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1 year after the auto-coup attempt of the United States government... How should restraint and tolerance of far right extremism be implemented?

How should we handle the seditionist movement

  • 2 votes
  • 26 votes
  • 20 votes
domos 7 Jan 7
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0

Here is an opinion that I agree with.

"As the nation observes the first anniversary of the assault on the Capitol, it has become standard to label this event an attempted coup. The term is inexact. What happened on Jan. 6, 2021, was not a coup but rather a self-coup. Coups are directed by other officials against the sitting leader; self-coups are directed by the sitting leader against other officials. I point this out not because I am a stickler for words but because self-coups tend to leave a more lasting negative political legacy than ordinary coups. We are very fortunate former president Donald Trump’s plot failed.

The dual-power situations that sometimes evolve from self-coups are especially dangerous, but even they can be alleviated if effort is made to hold the perpetrator accountable. Consider the 2010 presidential election in Ivory Coast. Opposition candidate Alassane Ouattara was internationally recognized as the winner, but the incumbent, Laurent Gbagbo, would not concede. Civil war ensued, which Ouattara, the legitimate president, won. Gbagbo was arrested and extradited to stand trial for crimes against humanity. The trial ended in acquittal, but enough time passed that Ouattara felt he could allow Gbagbo to return home last year to foster national reconciliation.

To bring Americans back together, Trump must also first face criminal charges."

Arthur Goldsmith

Brookline

[bostonglobe.com]

3

I'll be interested in the opinions garnered by this poll. As an observer outside the USA and student of politics and (American) sociology I an keen to gain a greater understanding of how Americans saw this coup.
In an attempt at objectivity, I can see the principals of the coup to restore the rightful POTUS45 to the position of CinC by armed force if necessary.
Yet, all the evidence supports that POTUS46 won the election fair and square thus, making the coup attempt and act of sedition and terrorism against the peace of the USA.
So what should be done?
MAGA supporters have become an internal threat to the rule of law as they would be unlikely to accept the result of another lost election and if they gain the upper hand would try to change America into their image. Trump or whomever will instigate Wytch trials to purge America of Democracy and build a royal lineage of Trump.

I recommend this guy's channel as a resource.

@domos Thanks, I'll try to take a look.

1

I don't do polls except my own. We address this mindset with what worked in the past. Infiltrate, re-educate, the courts, peer pressure, redemption. Democracy is always messy. Compromise is what sustains us. We must make the attempt. Light the candle against the darkness. Look at the long view of history. It bends toward justice. This is for our posterity. Can we do this before violence becomes the solution of last resort? I am not a hopeful person. There is no utopia. The struggle is endless.

Exactly in what context did this procedure / protocol work in the past?

@domos Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. We have moved forward in the great civil fights movement of the '60s. Marriage equality. Woman's Suffrage. Repealing Prohibition. Decriminalizing gay relationships. Stopping the war in Vietnam. Cannabis legalization with States Rights. Legalizing interracial marriage. Giving Scientology tax exempt status. All done with appeals to the government via the methods previously stated. Ponderous. Flawed. But its all we got. & a benevolent dictatorship is the most effective system except for the fact that power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely so we reject that as a whole. It is being threatened from within as we speak. Dude. It's a long haul to utopia which doesn't exist. We can only struggle towards perfection but never attain it. So why bother. Because evolution is inevitable. & when I speak of violence I am speaking of a civil war. Not the the violence on local levels as the Watts Riot or the murders of the 4 little black American girls in a church bombing. The struggle is never over. The price of liberty is eternal vigil. Democracy is constant & never crosses the finish line. It is open ended. A continuum. I am a pessimist in the short run but an optimist in the long run for history. We keep going in the direction of good. Unless there is a military coup. Then all bets are off & our great experiment in self rule fails. Whew.

2

A large part of the problem is far right news outlets like Newsmax and Fox News that deliberately put out false stories (propaganda), to mislead people.

I am not sure how to get them to stop. Every solution I can think of seems pretty draconian to me.

The best starting point I can think of is how false advertising is considered illegal, and is a legal limit on the free speech of corporations. If false advertising could somehow expand the limits of corporate "free speech" further, to make it illegal for corporations that identify as news outlets to deliberately put out false stories and information, that would b e a good thing. In short, make it illegal for corporations to knowingly lie, period.

Think about that. Tobacco companies can't claim that smoking doesn't negatively affect health. Fossil Fuel companies can't lie about how the release of carbon in the air causes climate change. The onloy down side is how hard the rich and republicans would fight it.

I have thought about this dynamic many times too... And I also don't like the ideas I come up with.

I think the downsides would be bothered in that.

What you are suggesting is effectively a economy based on scientifically verifiable claims or communication....

The level of accountability that requires is literally at odds with the social dynamics we currently have not to mention the pathological desire to avoid systemic accountability due to our history of discrimination.

You are effectively proposing a solution that will cause a spiral of accountability... This is pretty close to the federation and Star Trek. It definitely is not a utopia but does require some pretty drastic changes in human culture.

I have thought about such things myself and have not come up with any solutions to deal with the societal backlash that would induce.

@domos Yeah, there is always a downside. Back when I still dated, I'd ask potential date whether they'd rather live in a future like Star Wars or one like Star Trek. Most said Star Trek. However what was most suprising to me was how few persons had thought about what kind of future they'd like to live in at all. They just exist day to day without thinking about how their actions today impact the future.

If you like Star Trek, I recently discovered a science fiction writer, Becky Chambers, that I really like. Her vision of the future isn't war torn or dystopian, but is about various species trying to understand others and coexist. There is no "Federation" to work under. It is very different and leaves one feeling good at the end of each book.

2

Where is the tolerance but no restraint option?

As in I will tolerate any of your tomfoolery as long as it's pacific but the second that you become violent I will return that violence tenfold.

How can one tolerate without restraint. Please feel free to give an example.

@domos
An example:

I tolerated the QAnon, cult of trump nonsense as long as it doesn't lead to an assault.

The minute it did, I feel said assaults, on people as well as on our democracy, should be addressed with no restraint giving maximum penalty to those responsible and maximum attention to what happened in order to prevent it from happening again

@TheMiddleWay I would like to point out that the qanon movement has been associated with acts of domestic terrorism much less violent assaults.

Regardless, your approach can just as accurately be described as restraint with no tolerance.
You are effectively restraining your violence until your tolerance for their political violence is exceeded.

Fortunately for your approach, political violence is a feature of the American legal system. Especially, racialized political violence.

An explicit tolerance but no restraint approach is basically throwing the book or maximum penalty at groups the moment they step out of line with the status quo.... And while that might seem like the appropriate approach to the growing fascist movement... It is in principle the same approach that's been used to oppress Americans in the past.

Minorities are tolerated until they step out of line in some way and then the maximum extent of unaccountable use of power is levied against them.

I don't see a way to implement a truly explicit tolerance but no restraint approach without implementing the same type of oppression minorities currently get against the fascists. Which more or less plays directly into their narrative and will probably make things much worse.

But that's just my opinion and why I didn't include it as an option.

In summary, It doesn't seem much different than the "restraint but no tolerance* option.... Any attempt to make it different results in the type of oppression that plays to their advantage.

2

Dems and the MSM constantly tiptoe around what this is: The Christian Nationalist movement.

They refuse to call a spade a spade. All of the structural pieces (laws/ culture) are in place for this to succeed.
I don't see any hope of anything being done to stop it. Period.

I didn't vote in this poll

twill Level 7 Jan 8, 2022

I don't agree with this. I think it is solely and wholly 100% The cult of trump. That the cult of trump uses christian nationalism to great effect doesn't mean that Christians nationalism is behind it.

They are merely being used as they have been used by every politician in the past.

Trump just is a better user than other politician. 😉

We are being committed to these overt civil actions without our inclination that will most likely completely destroy these entrenched wealthy individuals who are instigating these treasonous insurrections, thinking they are immune to elimination, instead of taking care of the people who populate this country!!!

Then where are all the people of color who are Christians? Why weren't they there if it's about Christian Nationalism?

@TheMiddleWay agreed, trump also leveraged hate, racism, xenophobia etc . These have all existed, but were not “legitimized”

@TheMiddleWay I respectfully disagree. There is a growing body of research and historical events to support it may very well be the other way around.

The Christian nationalist movement maybe exploiting the Trump fascists for their own agenda.

I've even come across some antidotes that there are internal divisions within the far right movement along religious and secular lines. However I am not sure how substantial they are.

@domos Politics make Alliances. A generation after the takeover is complete, I'm sure the 2A Movement will move away from Christian Nationalism. And start the cycle of division all over again.

@TheMiddleWay The way i see it, Trump is their figurehead and clown face. The REAL work is getting done behind the scenes. The power, is behind the scenes. Trump does what he is told and keeps the spotlight pointed away from the seat of power through his entertainment value.

@twill I think it's a little bit simpler. For Donald Trump and the Republican leadership... The only way to escape accountability and maintain power is to be in power.

They have chosen tactics that are so destructive and extreme that any amount of institutional consistency or accountability will more or less cause them problems.

@twill

Trump does what he is told

Nothing in the past 4 years gives evidence that this is the case.

@TheMiddleWay For example...he picks his own Supreme Court nominees? It was HIS idea to move the American Embassy in Israel?

I will grant you your point on the billionaire's tax cuts....I think the Billionaires were genuinely puzzled by that one (But I'm pretty sure the Rep Party in general pushed it)

@Canndue unfortunately there was plenty evidence that these things were legitimized. They were just less explicit and more vague.

I would add that many formal and legal aspects of the justice system and immigration system... Not to mention domestic policing have had documented institutional issues in these areas as well.

@domos perhaps I should have said re-legitimized. They were always there but until recently they were being pushed out.

@Canndue There are many reports and indications that white supremacists were basically taking over state and local institutions like that police.

I think there's a difference between the perceptions many white Americans have that the supremacists were being pushed out of mainstream society then the reality that many people of color had that the supremacists were being pipelined into formal institutions.

Out of sight out of mind it's not the same thing guys white supremacists losing more influence. Case in point, just look at the discriminatory outcomes of the criminal justice system.

@domos that’s what I meant by re-legitimize

2

Obviously you are a believer of BULLSHIT! And side with the fascists.

The real seditionists, antifa/blm, are continuing to attack our cities.

Nearly 2 years of attacks, riots, totally denied.

Time to buy a vowel.

I'm sorry, there is no significant amount of verified evidence that antifa or the black lives matter movement have perpetrated any violence on the scale of what happened on January 6th.

No matter what those groups have done... They have not made themselves an obstruction to the critical functions of the US government.

@domos ..

Qanon much? Provide evidence that the seditionist attack on the capitol were the people you mention, zero evidence BTW, or STFU!

The real seditionists, antifa/blm, are continuing to attack our cities.

How many antifa or BLM politicians have put forth legislation to secede from the union?

Sorry but in terms of sedition, the far right has clearly overplayed their hand.

Texas secession bill formally filed in state legislature
Rep. Kyle Biedermann’s proposal would allow for referendum on Texas secession

[ksat.com]

7

Zero tolerance.
Moderate restraint, UNLESS they try that shit again.
If they do it again, wipe them out.
I'm done.

I keep thinking of the scenes from the movies about Elizabeth I of England. She came to power during a time when women were not considered equal to men, she was a Protestant coming to power after the Catholic resurgence led by her sister, and she had plenty of rivals who could take her place and return England to control of the Pope. The advice she took to consolidate her power was to act swiftly and decisively. She did and led England to the "Golden Age".

Of course, we have other considerations in 21st century America than she had as a 17th century English monarch, but the slow pace of justice in this matter is very frustrating to me. I would almost like to have seen plenty of these yahoos who are still going around promoting lies and sedition jailed waiting on trials as there actions are investigated. I am probably being rash, but I feel much as you have said - "wipe them out. I'm done."

@RussRAB The reason they became so emboldened is because they were never put down hard enough when they started their shit.
The moment they became violent (Charlottesville springs immediately to mind),
they should have been stopped immediately.
Not allowed to continue past that first night.

@KKGator If they had started to be treated the same as BLM or antifa protesters, beginning right after Charlottsville, the insurrection never would have happened, because they would not have had the courage and conviction to attempt the insurrection. Until the authorities quit coddling them, both in judicial punishment and street punishment, they will not stop or back down. Why should they? Frankly, I think our leaders in both parties are too afraid of cracking down on them, because they know how much sympathy the fascists have in the ranks of cops and military, so they don't want to risk a mutiny if they crack down on these pricks.

@RussRAB The thing that amazed me on that day was that a bunch of buses showed up late in the day and I really, honestly thought that they were rounding them up to take them to jail, but I guess they took them to the airport instead. I think you are right. Justice should be swift. Every single member of congress or the Senate who played a role in it should have been removed from office. That is the part that puzzles me the most. Why are they still there?

@RussRAB, @TomMcGiverin I think you are right that a lot of people are afraid of repercussions if stand up for what is right. I really feel that is true for Suzanne Collin and Lindsey Graham.

@MyTVC15 - Add to that list Kevin McCarthy and Moscow Mitch and the better part of their Party. Denial of the facts of Jan 6 and paying hommage to trump would seem to be a requirement to be a "Real" Republican these days (as opposed to a RINO).

@RussRAB If so much of the Republican party is undermining the US constitution and democracy out of fear of their own base... Then I don't think we should no longer be classifying the Republicans as a political organization...
They are literally operating as a criminal conspiracy...

@domos - I would agree in essence. With coordinated efforts by Republicans to suppress the vote and structuring vote processing that would allow votes to be discarded by few individuals, they are setting themselves up to minority rule (that would be a form of tyranny, imo) under the guise of "democracy". We can already find examples to illustrate the concept. I believe it was in Wisconsin where registered voters are pretty much split 50/50 Democrats and Republicans. But in the election to the state legislative, I believe Republicans had a very slight lead in the overall votes cast for there candidates, but they took over two thirds of the seats in their State legislature thanks to gerrymandering. This lopsided majority completely sidelines the minority party. Republican Gov. Walker was voted out of office in Wisconsin not too long ago and a Democrat was voted in. The lame duck legislature dominated by Republicans instituted changes to the powers of the governor transferring major authorities and responsibilities the governor traditionally held to the leaders of the legislature who, after knowing the election results, would all be Republicans. I understood this shuffling of power and responsibilities was carried out in a couple other states as well when Republican governors were replaced by Democratic successors.

What is lacking on the part of one political party (to varying degrees and at varying times, perhaps both parties) is a lack of integrity and dedication to the ideals of government by and for the people. The act of McConnell in 2016 concerning the filling of a vacant Supreme Court seat was unconscionable. Yet he described it as one of his proudest moments serving in government. Merrick Garland who was Obama's nominee wasn't given even an interview, a conversation, wasn't given any sort of consideration at all.

Now we have a former president who inspired a mob that trashed the Capital, threatened our elected leaders, and severely beat law enforcement to try to claim an election he lost by 8 million vote from the people. He was a president who ascended office 4 years earlier having lost the popular vote by 3 million - a fact brought about by the structure of our election processes. As if the insurrection itself wasn't bad enough, we now see Republicans denying the seriousness of the event even after the initially took positions that parties needed to be held accountable, and the party itself nearly requires denial of the events of that day to be included in the party. Liz Cheney lost her Republican leadership position over her refusal to deny the seriousness of Jan 6, and if I recall correctly, there were efforts to have her expelled from the party altogether. At the recent Jan 6 commemoration, Cheney and her father were the only Republicans in attendance. Reports that all the rest of them were attending a funeral of a Republican collegue, but really believes this wasn't a convenidnt excuse to skip the event planned by the Democratic House? None of them could risk their careers by being seen as honoring the officers who defended the Capital and congressional members (themselves included) who had to be evacuated while the mob threatened them with violence and death.

Yes, I believe the bulk of the Republican party is behaving more like an illegitimate body than like a organization that first must be loyal to the Constitution and the people of the nation. Loyalty to party must come second. Actually, I'd like to see all political parties be abolished and our systems structured to force representatives to rely on their voters exclusively for support. They are after all supposed to be representing the voters of their districts and not their Big campaign contributers or the party that supports them. We seem to have veered off from this ideal and going farther away rather than closer to it.

@KKGator Totally agree. The trump admin emboldened them, it will take a firm hand to smack them back down

@RussRAB An interesting stat that I came across recently is that the Dems have received 144,000,000 senate votes to republicans' 112,000,000 during the last three election cycles....a huge difference

PLEASE note that IDK remember exact #'s , It's memory here.!
Minority rule is already happening nationwide

So you are willing to give them a second chance?

Why don't you think it is too risky to give them a second chance to behave properly?

@KKGator while I agree with your point I would point out that it seems that this can be traced all the way back to the failure to complete reconstruction.

The decision not to explicitly and formally re-engineer the social culture of the South and its related political systems has effectively crippled the United States ability to iterate and adapt to change.

@domos I don't disagree with you. Particularly regarding the abject failure of Reconstruction.
I've lived in the South for almost my entire adulthood.

Change IS happening. It's just slower than molasses.
But it's still happening.

There are an awful lot of white people who are raging against it. They feel very threatened.
They aren't necessarily the brightest bulbs on the tree, and they're believing the lies that the "powerful" are feeding them.
It's a process.

Regarding getting a second chance to show their asses again. Sometimes, ignorant people only change their attitude when they're defeated and forced to accept that reality. That hasn't happened yet.

@KKGator given that the people of the United States sit on half the world strategic arsenal.... And a significant part of the world's economic stability....

Can our species, as a whole, afford to give them a second chance?

I personally do wish there was a safe way to give these individuals breathing room to decompress and accept some hard truths... However, their commitment to this pattern of conspiratorial sedation is only increasing... not decreasing.

As a result I find it hard to come up with a moral and ethical justification that allows for a second chance to be a viable option

As uncomfortable as I am she's saying it... I've reached the point where I am seriously considering accepting possible limits to my rights and freedoms if it means helping to quell this madness. The stakes are just so high.

@domos Our species, as a whole, has always been incredibly violent.
There's a reason for that.
Often times it fails, but sometimes it's absolutely necessary.
It's historically proved, repeatedly.

@KKGator So ultimately you don't think the actions of the seditionists already rised to a level that necessitates a violent crackdown?

@domos Not at all. The National Guard should have gotten there at the beginning and opened fire on them.
My point is that if they try again, put them down, with extreme prejudice.

@KKGator So I'm guessing either you have no f**** left to give... Or you generally don't think the consequences of giving their movement martyrs are too dangerous.

@domos A bit of both, actually.

Most martyrs have a short shelf life.

@KKGator And yet the Southern strategy was an effective multi-generational... Centuries long disinformation campaign.

I don't think the forces behind the seditionist movement should be taking likely given their past successes like the above.

7

No this was no "auto-coup", this was sedition and treason orchestrated by the then president who refused to accept defeat and tried to subvert the will of the american people. The slap on the hand being delt out to the few people yet prosecuted does not match the seriousness of their crime. It is a shame that the instigator is not behind bars, and probably will never be. As for violence sometimes being necessary, I think one has to fight fire with water, but sometimes you also have to fight fire with fire.

This is why I called it an Auto coup

Gven that they are all privileged white entitled americans, what any normal person would consider a slap on the wrist they will predictably consider it the harshest sentence to ever befall an individual in the history of US law!. 🤪

3

Violence to stop them makes you no different than they are. There should be restraint and no violence. Jail time would seem in order.

Nothing was said about violence. What was said was 'defund.'

It doesn't specify the source/reason for the violence. When I read it, I thought about the Capitol police having to open fire on insurrectionists. I would not only be okay with that, I'd welcome that level of response to people trying to overthrow our government.

I'm okay with meeting them with violence if they try again.
They don't understand anything else.

@JackPedigo Violence is mentioned in the third thing you vote for in how to handle the movement. Domos did the posting and set up voting with 3 options.

@DenoPenno Somehow I have and still missed the word 'violence' in the 2nd answer. Ruthless does not always mean violence.

Then by this logic, the allies no different than the axis powers of world war II... Right?

I think you are making a false equivocation. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

I'm thinking of making this a separate poll...

5

I am confused at this penchant to be "tolerant" for people who attempted a coup, caused death and harm to police and defiled the capitol building with feces. Exactly what about those actions merit "tolerance"? Why should there be anything except charges of sedition a trial and tossed in jail if found guilty? Who cares if traitors have martyrs if their martyrs are rotting in prison?

Oh wait. Most of them are white and we're talking about America. It makes sense now.

3

Why are you listing this an auto coup d’Tat???

When this was a very organized Insurrection within many levels of the Congress, Senate, police, Military, and units of the FBI and trumps DOJ!!!

These are All treasonous crimes against the US constitution!!!

Not one has been convicted of treason and insurrection against the people of the USA!!!

Any arrests were for trespassing and destruction of Government property!!!

In any a other developed country they would be removed from their elected or appointed office for sedition and treasonous insurrection!!!

All who took part on any level should be arrested and face the death penalty for sedition and insurrection!!!

The US Constitution spells out the consequences of this treasonous sedition and treasonous insurrection!!!

Let’s follow the US Constitution the 14th Amendment instead of making it all up as they go along!!!

This is why I called it an auto coup

The legal concepts of treason are not as simple as you think.

@domos
Read the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution!!!

It does not cover it all, enough to eliminate them as treasonous traitors!!!

Not every opinion is spot on or truthful!!!

If the DOJ would stop being the owned pawns of the obstructionist republican fascists, their wealthy owners and their corporations that are halting any actual Rule of Law!!!

The wealthy and their corporations are actually repeating what took place just over one hundred years ago!!!

Fascism is the marriage of the corporations and the state: translation the wealthy taking over the government by owning the politicians and the administration of the government!!!

Teddy Roosevelt warned and broke up the monopolies!!!

FDR bought about Social programs against the wishes wealthy and their corporations!!!

Eisenhower warned us about the Military industrial complex sixty years ago!!!

The right wing wealthy and their corporations are forcing us into this slow moving coup since FDR!!!

FDR received multiple death threats over and over from the same type of individuals that invaded the capital who are real member of this treasonous insurrection!!!

The 95% of the media in this country is owned by just six corporations!!!

All owned by corporations who are controlled by obstructionist right wing conservatives!!!

The DOJ has not done it prescribed duty under it’s Charted to enforce the laws, regulations, and uphold the constitution of this country!!!

@of-the-mountain I would like to say that you are very good at putting it in words. I'm kind of starting to wish you were in congress.

@MyTVC15 you want this guy calling for the death of rioters to be in political office? You are both a detriment to society.

@Tejas

You are one fucked up moronic idiot!!!

Sorry idiot I never called for it!!

I stated asshole they should face the death penalty, nothing was stated that it would be used!!

You are certainly one of the fucked up fascist!!!

Any treasonous individual who commits treason can face the death penalty, throughout the history of this country, treason has been a Capital offense!!!

3

They are certainly a problem. But a simple sentence or two "solution" is too vague to really address what should be done. It is a complex problem, which will require strategy on several fronts. So I did not vote for any of your choices.

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