LINK Do we have free will?
Free will is such a profound subject that I can't form my own opinion.
I read with great interest the following parts regarding some arguments for and against the reality of free will:
3.1 Arguments Against the Reality of Free Will
3.2 Arguments For the Reality of Free Will
I realize that not all atheists are free-will skeptic but determinists are.
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44 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Did you ask to be born? As a decision making animal that in order to survive it has to use a go or not to go decision. Some are right, some are wrong, and we do both. Then they both lead to death...it matters not really which way we choose, there isn't much free will involved that i can see. Just another form of life that eats other lives, both needing protection from getting eaten. So what if we are a primary predator, it is our life and we can lose it the same as all other life can. Lets call it "subjective free will" instead of free.
HerbertNewsam
Level 6
May 31, 2020
1
I am curious: what is free will for you? Because it sounds like in your conception, free will requires for the individual to be eternal, unborn and immortal so that the choices made at every step of the way matter. It looks like you are focusing on the effect of the choices and not in the fact that there is a choice and a choice is made.
@Rodatheist not so, read it carefully. I am saying most mistake the decision making process as being a free will. it is a physical decision by our brains to prolong life as long as we can, that's hardwired by evolution for safety. And since we never had a hand in that decision by parents, to be born, and a god didn't have any doing it it, Free will is just hoping to make the best decision, that is pretty subjective.
@HerbertNewsam Each of those decisions is an act of free will. Why we need to make the decision and what is the consequence of the decision does not seem to be relevant for the fact that there is a decision made.
@Rodatheist I just don't complicate it. When in a forced decision caused by our reality(which is every single decision we have to make. Because matter keeps going forward, there is no reverse and the outcome of any choice is actually moot. I think it is a forced decision caused by evolution living in a very dangerous environment with the outcome of the decision being death no matter which path was chosen to take, so it is subjective to any data presented. If a decision requires any data whether it is good or bad makes no difference, it is subjective to that data. In the famous words of mankind "Oh god i hope it works" Well the god has never showed and don't expect one ever will. If every decision we have to make here is subject to our reality then that supposed freedom has lots of strings attached to it. It really seems to be subjective..... some evolution trickery going on....The decisions are an evolved process of our safety net. Always looking for be best thing or safest thing, we base our decisions on these things, more subjectivity than free will. Sure we can be idiots and jump off a cliff to say my freewill allowed that. nope just stupid. That decision was long removed by evolution. Can we take our own lives yup, that's not free will, that is escaping rigors of life. If the rigors of life are so bad to force actions like that, it is also subjective , is not a bad thing, it is just a thing. The pressures of life is
constantly moving us forward. Every decision we make is subjective to our being here. I just don't get this freewill shit i guess...all i see is strings attached by all the other beings here(not just people, even viruses) and we are all subjective to entropy. But i do get the mentality behind it, If we have free will, we are special.....
Although absolutely none of us was given the choice of being conceived nor born we do have the choice, i.e. Free Will, as to what we do with that life do we not?
@Triphid yes if the strings are removed, they aren't. I still say it is simply the misunderstanding of our brains decision making process. It baffles us so it must be free will.
@HerbertNewsam That is your take on the matter but I'm sure you can also see that others, including myself as well, do not have the same take on it as do you.
We, well a larger number of us imo that is, make decisions for ourselves using the reasoning and logic, etc, that is inherent in our cerebral matter almost every single moment of our lives.
Though some elements of our daily existences are governed solely by the Autonomic Nervous System over which, btw, we have no control, our conscious minds/brains are working, well for most of us anyway, continuously during our waking hours whether realize it or not.
For example, a person can use the 'free will,' so to speak, of their own mind to decide what to wear on any particular day/ocassion, a man can decide, also by means of his own 'free will' whether or not he shall shave on a Monday/Tuesday or whatever or simply forsake shaving and grow a beard.
One can also make the choice/decision using that same freedom of will to either become religious or not, is that not so?
IF you are acquainting actual Free Will with the religious concept as per the 'gift' by God so stated in the bible then, imo, you may be confusing the definitions completely.
@Triphid Well what we wear is always subjective to how we feel. We use lots of incoming data to decide things whether we are conscious or as we sleep. Everything we do is subjective to everything else, whether it is physically or mentally subjective. No i am not using the religious arguement. We are physical beings and are always subjective to our enviroment. Our mentalities are also just a physical result of our brains which is subjective to everything while we are alive. Death ends this experience
@HerbertNewsam But ultimately, most of us that is, we use our own minds via our 'free wiil/thought processes' to make such decisions as you mentioned.
Though, having said that, we must remember that there are those who are willing followers of the Fads and Trends of Fashion, etc, and only ever dress, etc, in accordance with such trends, etc, possibly because they either dread/fear being different to the rest of 'mob' or simply cannot encompass/comprehend, etc, the idea of being an indivual, etc.
Yes, we have free will, and I was predetermined to believe that to be the case. 
Seriously, this is a complicated topic and it hinges largely on how one defines freedom and free will. I'm inclined to say that we don't have free will insofar as we are driven in motivation and ability by forces not of our choosing. That's not to say that we're all equally unfree, however; I have freedom in the sense that, within certain practical constraints, my actions match my desires (which would not necessarily be the case if I were imprisoned or were acting under duress). /2¢
resserts
Level 8
May 31, 2020
4
I have always believed that we do have free will...albeit within the parameters of circumstance and chance, which can help to influence, direct, or curtail our ability to exercise free will. I think it’s a convenient cop out to explain and excuse our bad choices or bad behaviour to say we don’t have free will.
Marionville
Level 10
May 31, 2020
5
.....but if your "choices" are circumstantial or by chance, then how is it proven free will? If you are influenced or directed then your "choices" are molded or ordered to fit because of certain limitations. I don't think it excuses bad behavior. Laws are still there. Jails are still open. Consequences are still apparent. I think at best we have limited free will, but that's really not free will at all then. Also, how are chemical interactions in the brain "free will"? You're seemingly not willing them to interact. If you had a tumor in your brain pressing on certain structures and it made you do stuff you wouldn't "normally" do then is it free will?
@Piece2YourPuzzle No ..it’s not our ability to exercise free will to make choices that is circumstantial or by chance, that ability is constant. It’s the choices themselves that can be subject to condition or compromise depending on changing circumstance or chance happening. We may have to make a judgement call and alter our intended or instinctive actions because of either circumstance or chance...but we are able to do that because we are not programmed to act in only our intended way, but have the ability to freely adjust our actions according to changing circumstance. We don’t disagree on taking responsibility and suffering the consequences of our actions. The subject of brain altering drugs and tumours pressing on our brains is completely a side issue to this topic and not one I intend to stray into.
@Marionville Those aren't side issues at all. They are nature. One doesn't choose to have a tumor form in their brain that causes them to act in a certain way, and one doesn't choose which chemicals interact in their brain that cause them to act a certain way. That's all directly connected to "choices". Psychopaths brains show differences in structure and function than in non-psychos. How is that choice?
You have no proof whatsoever to back up your assertion that we have the ability to freely adjust our actions according to changing circumstance. An action is not proof of free will. It's proof of an action alone.
@Piece2YourPuzzle It is my opinion...which I am entitled to have, and you have no proof that I am wrong, If I think you are straying off-topic and don’t wish to engage with you on the side issue of chemical changes in the brain, due to drugs or illness, then that too is my prerogative.
@Marionville Fair enough, but I still think the evidence and reason points towards us having no free will.
@Piece2YourPuzzle That’s perfectly fine...we can just agree to differ I trust.
@Marionville Of course. I consider this to be a friendly conversation.
I certainly do. I've fucked everything in my life. Who else could achieve such success?
PondartIncbendog
Level 8
June 1, 2020
4
You do not beat your heart, you do not breathe and you do not operate the rods and cones in your eyes because it is all regulated by the autonomic nervous system. Try closing your eyes for ten seconds and without thinking of past or future where is that which we call I? This I is situated in and part of the "field" as physicists refer to it.
In practical terms in every day life we may agonize over a decision for days and then suddenly make a snap decision.
Two years ago in conversation with my niece she revealed that she had difficulty making decisions. When I asked her if it was difficult to decide not to make decisions she replied, after a pause: "f..k You!'
ASTRALMAX
Level 8
May 31, 2020
2
This unanswerable question pops up periodically for discussion. So here's my take on the more directly relevant question: Should we conduct ourselves any differently if we believe in free will vs believing in no free will? I believe the short answer to that is simply "NO."
I think we have to live with the operational assumption that for practical purposes we do have free will. At the same time, we "may" benefit from the insight of realizing complex and varied factors beyond our awareness shape how we understand situations and make choices. At any rate, I like to think that awareness helps us be less arrogant and more cautious and considered in our decisions. But maybe it just undermines confidence. Maybe it does both.
I think the initial question ultimately is a a semantics game. Does free will require deep insight? If yes, then we fail to pass that requirement If no, then who cares why we choose as we do, the choice is still ours.
Now what have we learned. I say "not much "
MikeInBatonRouge
Level 8
May 31, 2020
2
At the very least we have whatever it is which free will has always meant in common usage. In the law it is simply a matter of acting without coercion; if no one was holding a gun to your head to sign the contract, you are said to have signed of your own free will.
Of course we are not always rational decision makers. We are also emotional, feeling beings as well as beset with motivations we are not always privy to. But does any of that mean we don't actually make any choices. Common sense says we do.
This is a question to become engrossed in when you're a sophomore in an introductory philosophy class. No one should be worrying about that as they go through their life. It is ultimately a silly concern.
The classic way of showing how deep the problem goes is to note how even if we are free to choose, we are not free to choose what we want. Well of course we're not THAT free anymore than we're free to choose who we are. We can improve our character or at least our conduct but of course we can't arbitrarily choose who we wish to be. Since that notion is silly, so is the worry about being free to choose what we want to want. Ultimately who we are is inextricably tied up with what we want.
@MarkWD Agreed. Like I said, it is ultimately a semantics debate. Getting hung up quibbling over detailed meaning of "free will" to the point of ignoring its common usage and rendering the term useless. This sophomore grade philosophy question is meant to confound.
@MarkWD On the other hand, sometimes pointless questions can be fun, or good exercise for our synapses. I suspect that is part of the appeal of this forum. 
@MikeInBatonRouge I guess it is only the smug, entirely sincere insistence used by some people who discuss it online that has soured me to the topic. But you're right, as an intellectual exercise it has its place.
I look at free will much like I look at self advancement. One who claims they got to where they are at in life on their own overlooks all those around them throughout their life that conditioned their advancement. And all the tools society provides.
William_Mary
Level 8
June 1, 2020
3
There is no free will. You think you have free will but it is a delusion. In your mind you might think you are going home to have a nice steak but you get home and have something else. The very concept of advertising works on an idea of directing your will and it proves to be greatly successful. A rich person may have more choices in a certain matter than you do and a female may see things differently. Free will is not involved but everything in your past certainly is. Most of us have a different past than others and this is so because we are individuals.
Now here comes the concept of free will in total. It is a religious concept argued by the Christians because their god created you with free will. This is so because this god wants you to worship it/she/him out of the freedom of your own mind and not because you were commanded to. Without "free will" the religious concept will not work, and does not work.
DenoPenno
Level 9
June 1, 2020
3
You can't be helpless AND guilty unless you have free will. Free will ensures a societal judgment can hold you responsible for your actions.
Considering you decided to post this I would say that is evidence of free will
redhog
Level 7
May 31, 2020
3
No, it's not.
@Piece2YourPuzzle Thats it? "No its not" nothimg to back that statement up?
Then please use your free will and decide to go away.
@redhog What do you have to back your statement up? Don't you see the irony in asking for my proof? An action is not proof of free will. It's proof of an action. If you want to be an asshole then I guess you are exhibiting your free will lol
Well then me saying "the goat dances" right now . . . . seems completely random, feels random too. Free will! But, I also think if the universe were rewound back to my birth, than I'd still end up back here typing this right now. And you would be reading about the dancing goat, right now as well.
But our egotism won't let us really consider this: "I am SPECIAL I just know it! Different! (stomping feet)" 
A real trick when contemplating this: try not to use the words "quantum", "chaos" or etc. Using such in this context is akin to saying "its magic!" rather than just having the courage to say "I don't know".
Well. I gave peice2yourpuzzle a choice, he picked the wrong one so I made the right one
@Observer-Effect believe what you want. I honestly couldn't care less.
Love that block feature
Our "free will" is limited and is defined by the environment and society we live in. Did someone say Ice cream?.........umm,,,,,,,except ice cream....
PondartIncbendog
Level 8
June 3, 2020
1
I'm not sure it's possible to answer that question. What evidence would suggest we have or don't have free will?
GarytheGondolier
Level 6
June 1, 2020
2
I have to ask. You do realize what you just did?
YOu are limited by your choice. You can only choose what you WANT to choose. And you are limited by what options you are aware of and which ones come to mind. Your choices are shaped by your genes and environment. It 'feels' like we have free will but it's an illusion. Choice is just a result of cause and effect.
Most of the arguments I've seen against free will have been of the nature that we make many decisions before giving thought to them.What i gleaned from that article is that we are creatures of our culture and environment. I would counter with, that I agree with that argument to a degree but with time and thought we as individuals can throw away a life time of prior culture and beliefs and change about all of what we believe and that to me constitutes fee will and my understanding of it.
gearl
Level 8
May 31, 2020
2
I think that's pretty vague, but the bottom issue is always "change". We live in an place that is constantly changing and evolving. Every thought and decision we make always have some constraints or data presented that constantly make us change. That being the case free will is nothing but the misunderstanding our reality..
@HerbertNewsam Sorry, but that's very vague to me. I guess I'm slow but it doesn't make much sense to me.
@gearl i didnt think by counting every thought of tbe data stream coming into us as something vague, seems like a very busy place to me. Have a great evening.
If I have no free will then I can go go lie in bed and do nothing all week and not worry about anything because that is what I was supposed to do anyway. I can get drunk, smoke crack, and live on nothing but pizza and doughnuts because I have no free will and can't be responsible for my actions. If we have no free will then there is no point in trying or caring because that's just the way things are meant to be.
No... that's silly. My decisions in life, both good and bad, were not predetermined by events that occurred billions of years ago nor are they simply the product of physics. There are many things that influence our decisions and how we think and who we are but in the end we have free will.
Charles1971
Level 7
May 31, 2020
2
That's just it though. If you have no free will then you don't have the choice to try or care. So it's not that there is no point in trying or caring, but no way you CAN try or care through your own free will. Simply saying you did or didn't do something doesn't show underlying evidence of it being free will.
If there is no free will then those who commit crimes should not be held responsible. They had no choice in the matter. Punishing someone for something they had no power to prevent is grossly unfair and unjust. That would be like imprisoning a toddler for accidentally shooting someone. If there is no freewill then there is no responsibility.
@Charles1971 No, they should still be held responsible to protect others, but then again they will or won't be held responsible based on whether we have the free will or not to do so.
Whether free will does or does not exist is up to debate. Sam Harris did a great job explaining how in his opinion we can not have free will in his book by that title. He make a very strong argument.
As a Christian concept it can not exist. Christian doctrine teaches that we can do what we want. It also teaches that god knows the future. If a god does indeed know our future then our future is set. Even if we try to change our minds to trick god or fate , god would know that future, thus we can not make any choices that god does not know we will make in advance. Thus we are destined to do what we will do without any choice.
DavidLaDeau
Level 8
June 1, 2020
0
"Christian doctrine teaches that we can do what we want." Why then does it spend SO much time telling us what to do , desire or believe.
Sam Harris persuades me.
MsDemeanour
Level 8
June 1, 2020
1
Caption; "And this is how I grabbed Ken Ham by the back of the neck and bit him".
@PondartIncbendog I had to google Ken Ham. An Aussie! pfft. What a disgrace to our irreverent convict ancestors! Anyway.........glad you guys took him in. 
Nup no free will. I find it liberating, especially when I look back on my mistakes.
MsDemeanour
Level 8
June 1, 2020
1
i agree with Schopenhauer that we are all subject to a universal will/force. just like the lowest forms of life.
callmedubious
Level 8
May 31, 2020
1
"just like the lowest forms of life" ! Yes human beings are terribly conceited. Cats have NOTHING on us. 
To my mind the answer is both a Yes and a No situation.
IF we are followers of religion then, in most cases and in my opinion, the answer is a firm No in that the religious dogmas/doctrines/tenets, etc, decide for the followers and expects/demands that they follow without questioning or doubt, etc.
However, and also in my own personal opinion, those who are NOT followers of Religions do have a type of 'Free Will' in that we can elect to be guided by our inherent senses of Ethics and Moralities, etc, thus choosing/deciding for ourselves whether or not an action, etc, is right or wrong and accepting the responsibilities, etc, for them.
For example, I can use my 'Free Will' to decide whether or not I elect to 'sleep in' on a Sunday, what I choose to wear each day, when I choose to eat and what I choose to eat, I can choose, using my own Ethical and Moral codes what is right and what is wrong as well accepting the responsibilities,etc for them.
That, to me, is what Free Will is about.
Triphid
Level 9
May 31, 2020
1
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