always be there because of human nature. But without the "my God is better than your God and will protect me while I kill rape and steal numerical figures from you" stuff we would see a dramatic decrease.

1

Without. There are many of us that already exist without religion. We are affected by the views and beliefs of religious directly and indirectly. Without it, we could live our lives the way we see fit without someone imposing their dogmatic views on us.

1

Assuming we survive, at some point in the not-too-distant future, I envision our descendants looking back at this period in time with amazement. They will likely be unable to relate to the control that religion held in our time, and it is this future that should be the focus of our attention. As a nullifidian I eschew all religion, but logically, there is necessarily a spectrum from the most detrimental to the least harmful. Let's begin with eliminating the foundation of orthodox religions, and go from there.

1

If you look at a world map of different religions, you'll see that all over the world the major religion is dependent on what you grew up with. It's not what you found while looking at the evidence. If it were, then the evidence would lead all parts of the world to the same conclusion.
If you look at a world map of scientific conclusions, you'll see that scientists come to the same conclusions when it comes to origins of species, climate change, weather prediction, space travel etc. if the world didn't have to hate all their neighbors because of their different religions, maybe we could all work together for the betterment of us all.
We could then all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya!

1

I have been truck by how religions have a strong secular overprint in that they seek political power or financial gain. I have been exploring this and have found that most religions also have a mystical tradition that runs in parallel with the established church. These mystics are usually violently attacked as heretics. I think a world without religion will create opportunities for widespread mysticism. It is hard to organize a church around this. Carl Jung, a psychotherapist who has studied the psychology of belief, suggested that Man's main purpose is to pursue a one-on-one relationship with god, and not outsource it to a third party vendor. See Jung's essay "Jung's letter o Job". He saw Job as the archetype of how man should relate to God, mostly to keeep demanding insight regardless of circumstances.

"Carl Jung, a psychotherapist who has studied the psychology of belief, suggested that Man's main purpose is to pursue a one-on-one relationship with god, and not outsource it to a third party vendor."

He may be right. Or perhaps a better aspiration would be to establish a good working relationship in which we develop excellent team work but never meet, along the lines of parallel play rather than interaction. I tend to see that which gives rise to God belief as being complimentary to us rather than like us in a way that would make direct interaction viable. But I have no argument for that, just my hunch.

1

If I suddenly had this running in my head, it's your thread question's fault:

1

History shows us that societies, if not without religion but where religion plays a much less part, have existed and were very similar to our own, equally hostile and greedy but for less fantastical reasons.
Conquest, land, ideology, tribalism actual real things, only the religious can be fooled in to killing and hating for no reward other than the pleasured offered in an imaginary after life and the mercy of an imaginary frenemy.

It seems to me that fear and greed are universal motivators.

1

We can reduce the influence and loosen the grip of religion on social and democratic institutions but we will never be able to get rid of religion in the society.

There are willing victims of religion in every society on Earth who are insecure, and hollow inside that need something to entrust their lives to. They will always look for a power that is grand, miraculous to remove their anxiety, difficulties and miseries. Education, travel, living in a progressive and advanced societies can reduce the effect of the religion's breeding grounds around but that vulnerable person will continue to seek out Gods, saints and miracles everywhere. It is a human weakness and tendency.

Religion took hold starting with the jungle medicine man because there were willing victims around. There have been around in every society for ages and they will be here in the future. They just need a reason to believe that there is a higher power who can make miracles for them. These people include scientists, Ph.D professors, other highly educated and well traveled kinds.

I think the only ways, we can win the battle against religion are two:

The State Lead the Fight - The authority must sanction the fight - in the old days it was the emperors, kings and the state, today it is the government, and

Stigmatize Religion - Make it a vice in the value system, make being religious dishonorable, despicable behavior. Stigmatize being religious to death. Make it part of the honor code.

How will that work?... Just remember the American government's fight against tobacco and cigarettes in the late '80 and early '90s. It was extremely successful.

This is what happened:

Tax and Regulate to Death

  1. The American government (Democrats) put the foot down and decided to lead the fight
  2. It taxed tobacco and cigarettes heavily to make it unaffordable and fund the fight
  3. It passed strict laws to make it unsexy to smoke - smoking in public places (theaters, cinema halls, buses, trains, airplanes, airports, train stations), offices, hotels, universities, and government buildings
  4. Romanticizing smoking in movies was discouraged with rule passing and rating systems

Run Effective and Persistent Campaigns

  1. Run systematic anti-smoking campaigns at all levels in the society - make it a vice, make it a heath hazard, make tobacco and cigarette companies to print health warnings in retail containers, make smokers unattractive, make the habit unlikeable. Medical associations declared it is major cause behind the diseases. The ugly picture of terrible effects of chewing and smoking was magnified and publicized.

  2. Be persistent, unwavering. All of the above was done month after month, year after year. State attorneys started suing tobacco companies for law and rule breaking at all levels. The public support started rising and in site of all anti-anti-smoking campaigns they ran, they got stopped by federal, state and local governments and activist organizations at all levels.

How smoking and tobacco use continues to hurt societies with either state sanction or state inaction or both can be seen in societies outside the US where corrupt politicians are beholden to tobacco industry and the politicians continue voting against any regulations against tobacco.

We have to do the same fight against religion. TAX, REGULATE AND MAKE IT UNSEXY!

Seems like there are still quite a few smokers. Maybe they have morphed into tokers of a sort (e-cigs & vaping). The state and religion look remarkably similar to me.

@beenthere
But the numbers have reduced substantially. Tobacco companies are seeking businesses in 3rd world countries where they can corrupt politicians to ward off regulations.

Its not a perfect comparison BUT I can see why you used it.

0

religion is roundly condemned in the Bible fwiw; politics requires "religion"

0

How many wars and deaths can be contributed to religion? Religion causes people to do whatever they want, as long as their "God" says it's okay rediculous comment.

I would submit to you that True Believers are fundamental to wars and death. True believers can be found in religion, politics, nationalism, tribes, clans, geography, etc ... We all have the potential to be one as we all believe in something.

0

For one thing necessity would require the government to have more effective social programs.

Educational standards and practices would be based on science and learning methods that have proven to be effective.

Only half the number of psychiatrists we currently have would be needed.

Politicians would be lost trying to figure out what the campaign on.

There are many more things that would change but it's my bedtime so I'll let others add their 2 cents worth.

0

Deeply ingrained need for some people who fear the present horrors of today

bobwjr Level 10 May 27, 2020
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