Agnostic.com

35 8

I have recently come upon the situation of trying to explain my position on "religion" to a believer, who is a Mormon. The Mormons have a extremely elaborate afterlife scenario of eternal progression, of course, for eternity. How do you explain the nonexistence of heaven? GROG

GROG 6 Oct 6
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

35 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

In my experience, I had to not want to go to heaven. Heaven became unpalatable to me.

Did you have heaven and hell mixed up? I remember feeling that heaven was for everyone else. I had my own, whatever it's called? Imagination! GROG

8

I do not waste my time trying to explain logic and reason to the willfully ignorant and the congenitally stupid.

7

Trying to explain anything to a true believer who is completely brainwashed is absolutely a waste of time.

5

In my past experiences with such Faithfools as Morons, sorry Mormons, and the like, you'd be far better off, and have less of a headache, by banging your head against a brick wall to see if it would comprehend what you are saying.

5

I don't waste my time. Especially with Morons er I mean Mormons

4

I just laugh about it.
...and their underwear, and baptism of the dead, and the prophet named Joe, and how their rules from God change when the law changes and most of all Mormon archeology, nothing is as frustrated as a Mormon archeologists.

It, Mormonism, is just another example of how people can be scammed. My G-G-Grandfather joined Joe's cult in 1831.You mention baptism for the dead. It was at this same relatives funeral in Aug 1840 that Joe Smith proclaimed the ritual of baptism for the dead. Archeology?! Yes, where are the remains of all the cities and dead bodies that the BoM documents? GROG

4

I simply explain that I believe that the good that you do here, if it is rewarded at all, is rewarded here. The evil that you do, if it is punished at all, is punished here. and when you're dead, you're dead. No need to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Or an ignorant one.

4

My long-standing reaction is a smile and, "It's all make-believe."

Me too, if I have the chance. In this case, I'd like to make my case for the scam of religion. GROG

@GROG All religion is a conspiracy, consisting both of knowing and unknowing people.

@mischl Religion is a scam. The longest and greatest. The Mormons have optimized the collection process and suck money right out of the suckers' bank accounts. GROG

@GROG Do the Mormons suck as much money per capita as the Scientologists? You'll have to admit, they are both very effective money-making scams.

@mischl I have no idea how the two cults compare in money gathering, but I think they go for a different class of "supporter". GROG

@GROG Let's not leave out the Holy Roman church, the greatest and wealthiest religious organization on earth.

@mischl The money gathering of other churches, I only know of passing the plate. They must have improved on that? It amazes how the scammed cannot see the scam. I guess god gets in their eyes. GROG

@GROG Apparently, sending the money assuages the guilt.

4

I live in Alabama and as long as the weather is good, I go for a motorcycle ride nearly every Sunday and have breakfast at the same place every time. For the first year or so I got approached by bible thumpers about every other weekend or so and always shut them down pretty quick.

When they start talking, cut them off and ask them to show you proof. When they get about halfway into their reply, cut them of with “That’s your opinion and interpretation of what you read in the Bible or your preacher told you; not proof. Give me proof.”

Just keep replying with that. It’s rare that come back a second time. Never a third time. And I eat breakfast in peace now. The dirty looks most Sundays add to the enjoyment too. I did start tipping super well after the first time so I hope I haven’t gotten any boogers in my food.

Wear this with you!!

My objective is not to make enemies. I am trying to cure the mentally ill, if I can. People do change both ways. I even met a Russian Jewish couple who converted to Mormonism!!!. Figure that one out. GROG

4

I don't. I just tell them my personal belief is heaven and hell is make-believe and then I shut down the conversation.

4

To all those who believe in some imaginary heaven or paradise I would simply ask them why they don't make their way there as soon as possible.

4

I haven't attempted any of those conversations in a very long time.
I can think of much better uses of my time.

3

I grew up Mormon too. I don't try to explain anything... just ask questions...like you don't know.
This puts those questions into their mind.

Explain God's unconditional love for humanity?

Why do you believe heaven is designed like the Titanic (first class, second class, and steerage)?
Also known as a pyramid scheme?

Why does an all powerful being demand worship? Ego? A condition of his unconditional love?

Define being worthy?

Etc.

I respond to their nonsensical answers with the comment, "Interesting"
And just leave it at that.

Spreading the seeds of doubt. LOL

A Mormon from Pocatello. I'm from central Utah and my parents' educations were similar. Dad graduated high school in 1919. I don't talk religion either. In this case, this man is someone I was friends with long ago, and we have friends in common. He became seriously religion in mid-life and I am curious as to why. have you heard of exmo-lex? She is from Idaho and has a number of videos on youtube. She hits the LDS Church really hard. GROG

@GROG
I'll check it out. I went to Mormon No More and resigned from the church decades ago. Freedom!

@Sonja44 Here is one of he videos.

3

I would explain it’s like them not believing in another religion’s version of afterlife. For instance ask them why they don’t believe in Buddhist reincarnation.

Mvtt Level 7 Oct 6, 2020
3

The absolute best explanation I've heard was put forth by Sam Harris. Here is the part of his explanation that says it all for me.

"But there are very good reasons to think it’s not true. We know this from 150 years of neurology where you damage areas of the brain, and faculties are lost… You can cease to recognize faces, you can cease to know the names of animals but you still know the names of tools…

What we’re being asked to consider is that you damage one part of the brain, and something about the mind and subjectivity is lost, you damage another and yet more is lost, [but] you damage the whole thing at death, we can rise off the brain with all our faculties in tact, recognizing grandma and speaking English!"

2

I couldn't stop laughing uncontrollably at the magic underwear concept!!

My parents wore them. In those days you weren't supposed to take them completely off, even when bathing. Maybe during sex too. It was nuts. It has changed a lot I think, but don't know. GROG

2

You don't need to. Just say that you think it is a lot of nonsense and you don't believe in it.

I know I don't need to, but it's an opportunity to clarify my own position. I want to give him an opportunity to think ..... about all of the money his delusion has cost him. GROG

@GROG You are asking for trouble there. Most, not all but most religious people do not have open minds. But do have a go.

@Jolanta Of course, they don't have open minds. They suffer self-hypnosis. Somehow they convince themselves that they are SPECIAL, and that god loves them. Powerful insanity. Cheers. GROG

2

Start singing "Dream on" by Aerosmith. 😋

2

Does this help?

Definitely explains the problem, don't exactly think it'd help. 🤔

They do not read. Actually, Sam Harris sort of got me started to understand why I am a nonbeliever. The Book of Mormon is a muddled mess, and to believe it, a person must convince themselves that they alone are the saints in these latter days. Same old story, the End is soon to come. GROG

2

Wow, I have seen the older version of this song, and I can say, he is NOT one of the artists that went downhill as time passed by as far as his artistic performance. Both are equally fantastic.

What a coincidence, I know next to

e^(i*pi) - 1 = 0

about mathematics.

1

If they're ever going to recover from religion it will come from within. The best you can do is throw some doubt at them and maybe it will take root in the future.

True, change comes from within, so they say. In doing this I need to clearly understand my belief, because I know where he is coming from. He was once not a strong, but he changed. I will ask him what changed in him, from within of course. . GROG

1

Don't try just frustrating

1

I was raised Mormon, but I never felt I belonged, but even so it ws not easy to leave, as the church deliverately creates a social life for you, which of course revolves around church events. As I had al lmy social life arranged for me, it was really hard to cope with developing my own social life from scratch.

Mormons are like all other religions in that they totally ignore anything that contradicts with their religion. It happened in my case that at the same time we studied the old testament in church, in high school we were studying Greek mythology, and I noticed some similarities in story structures. After all what is today's Greek mythology was yesterday's Greek religion, and the seeds of coubt that wre always present started to grow.

I like this video as a way to help olant seeds of doubt in the religious. It shows that variosu gods and messiahs have nearly identical stories to Jesus.

i was born and raised in a Mormon family and a Mormon town, but did not get sufficiently indoctrinated. The LDS variety of the insanity is beyond belief. Glad to hear that you escaped. GROG

1

Theirs is the product of wishful thinking with no chance of their explanation being scientifically acceptable. E.g. how do you have thoughts in heaven? Thoughts have been proved as electrical activity, and for electricity you need the electrons from atoms that make up your brain. Death is the beginning of the dispersal of your atoms to all parts of the universe and beyond . So any thoughts or movements of electrons would not be connected to anything.

You can counter their theory of impossible Heaven by postulating you own ' Heaven on earth '. We are moving towards that very slowly and not in a straight line of progression, only really hampered by religion.

1

Tell him there's free Ice Cream and cake in hell?

But the ice cream is all melted and the cake is over cooked.

1

I just say "There is no reason to believe this, other than what is written in a holy book. There is nothing to back up the story. Additionally there is plenty of proven science that contradicts the story."

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:541164
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.