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For 30 years i believed what the bible said about homosexuality and that people that practiced it were going to hell. About 4 years ago, I left the faith. Recently, My daughter came out to me as bisexual. I must admit that it was a little uncomfortable to talk about it mainly due to my upbringing in the church. I told her that it didn't matter to me. There is still a part of me that feels guilty for not condemning her to be honest but i know that i need to work on that and i know i'm wrong to feel that way. That got me to thinking. I love my kids and would do anything for them. I don't think there would be anything they could do or say that would make me want to put them in eternal punishment. Even if they did me wrong and treated me poorly i would always want the best for them and love them and would consider it my fault as a parent if they went down the wrong path.

I see clearly how much bullshit it is to have a god that will send people that he made to hell. If god made us and he made us to like sin then he must be a pretty bad person to make us a certain way and punish us for acting out

abyers1970 7 Nov 9

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Most religions employ a carrot and stick method of indoctrination in which fear of the unknown is exploited to exercise power over the mind of the believer. Thinking of religion in terms of the game metaphor it would be equivalent of tossing a coin in the air and saying heads I win and tails you lose.

For me the image Sisyphus encapsulates the inevitable struggles that most people face when trying to practice religious beliefs, especially, those beliefs that relate to their natural biology. A continual round of guilt and expiation, like being trapped in a closed feedback loop from which there seems to be no escape until the light of reason clears the mind.

Life is essentially a learning experience and part of the process of learning involves making mistakes, apparently, that is how we learn. It is okay to make mistakes providing that we do not make any mistakes in principle, that is, irreversible mistakes. I cannot learn on anybody's behalf nor can anybody learn on my behalf.

When my daughter was growing up I use to worry about her. Now that I think about it more than 98% of the things that I worried about never actually happened. If tomorrow my daughter told me that she is bisexual would that change how I feel about her? It would not change my feelings towards her one iota.

Parkinson’s Law states that work expands to fill the time available for its completion. Guilt expands to fill the mental space available for its contemplation.

Inducing feelings of guilt in people is one of the oldest tactics of manipulators.

Religion and politics are natural allies in the heads I win and tails you lose bets.


Perhaps one of the most evil things religion does is to condemn and banish people for perfectly normal behavior.


There are no gods. Don't fall for that shit!


Made by bigoted people


I don't believe in god, but even it the deity of the bible, quran, and torah were real, I could not worship such an unworthy monster.

JimG Level 8 Nov 9, 2020

The rain has gone and you can see clearly now. It takes time to heal. Love and respect your child


I think the ancient Hebrews were very fixated on natural things being used for one purpose and that was that. Anything else was sin. Christianity bunched sexual sins up in a bundle and it takes an Old Testament mentality to single out homosexuality. Anyway, I'm happy for you and your daughter that you put your relationship before such out-dated thinking.


There is no god.
The concept of gods s a human invention to help us deal with the randomness of our lives, and the fear of mortality.
Ten % of the human population is gay, and then there are the other ways of being human. Love your kids, enjoy who they are.


My first Rule of Being a Parent is "Love your child/children NOT for what they are BUT WHO they are."

Yes That may be the key reason i left christianity. I could never imagine even making a place like hell much less sending my kids to it if they didn't mind me. Actually if my kids were to Sin (so to speak) and not do right then i would blame myself that i shouldve been a better parent instead of punishing them in an unspeakable manner.


there is nothing easy about retraining your brain or reprogramming the cultist thoughts which religion put there... but you're recognizing their source, using rational thoughts to get through this, and supporting your daughter.
I'd say you've made huge steps and will continue to find your way.
The voices pounded into our heads, in childhood, are tough to silence. You're obviously trying hard. Give yourself a break.
(and congratulations for having your daughter's trust, that's no small thing)


It really didn’t take me long at all to accept homosexuals when I left the religion. I met a few gay people and saw they were just people like me. Even now though, I feel uncomfortable around trans women. I have no judgement against them. I just have an uncomfortable feeling and I’m working on it. None of us are perfect, all we can do is try


Apparently like in medicine you can't practice enough to become proficient.
That keeps no one from trying.


I think it is admirable that when it came down to a choice between your religion and your kids, you chose your kids. I've heard many stories from children whose parents rejected tham i favor of religious beliefs.

Your kids were fortunate to have yo as a parent.


i have a question by which i mean no disrespect. it is just that i never have a chance to ask it of anyone who isn't defending what they say the bible says about homosexuality. what i want to ask is what exactly DOES the bible say about it? the tale of sodom and gemorrah is about hospitality and not about sexuality; in the same story, remember, it is perfectly fine for lot's daughters to get him drunk and rape him (as it was fine for him to have offered them to rhe angry mob). i know there is a bit about lying with men as with women but i don't know the context but i do know that there seems to be as much emphasis on not wearing blended fabrics as that. keep in mind, too, that some prohibitions were practical in origin, like not earing pork or shellfish (two good ways to get trichonosis if you happen to llve in a desert with no refrigeration). maybe the lying with men as with women bit was about population more than sin? i am guessing. anyway, have i missed anything? because i never see christians getting excited about sending people to hell for wearing cotton-poly shirts. if i ask a believer this, my question is seen as an argument. as an ex-believer you are in a position to help me understand what is really in there, and whether it is, as i suspect, being widely misinterpreted (which doesn't affect me, since i view it as an unwieldy and only intermittently interesting work of fiction, but which on the other hand does control the behavior of millions). thank you in advance for whatever you can tell me, and i am glad you are accepting of your daughter.


It seems that much of church doctrine isn't necessarily based on their holy book, but crap the catholics originally thought up and whatever the later evangelicals opted for. Their Christ never once mentioned homosexuality - which was considered fine in most of Greco-Roman societies. Suicide wasn't considered a sin in catholic church until the Middle-ages when so many priests started taking their own lives to get to heaven sooner. It's all just a conglomeration of bull.


#1. Congrats on your transformation. It was an evolution - not a sudden 'revolution" for me as well.

#2. Keep working on it. It's a constant thing. Welcome to the freedom of agnosticism.

Here's some favorite memes you might enjoy;


It is tough to break away from indoctrination. You are not wrong to feel that way it was drummed into you as a young child you were brainwashed and programmed. The fact that you are working on it shows that you are trying to break that conditioning. Sit with your daughter and explain your difficulties and why (she would have been exposed to the same conditioning if you only discovered yourself 4 years ago) because there may be times when your reactions might seem distant etc and if she understands what you are dealing with then she will hopefully be able to understand when you need some space to deal with your feelings so that you can respond in the manner you want to.


I grew up around people who were definitely non-accepting with regard to any type of deviance, (even though there was some hypocrisy there). After your mind is conditioned that way at the outset, it is still going to come back to you now and then. While I have talked to people who are clearly homosexual, it is not something that I can really relate to, but what I can relate to, that they do most experience is the oppression, the labeling, so my perspective is more directly shaped by my view of them as an underdog, an oppressed group of people, no different than minorities who are oppressed. Having grown up under a huge cloud of oppression and abuse, I can definitely relate on that level to any group of people that have experienced unjustifiable oppression.


You sound like a good parent .......keep up the good work. You have done nothing wrong.


A part of you that feels guilty for not condemning her. How can you do that and what would it prove? There is no god to "make you a certain way." Bisexual is not homosexual although they are related. What many people miss is that pleasure zones in the human body are much the same for male and female. Macho men usually try to deny it. Gay in either sex does not rub off. It's not contagious.

It’s hard to explain. If you haven’t been thru church indoctrination it would be hard for you to understand. In church, Condemning homosexuality is as natural as drinking water from a fountain and expected

@abyers1970 I studied to be a Pentecostal minister. That was years ago. Today I have no throw backs to it in sexuality or fears of hell fire. I do not have bad religious dreams, etc. A few years ago I was surprised when I found a man I knew in social media with the same background as mine had suddenly decided he believed in god again.


fwiw what is translated as "homosexual" to us is most likely a very poor translation, and something more like "bed kitten" or possibly "hedonist" would be a better translation anyway, and that would be a strictly literal reading anyway, discounting that the Bible speaks in parables, and there were no actual whores in prophets gone a'whoring, so strangely enough, Scriptural "homosexuals" might be referring to believers, who have all ("homo" ) accepted the premise that they might become immortals, There is only One Immortal...

and as for "eternal punishment," firstly i would suggest that eternal has been conflated with forever (by the same, deceived believers), when it stems from aion, meaning "a space of time, an age," and secondly there likely is no "hell" in the Bible, such as we understand it today; Gehenna is on earth, after all, and he who digs a pit for others to all into ends up in it himself


what I don't understand is if the bible says homosexuals go to hell WTF would anyone else care
seems to me if gays go to hell there would more room in heaven
consider how hard it is to change a habit
imagine how hard it is to change your nature

No one has ever gone up to heaven... so i suggest that most of the problem is translating the Bible like a believer chooses to, which we could even examine if you were to Quote this "if the bible says homosexuals go to hell" which trust me is not in there, except possibly in some very bad english translation

@bbyrd009 you don't know that I don't believe it but we don't have a clue
and I don't remember it saying that about homosexuals either its mans judgment and theory
I don't understand how ppl are so threatened by stupid shit like gay or straight


And those rules aren't made up by any god. They are made up by men, who make an income from people who can't or won't follow those arbitrary rules.


The best part of the Bible(s)???? They're fiction.

You can rest easy and be grateful to.yourself for not condemning your daughter. Even if you were still a believer, judge not lest ye be judged.

Condemnation isn't ANY mere mortal's job. Too many theists forget that little caveat in their Good Book.


And your next personal growth would be I suppose, to get to the point where you find yourself positively hoping that she will find someone she loves, who will love her in return, and bring lasting happiness and fulfillment, and bless that person for doing so.

I am sure that you will get there, and when you do, you will have reason for some justified pride in yourself, of the real sort which religion trying to keep you forever childish, could never bring.

Yes I agree


A simple logical question. Why is it thought appropriate, to give infinite punishment for a finite crime ?

Leaving aside the question of if your sexual orientation is really a sin, and if it could be a sin in a world where everything is given to you, by a perfect god, spin the logic of that how you like, if you have time to waste.
However bad you are here on earth, you have only one lifetime to sin in, and can only do so much harm. How therefore, even if you were to be, say, the most evil, cruel and successful serial killer ever, would infinite punishment, out lasting all the pain you caused here, by an infinite number of times, be appropriate.

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