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There are a number of outspoken feminists in the atheist community who have written articles and posted videos outlining some very negative sexism they have been subjected to at conventions and other events. I have some opinions on this, but I would like to learn what other women on this site have discovered or experienced.

Women, when it comes to sexism and misogyny do you find that...

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  • 37 votes
Deb57 8 Jan 9
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10

My experience has been that atheist men are more apt to hide it better. Being brought up in a patriarchal society where male’s are taught they are superior to female's right from birth, what else can they believe. Both women and men play a role in all this. I have found that even men who say they are for gender equality, as partners they usually don’t measure up as a true partner. Men want gender equality when it can benefit them to some degree. Of course, not all men, (tongue in cheek).

My husband is an atheist and a humanist but not a feminist. He thinks it’s “great” that other women work and gave careers, and I believe he genuinely he means it, but me? Of course not, my kids need me at home. He has evolved from when we first met 18 years ago, however. Back then he pressured me into dropping out of college because I wouldn’t need a degree to stay home with the kids. 🥴

@FreethoughtKaty Get your degree online and I hope you have a nest egg put aside. Just in case.

I agree.

@FreethoughtKaty Seems like 18years ago you had a choice. Today it bothers you, but wasn’t it your choice?

@Canndue I didn’t share my feelings so your question is from out of left field. In any event, “choice” is a highly subjective term.

9

Religionists will use religion to justify their misogyny and atheist men will use “nature” and evolution to justify theirs. 🤦🏼♀️

Yes. I just posted how men in atheist chat rooms with use PMS and menopause to justify the claims that women were ruled by their emotions and not as logical as men.

8

I had not been here long when I was roundly criticized by both a woman and a man who identify as liberals for expecting the use of gender-inclusive language. I blocked him then or since and have little regard for her. The objectification of women's appearances is another example of sexism practiced here. And just imagine the misogyny practiced in the Conservative Atheists group!

I had hoped for more.

I have had similar experiences on this site, but I had not hoped for more as I spent a lot of time in atheist chat rooms over the years.

@JennyRad Yet the the issue has been raised a number of times recently with very little support from the membership, in fact it is the very purpose for the existence of some of the groups. Makes you wonder if the old guys would approve of the ogling of their granddaughters in this way.

The Conservative Atheist group here is timid compare to the nightmare over at SLUG. Such talk would be soundly overwhelmed by supportive feminist men here. I have found that verbally they will stand. But in action it varies. I married a feminist man who did not offer amendments to the definition. He soundly declared his feminism. I waited a long time to find a man like him. He wasn't perfect as men don't have the problems regarding isolated stairwells, but I did make him aware of what it was like to be seen as prey by some men. He became more sensitive to the overall safety of women. I will never find another man like him. He was willing to learn.

8

I don't do polls except my own, but I have found that atheist men speak as if they are feminists but are less so in their actions. They do not have confidence in the ability of women to lead. To manage situations. That if a woman can do the job it some how denigrates the job. But I have found it less so recently as in the last 10years. The new generation has grown up with women's competency & are less narrow in their views of actual equality. Women generals, pilots, truck drivers, Governors, Speaker of the House. Competent. Seeing it in reality makes it more so. I had to win the boys over by never playing the menstrual card. They used to call me "Mighty Mite". I had to win over veterans who saw combat.
Never let 'em see you sweat. No whining if one is a woman. Evolution like justice is slow.

When I used to frequent atheist chat rooms, men often used PMS and menopause to denigrate women's logic and ability to think. Meanwhile, they were sending me PMs asking me to flash my breasts or engage in cyber sex. Yeah, certainly not influenced by THEIR hormones.

@Paracosm it is amazing how many men cannot accept a simple "no." I think that I have been called everything insulting (or what they consider to be insulting) under the sun. My favorite is when they contact me saying, "Hey, sexy/gorgeous" and when I respond, "Not interested," they say, "I wasn't interested either; you're too ugly." I write back, "So in addition to your other faults, you were lying when you called me 'gorgeous.'" I can't remember when one answered that!

@Paracosm Its the photo. Why so many of us won't provide one.

7

I find as much or more sexism and misogyny here as I have at other places that I frequent.

That just sucks

May I ask in what form? And compared to what other sites? If we're including the constant posting of naked women, I'd like to note that only a few members (who are not exclusively men) post them, and the only reason there aren't a couple people on other sites posting similar pictures is only because those sites won't let them.

@JeffMurray In the form of the written word.

@Stephanie99 The other sites?

6

Atheist men are human and older ones often still have hangups but religious guys almost always have issues.

The question was regarding degree so I voted for my atheist guy friends.

Thank you. It is about degrees. Most people here are answering a different question.

5

We could not get a Constitutional Amendment passed saying that women were equal human beings to men.
And women are now serving in the same roles in the military which was the supposed excuse to "protect" us.

If women voted as a block they could get anything they wanted passed. Anything. They are a majority and they'd invariably have men like me that would be voting with them. Unfortunately, equality for women or even bodily autonomy for women, both of which a lot of men would vote for, is not important enough for enough women to vote as a block.

@JeffMurray Voting as a block works. A minority though? Not as much.

@DragonDust Not sure what you're trying to say...

@JeffMurray A small group vs a large voting group.

@JeffMurray There are far too many women who are brainwashed from birth that their only role is to pass from the possession of their father to the possession of their husband.
They think what they are told to think and vote as they are told to vote.

@DragonDust I apologize, I still don't know what you're trying to say. Are you trying to say that women aren't a majority? Please expound so we can have a dialogue about the actual topic instead of this back and forth of not making sense to each other.

@BufftonBeotch That may be true, but mine is a conditional statement. If enough women cared about women's rights and autonomy as their priority, then they could enact any piece of legislation they wanted to get equality.

@JeffMurray I think I agree with your arguments as I've read them. I think 'then is' is a problem as you said conditional statement. The idea that if most people agree it should be fact. Somebody acted on it right? Belief is not the same as action, that couldn't be true is a common belief. Nestle couldn't fight against water being classed a human right, they couldn't force 12 year old girls to give birth, they couldn't chop down various rainforests, tofu couldn't kill a shitload of animals etc. But all these things happen despite common disagreement.
Most women aren't guilty of misandry but feminist (named for women's suffrage but equality is what it is supposed to be). It's sexist to not let a man pick his child up from school. Sexist feminists aren't feminists by definition at least to me.

@DragonDust I didn't really make all that out, but I'll respond to individual parts.
No amount of agreement makes something a fact. Conversely, no amount of disagreement stops a fact from being a fact. Women ARE a majority. IF they collectively cared about their rights and autonomy more than anything else (which, in my opinion, they should) THEN they could guarantee equality for themselves. That IS a fact no matter how many people disagree with it. The reasons why it hasn't happened also don't change it's a fact.

I lost the thread in the water, abortion, tofu part and failed to find it again after that.

@JeffMurray Sorry about that totally scatterbrained at the moment so it's bits of multiple rants smashed together not the most coherent thing to read... Multiple times. I initially just made a vague statement that meant a large voting block (like women in this case) could effect/pass whatever they wanted which you pointed out. By 'then is' or 'conditional' terms I mean that despite agreement/disagreement it isn't the same as action. I worry that a lot just gets left because people agree but don't act.
I'm up way too late and shouldn't be posting just replying. I honestly didn't think a voting block comment could go this far out of control. I suppose I am also scattered without a clear question.

@DragonDust Oh, yeah, agreed. However, they wouldn't need all women. They wouldn't even need most women. They just need a concerted effort to register and vote for women's rights above all else. They'd have tons of men voting with them because women's rights are generally aligned with all the things I believe in, so those candidates would be mine, too. Hopefully, as reproductive rights are taken away from all women across this country women will start to band together to effect real change.

@JeffMurray Agreed. Some rights are taken with no vote however.

@DragonDust By people who were elected or by people who were appointed by elected individuals? That kinda nonsense could be a thing of the past, too.

@JeffMurray Parties. Parties that were elected, that are made up of people.

@DragonDust Whole parties that consistently put forth people who take away rights and harm women, would simply dry up and never win another election. You and I both know the Republican party has shit on the rights of women, gays, and minorities dating back long before either of us were born. This is what I meant by the women would have plenty of men who would vote with them. I would LOVE to be part of a movement that would result in Republicans losing every single election, forevermore.

5

Most men are quite sexist no matter what beliefs they have. It is quite ingrained in the culture and upbringing of men.

A man has to take an extra step to think and act beyond how the culture expects them to act. Most men are not willing to put forth that effort.

Having said what I have just said, I do not think a man is sexist just because he disagrees with a woman on a topic. What makes it sexist is the manner in which he expresses that disagreement. In other words, we can not all think or agree all the time, but we should try to express our disagreements respectfully. Needless to say, this idea is rarely done on this website. I confess that I write disrespectful responses way too often. Yes, I will try to reduce this.

I agree on the issue of sexism being ingrained in the culture.

A man is not sexist because he disagrees with a woman; it is how the disagreement is couched. I dislike it when men patronize me, insinuate, or outright tell me that I don't know what I am talking about because I am female.

By the way, I have been accused of being patronizing and I think it is the teacher that comes out in me. I try to work on that, as well. On the other hand, if a man is patronizing to me because I am female, I summon the teacher and am intentionally patronizing.

5

OK, since I have some peoples attention can we get personal and can I get an assessment from those who have read my posts. Do not worry about hurting my feelings as I have asked for it. I an really curious how I come across as I do not work on any agenda or set of perceptions other than what I have put forth. Be honest, please.

I can't recall any instance where any comment or post you have made has offended me. The fact that you ask this question means that this matters to you, which is commendable.

Relax, my friend--I cannot remember a time when you have been sexist. However, if do in the future, I know you well enough to say, "Hey, dude, listen to yourself!" Don't think it will happen.

@Gwendolyn2018 I used to be a lot different than I am now. I have always wanted to treat people well no matter their background or history. I lived on Indian Reservations and have seen poverty, seen what the government has done to people who have something they want. When I was under eleven I rode on the bus with a black woman who helped my grandmother. I went to her house and played with her children, giving it no thought. I was asked to sit in the front of the bus, with the white people. I told the man that it was much more fun in the back as one would fly out of the seats when going over a bump. There is enough stupidity and violence in the world and I will not give it more access unless I am forced by my principles.

5

I don't doubt anyone's experience with sexism. I would hope as skeptics and atheists that we have a greater capacity to learn and change, but we're all a product of our environment. It's hard to recognize one's own privilege.

5

I can't speak for everyone , but of the people I've met , it seems to me , men and some women want it both ways . Men seem to want women to do the greatest part of both holding a job , but she should be paid less than him . She should be responsible for the monumental portion of taking care of the family , after she gets home from her job , while he sits in front of the TV , but she should worship him for any miniscule thing he does . She should be willing to let go of the family that raised her , and move to where ever he lives , while he can't live without daily conferences with his Mommy . Personally , I would prefer to honestly respect the man I'm with , but they seem determined to make that as difficult as possible . It's hard to respect and trust someone who lies to you . It's hard to love someone who's goal in life seems to be to ridicule you no matter how much good you accomplish , while he isn't accomplishing anything . For instance , I was helping my husband working at a second job and was critized when I got home , because the employer greatly complimented me , which my husband claimed , made him look bad .

Not all men think those things.
I would love to have a woman that has a great job and gets paid according to her skill and value.
I want her to provide exactly zero care for our zero children. And I would love to equally split our combined chores based on what each of us are better and and like to do more (e.g. if she can't boil an egg, I'd be more than happy to do the cooking or if she's interested, cooking with her to teach her my tricks).
I'm perfectly fine moving to her and being with her family. I have very little left anymore, but being with the person I'd love most in the world would be my top priority, whatever that entailed.
My greatest wish is to find a woman who is my ride or die person. Us against the world. Even when we disagree we'd still have each other's back 100% from everyone else's perspective and then worry about working it out when we're alone because no one else will ever mean more to each other. Always trying to make each other look their very best. I have seen couples like that and envy it more than anything else in the world. But to have that, you have to be that.

I have been single for a long time, but my last two boyfriends assumed I would want to marry or live together one day--even though I said I would not--because I am a woman and that's what women want.

Men who contacted me on dating sites often told me that if we had a serious relationship, I would "not have to work," and a couple told me that would not "let" me work. I had no interest in these men, never talked to them on the phone, and never met them, but yet, after one email, they were dictating my life!

@JeffMurray Notice your choice of words. I would love to "have" a woman. Do you think of your woman as a possession? Then you say that your woman would have your back 100% in public even if you disagree. You want your woman to fit a mold that you have already made for her. You don't want an equal with whom you would form a relationship based on both your needs and wishes. It is hard to think for oneself without influence of all the conditioning that we grow up with. But, that is not considering women as equals.

@Stephanie99 And I, her back in the same scenario. I think you're reading too much into verbiage. "Have a" is very common shorthand for "be in a relationship with". That's neither here nor there, as I should be dead long before anything like that could ever possibly materialize for me.
Also, everyone has molds for their potential partner, they're called deal breakers. Some people have more superficial ones like 'he needs to have a full head of hair' or 'she needs to be a size zero' while others are based on content like 'they need to want/ not want children' or 'they can't be socially conservative'. Sorry one of mine is that I'd prefer to be in a relationship where we didn't tear each other down in front of other people, I'm such a monster.

4

You get what you ask for on here....treat me like crap & you get it back in spades, too bad so sad......
Then you call me a name or two & stomp off......Such a big loss, just Yhugh!
I never think if it is "sexist" or not, just asshat-ness........

4

It’ 2022, and a shame that some of these behaviors still exist, same for racism, ageism and any other ism you can name. I would hope we’ve made some progress, but civil rights is only 50 years old and and these beliefs have been ingrained for generations. It’s good to bring these out in discussion and civil debate. Maybe, just maybe some of us old bucks can learn something….

4

I can't understand how the vote is turning out the way it is. You do all know that religious people all over the country are trying to turn women into forced fetus incubators, right? What the fuck is happening right now to our ability to compare and contrast?!?

This issue goes beyond abortion. I knew few atheist men in real life, but I have been visiting atheist chat rooms, etc., for 15 years or so. Atheist men are every bit as condescending toward women as are religious men. I have been attacked for being an "uppity" woman, been told that my opinion does not count because as a woman, my logic is faulty, and have been stereotyped as needing to stay in the kitchen where women belong. I have seen this done to other women, as well.

My worth has also been judged by my looks and how "sexy" I am. This site is not so bad in this aspect, but in visiting chat rooms, I was generally treated differently because men perceived me as attractive/sexy. This was triple edged sword, though, because I got more attention, but was seen as more a sex object and my intelligence and my education was ignored.

There is nothing wrong with MY ability to compare and contrast: atheist might or might not be anti-abortion, but that doesn't mean that they are not sexist.

@Gwendolyn2018 The question didn't ask if there were any atheist men that are sexist, it asked if atheist men are more into gender equality. Even if everything else was the same, having a much larger percentage of atheist men than religious men who don't want to turn women into incubators should be enough to satisfy the more part of this equation.

@JeffMurray and I am saying that atheist men have more often displayed sexist aspects than non sexist attitudes. I see no proof statistically or from personal experience that atheist men are more pro-gender equality than are religious men.

Atheist men are every bit as likely to hit on a woman and persist if she says "no." They are every bit as likely to make inappropriate remarks and exhibit inappropriate behavior. Sexist attitudes and behavior are not separate from "gender equality," i.e. support abortion rights or equal wages.

@Gwendolyn2018 So there's no evaluation of degrees for you here? I mean if someone said they think black people should only get 3/5ths of a vote and another person said black people should all be owned by white people, there's no doubt they're both racist piles of shit, but one of them is definitely worse than the other.

@JeffMurray this is hard to quantify, but here are some findings:

"More recent news describing an incident at a 2011 atheist conference also suggests there may be a disconnect between atheist men’s verbal support of gender equality and their actual behavior." [I would say it it more than "may be."]

file:///E:/Downloads/11-18-1-PB.pdf

"More recent news describing an incident at a 2011 atheist conference also suggests there may be a disconnect between atheist men’s verbal support of gender equality and their actual behavior. Rebecca Watson, after giving a speech about atheism, was approached in a hotel elevator by a male atheist who invited her to his room. Watson (2011a) spoke about this incident in a video posted on her blog, making light of it but also suggesting “Hey guys, don’t do that” because it is “creepy.” Watson’s blog entry led to an extensive “internet war” (McCreight, 2011; Watson, 2011b) within the online atheist community. Some thought the incident was not troublesome and blown out of proportion by Watson, while others thought it demonstrated sexism (Winston, 2011). The conflicting perspectives about whether atheism is “good” for women suggest thoughts about gender equality within the atheist community are varied and complex. Despite the general support for gender equality from the atheist
community, not all atheists or feminists agree about the relationship between atheism and feminism."

[The "incident" was alluded to in the previous article.]

file:///E:/Downloads/StinsonGoodmanBerminghamAli2013.pdf

By the way, atheist men have felt free to tell sexist/dirty jokes when I can't think of a religious man who ever did that. They also have used the line, "C'mon, you don't believe in god--there's no morality attached to having sex with me." In fact, a man posted a thread on this site saying that he couldn't understand why atheist women were so uptight about sex.

@JeffMurray degrees? So if an atheist man badgers me when I have told him no, that is unimportant? I will also relate an experience that happened to me that I have also shared previously. I met a guy from a dating site who drove from St. L. to Springfield to meet me. He identified as "non-religious" as I did not meet Xtian men from dating sites. I paid for my own lunch and after we had lunch, we went to B&N to talk for awhile. When we left B&N, he grabbed me and stuck tried to stick his tongue down my throat. I angrily pushed him away and stalked to my car with him tagging behind, saying how HE wanted to do that since he met me. When he got home, he sent me an email saying that if we were going to date, he expected me to not only pay for my lunch, but to pay for half of the gas for his trips. Oh, yeah, he was into "gender equality," but he was sexist as hell.

SOME atheist men are as sexist and misogynistic as are SOME religious men, and that was the focus of the poll.

@Gwendolyn2018 You should know better than most that anecdotal evidence is one of the worst forms.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the focus of the poll. If you're right, and that was what was intended, it was horribly worded.

@Gwendolyn2018 And no, I'm not discounting your personal experiences. If men were shitty to you, that's not right, and it doesn't make it any better or worse if they believed or didn't believe in something generally unrelated. But I also don't think having these experiences should make us ignore aggregate data.

@JeffMurray I know that anecdotal/personal experience can be logical fallacies, but when my experience is echoed in what other women have told me and what I have read/researched about attitudes toward women that have been in place for millennia, my experiences are validated. If my experiences were isolated, I would know it.

You've presented no data that atheist men are any less sexist than are religious men.

The vote is now 15 to 4 that religious/atheist makes no difference.

@JeffMurray "less than" depends on perspective. To a man, maybe it's a big deal that a man is pro choice. As a woman, it's at least a important to me how he treats a woman personally. Personal behavior may affect women more than the political belief of one man about choice.

@JonnaBononna There has to be a hierarchy here. If slave owners were super nice to their slaves on a personal level that would really be preferable to someone who wasn't as nice but believed they should have freedom?? This is not simply a "political belief". This is about taking freedom away from women and wholly reducing them to objects. No amount of "being nice personally" should mean a thing if there isn't a fundamental base of believing women deserve autonomy. Personal feelings shouldn't cloud out facts, here. In the results of a Pew research study seen here, 87% of atheists believe abortion should be legal in all/most cases while only 53% of everyone does. This means that the religious would have to be even lower to make the average 53%. So there's a huge percentage more theists than atheists that think women should be reduced to objects. I can't understand how that's not a prerequisite here.

@JeffMurray if they REALLY believe a woman should have choice, they wouldn't treat women as objects. I don't think there needs to be a hierarchy, with women or with slaves. Being "nice" to your slaves doesn't make one better than one who isn't. Both think of them as less than human and own them. I don't think a man who wants a woman to do everything for him is better than a man who thinks he has the right to rape women. Both are pieces of shit, but in different ways.

@JonnaBononna You don't think a rapist is worse than a man who expects his wife to do everything?!?

@JeffMurray both are against the rights of women.

@JonnaBononna I don't disagree, but there are degrees to things. Speeding and murder are both illegal, should we view them the same way and have the same punishment for them? You really don't see that this line of argumentation has gone off the rails here?

@JonnaBononna And also, no, they are not both against the rights of women. If a man thinks a woman should do everything for him, he'd still need to find a willing woman. If a man thinks it's okay to rape women, he doesn't. Those two things aren't even in the same ballpark.

@Gwendolyn2018 But, Gwen, if my mommy would have had an abortion I might not be here. That sentence alone is at the heart of this one because men know that women really are in control and they do not like that control. They also do not trust women to do the right thing.

@DenoPenno bingo. And the people who feel this way don't seem to realize that if a different sperm got to the egg first, said person would not exist.

@DenoPenno Do the right thing? It's shit like that that makes men look bad. Why should anyone other than the person with the fetus in them be the arbiter of what the right thing is?

@JeffMurray I'm not talking criminality. Obviously from a legal, criminal standpoint rape and wanting a woman to be your servant are not the same. But the post is about sexism and misogyny, not criminality. Both the rapist and the guy who wants a woman to be his servant are sexist and misogynistic. Sexism is Sexism, there is no 1-10 scale.

@JeffMurray as the person you claim "horribly worded" the post. There is no mystery as to what was meant, and every woman on the site understood it. It appears that you might not like the wording because you're not finding it easy to spin the meaning to fit your argument.

@JonnaBononna I fundamentally disagree. You really feel that any amount of sexism, even if it was exhibited unknowingly, is equivalent to the worst possible form of intentional behavior (like rape, as you suggested)? In your mind, a man who holds the door open for one sex, but not the other, is just a bad as a man who instead of holding the door, knocks a woman down on the ground and rapes her?

I think the push back between the Ultra-woke and even the progressive left proves there are degrees to these things.

But even if none of this convinces you, you really don't think the potential of alienating allies in men who generally try their best by saying their minor transgressions (which may not even negatively impact women's rights) are just as bad as forcible rape making them think "nothing will ever be good enough, so why even bother" is reason enough for you to at least not display such beliefs publicly?

Am I really alone in thinking "women should do the dishes" and "I'm going to forcibly rape women because they are nothing but objects for my pleasure" are vastly different things??????????

@Deb57 Not every woman understood what you meant, I promise you that. Not only do I have private messages I won't share, but even in the comments you have women that are saying sexism is sexism and there are no degrees, and women who say there are degrees to it and that's why they sided with the atheist men. Don't you read the comments on your own post??

And I don't need to spin anything. I answered what was asked. If you wanted to ask if atheist men can be sexist, too, I'd have unequivocally agreed. But that's not what you asked. You asked if atheist men are more into gender equality.

@JeffMurray I am reading the comments. I'm not interested in you and your private messages. I'm not interested in your condescending attitude. The poll was not about you. I'm always fascinated, though, when men make a situation all about themselves. If you felt the need to jump up and defend yourself about something that was never directed at you, it's evident that it struck a nerve. And rather than sit back and silently read the comments posted here by so many women, you made this about yourself.

@Deb57 You're obviously not because you said EVERY WOMAN on this site understood but there is proof right in the comment section that there isn't a concensus on what you were asking.
I don't know how you think this is about me. I answered your question (as written) and responded to the content of others comments. The only time I talked about myself was when people seemed to lump all men together with something that I don't fit into.
I'm on women's side with almost everything (especially legislatively) and I'm still getting shit on here for making claims that I even backed up with Pew research study results. That may be part of the impediment to progress. Several women here seem to have no problem shitting on allies for having any tiny deviation from their ideal mold of an ally.

3

I think atheist men would be on average more progressive, since sex bias is written into the Bible that believers see as authoritative.

Sex bias is written n the Bible, but it is also a cultural standard. I have been subjected to many sexist aspects in atheist chat rooms in the last 15 years and more.

@Gwendolyn2018 Oh for sure, there are plenty of backward thinkers in both camps but sexism is the default in Christianity, Hinduism and many other religions so it's just one more hurdle.

@Buttercup yes.

@Gwendolyn2018 I agree, especially about the ones who believe their point of view can enlighten you because you're just a woman, after all. This is never said out loud, but inferred. They always have to have the last word.

@Organist1 I was called a man basher because I used the term "mansplaining," and yet, I have been subjected to mansplaining over and over and over and over for decades. The inference is always that I am ignorant on any issue ranging from menopause (no kidding!) to quilting to refinishing furniture to managing money. An ex BF once argued with me that something was wrong with my dryer because it took so long to dry his jeans when he housesat for me. I told him it was because industrial dryers in laundromats got hotter and dried clothes faster but noooo . . . he was still telling me that I needed to get my dryer fixed days later.

I am sure that some women 'splain things to men, but I bet that few men have had his intelligence, logic, and knowledge questions as much as I have for decades.

@Gwendolyn2018 I share your pain! I think men have been so used to being the authority on everything for so long, that they have a hard time giving it up. It was worse for me in the 1970s as a young piano tuner at a concert venue, when the other crew members often assumed I was a groupie, and I constantly had to explain that I was only there to work on pianos and leave as soon as possible! Also, as a keyboard player in a band, of course, people who didn't know me assumed I didn't know what I was doing, despite having a Masters degree in music. Now I just keep my mouth shut and let my keyboard skills do the talking. It's easier that way, except now they want me to figure out their parts for them. Arrgghh! I can't win.

@Organist1 I totally understand. I teach college and university classes. Almost every time a man has asked me what I do for a living and I say, "I teach," he has asked, "Which grade?" When I say that I teach uni courses, some of their eyes have bulged slightly. Then, I add, "I'm smarter than I look." To be fair, some have asked, "What do you teach?" However, no woman has asked me "which grade?" but asked "what do you teach?"

@Gwendolyn2018 Wow..,.yes, that's awful. How condescending!

@Organist1 yes, but I always let them know that in reality, I am smarter than they are. (Evil grin.)

Sex bias existed long before christianity.

@creative51 So? Racism existed before America, but that doesn't mean there isn't a strong association between America and racism...

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In the beginning of my social atheism (joining groups/clubs/online communities) I thought I would naturally find less neanderthal types but I was sadly wrong. I thought logic dictated that anyone who sought out reason in being skeptic about religion would be skeptical of all types of indoctrination. No. I do think I understand one reason for the sexism though, it's the previous religion habit. They may have given up god beliefs but they haven't given up the power of being the top of the pyramid socially, culturally and financially.

Most non-feminist men fear equality because they fear females in power will treat them as they've treated women all through history.

Leelu Level 7 Jan 11, 2022
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This question is only aimed towards women??? How sexist!!!

Seems like an awful lot of men have still commented, for it being so sexist.

@Deb57 had a RIGHT to address "only women".
It's NOT "sexist".
So why must you weight in and suggest so? Are you worried about being "left out"?
You see what kind of churn it creates that serves NO Purpose - other than to irritate?
Geesh.

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I was "wokefished" by an atheist recently. My son concurs.

Geez, learn something new every day.

I experienced the same recently, it was quite disheartening.

New word. Cool.

@Deb57 It really applied to this guy, who professed feminist views strongly, but who acted like the same old male chauvenist cheater and liar we have come to know so well. 😟 Why can't they just be honest?!?

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If I may offer a man's perspective. If not, I will anyway. A lot of women (most on this site excluded) are religious and don't see themselves as equal to men. So it's not just about how men treat women but it's also about how women treat and view themselves. If a woman sees herself and shows herself as equal to a man in her abilities then she's equal in my eyes. If a woman sees herself as beneath a man then that's how I view that woman.

The question was not how women perceive themselves, but whether or not atheist men are as sexist as religious men and your attitude shows that they are. So, you only see women who see themselves as "equal" as truly being equal? If she does not see herself as equal, then you treat her as inferior.

Do you have any idea how what you wrote "sounds"?

Does this mean that all of the women who have been brainwashed into thinking that they are not equal to men deserved any low opinions/treatment that they receive? Gee, isn't that they same as saying women who are raped "ask for it"?

Here's one for ya: I see myself as superior to you. Therefore, that gives me the "right" to speak to you in a disdainful manner and treat you as if you are simply not as smart as I am.

Rise above brother, you are better than that.

@Gwendolyn2018 You're right, I'm sexist to a degree. How about you? Question is am I just as sexist as a religious man. My answer is no.

People create their own reality. If a woman creates a reality where she is inferior to a man I'm not going to argue with her. She feels and thinks that way then so be it. It's not my job to lift women up. It's a woman's job to lift herself up just like it's a man's job to lift himself up. That's certainly not the same as saying a woman asks to be raped. That's taking things too far and out of context IMO. No one deserves to be physically violated regardless of sex or anything else. Making that rape statement is ignorant.

You have the right to speak to me in any manner you feel appropriate. As do I. Freedom of speech. But your example fails to take into consideration that I don't view myself as inferior to you or anyone else for that matter. If I did think of myself as inferior then yeah I'd expect people would treat me as inferior. It's the reality I've created for myself.

I'm all for equal rights regardless of sex, age, ethnicity, etc. When it comes time to make those choices I choose equal rights. Individuals that see themselves as inferior have an issue they need to resolve within themselves. I've worked with women, I've worked for women, I'm married to a woman. I've no problem treating a woman as a equal or a superior if that is the role they occupy.

So, in essence, you just made an excuse for your objectification of, and disrespect for, women. It shouldn't matter how a woman views herself, or why. You are still responsible for your own behavior and for how you treat other human beings. What you did there has a name: it's called blame-shifting.

@JennyRad She's my equal unless she feels she's not in which case she's treated with the same respect she treats herself with. Same goes for men.

@Deb57 There's no blame shifting. There's where you are wrong. You are making it into a blame game. It's not who's to blame. It's how things are.

Inferior is bad choice of words on my part. The word I should have used is subservient. Many women view themselves this way and there's nothing I can do to change that except vote for equal rights and equal pay which I do.

For example, my wife views herself as subservient to her man. If I was to treat her as equal and expect from her what I expect from someone that truly views themselves as equal she most likely wouldn't be with me. She wants a man that is the boss so to speak. That's her feeling. I work and I provide for the family entirely by myself. I expect her to do her duties as I do mine. We both know what is expected of the other. It works.

When was that last time you heard any woman address the sexism (misandry) women routinely express? When do you imagine you will hear it? Yeah, no one should hold their breath.

@racocn8 That's right. I readily admit I harbor some sexism. I think men and women both do. But who cares, right. Bash the men. lol We are for rape, low wage for women, keeping women at home, etc. Men are pigs. Women are wonderful.

@darren316 since you speak of your thoughts and experiences, I will continue to speak of mine. You speak for yourself and you say that when a woman assumes an inferior position, you have no obligation to lift her up. That is your choice.

However, in MY experience, I have been treated as an inferior when I feel no inferiority. I am smart and I am educated and yet, I cannot count the number of times when men spoke down to me for no other reason than I am a woman.

I guess that I am just a kinder person than you are; when I meet a man or a woman who feels inferior based on their gender, I attempt to explain to them that a person is not inferior base don their gender. Having said that, though, I cannot remember a time when a man said he felt inferior because he was male and meant it. I have women who felt that they were inferior to men because of their gender, however, and showed it in various ways.

I would ask how you express your superiority to said women but this has become a circular conversation and I am smart enough to know that to continue is useless.

I will say that people who feel inferior for any reason have been taught to feel as such either by culture or upbringing. How sad that some people would accept those feelings of inferiority without a thought.

Be well.

As long as women's shortcomings are off the table, their complaints will be considered accordingly.

@darren316, @racocn8 annnd, as it usually goes, someone throws in a red herring--if you want to discuss how badly men are treated and if Xtian women are more prone to misandry than atheist women, start your own poll and forum.

@Gwendolyn2018 Grouping men into 2 categories of religious and non religious or atheist and asking the question the answer for most the women on this board is quite clear to me. Letting go of religion is no guarantee whatsoever that the man will be less misogynistic at least in the experience of the overwhelming majority of women on this board. I personally don't find that being atheist changes that for me.

@darren316 It likely wouldn't change anything for each individual. That's not the point though, because we're not looking for causative data, just correlative data. The type of thinking / upbringing that would lend itself to one who doesn't reject general teachings and themes of most religions would also tend to allow for continued belief of misogynistic ideals. This is not to say that one who was raised religious couldn't have been raised by feminists who instilled those principles in their child as well, or vice versa, but generally misogyny and religiosity are more likely to be found together than misogyny and atheism. There's plenty of research data to support this claim, personal anecdotes above notwithstanding.

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I don't have a clue.

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All I can say is that more here are sensitive to that and capable of being a caring person

bobwjr Level 10 Jan 10, 2022
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Every boy has felt completely comfortable at his sisters First Moon party.

Right?

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Atheist men are more likely to comprehend the genetic superiority of the female template driving sexual identity and reproduction.

Schrödinger's cat is more often male which explains why females rule the roost biologically.

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Since you're only asking the women, I will not opine, although that request by itself is sexist, isn't it?

But is it? Are you really claiming that it's sexist for women to ask other women about their experiences and opinions? Are you suggesting that we should not be allowed to compare notes about the various ways we are marginalized? Would you say the same thing to a person of color?

@Deb57 experiences in regards to men. If a person of color asked the question if religion made them more or less racist, yes that's a racist question. Is it racist that a bunch of white males get together to complain about how they are marginalized? Yes, it's called white pride by some, others it's blatant racism. You see this as woman pride. I see it as sexism.

@darren316 well, you're wrong. And your opinion was not sought. If you're a white cis male, then you're at to very top of the food chain of privilege. This doesn't mean a white cis man can't empathize with those who aren't as privileged, but you have demonstrated that you certainly don't possess that capacity. I'm not interested in your opinions.

@Deb57 and you're right. I'm not good at being a victim or at identifying with the victim mentality.

@darren316 yep, predictably, you're pulling out all the manipulative guns you can muster. They're still the wrong guns, though, child. You're still making this all about yourself. I think we all have a pretty clear picture as to your character by now.

@Deb57 yes it is, no I'm not, you can do whatever you want but since we are in a forum that is full of all sexes, I suggest you open a room only for atheist women were you can rant and rave all you want about whatever it is you want to discuss and or bash, finally, as a person of color myself, what does color have to do in the post? I don't get the deflection.

@Mofo1953 I directed my question to women, because it was their perspective I wanted. How dare you tell me I should need to hide behind a private "room" so that I don't annoy or upset men. How fucking dare you! Do you say that to breastfeeding women? Do you realize how horribly sexist you're being just to make the suggestion. Male privilege and white privilege have a whole lot in common and are the source of a myriad of "isms." Ask any woman of color.

@Deb57 learn how to read woman. People here get points for opening rooms, did i say hide anywhere? It was a suggestion so that your sexist post gets more responses by going to a target audience. Suggestions can be taken or dropped, so spare me your indignation. And I still don't get your dumb comparison of your original poll with racism and color. It is dumb and females or males can be dumb, so consider that a nonsexist assessment of your intelect and lack of reading comprehension.

@Mofo1953 it's clear that you don't "get it," and it's clear that you're blaming me for the fact that you don't get it. You literally told me to "get a room" rather than upset men by asking women for their input. Stop backpedaling now that you have been called out.

@Deb57 you have some serious comprehension issues, i.e. you quote "get a room" knowing well that's a lie, what I said is "open a room" and later clarified that members here get extra points for opening rooms, check it out. So now you're dismissed, I prefer not to talk to people with under par comprehension levels, which in your case is also affected by severe daddy issues that make you feel attacked by anyone with a penis. Get some help, most replies to your post, even by women, reveal your sickening bias. Really, get some help. But of course you won't listen to reason because you choose to have deaf ears to simple suggestions that are given with the hope that your self described miserable life gets some meaning.

@Mofo1953 from the beginning you have attacked me for asking a question that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You have attacked my ability to read and write. You have told me I deserve to be ostracized for making this poll. You have insisted that my reading comprehension, which is above average, is defective. And now you're accusing me of mental illness and a "sickening bias." You really have issues with this topic, don't you? I'm guessing you're pretty damned insecure. You are behaving as though my existence, and the fact that I have a voice, is somehow negatively affecting the functioning of your genitalia. Your fragility is not my problem. Let it go.

@Deb57 wow, you telling me to let it go, psychotic projection, after I told you that I would not engage with you anymore. And you say you have above average reading comprehension, amazing. Ok, I repeat once again, you have serious issues, daddy issues, psychotic issues, reading comprehension issues. Get help. Heed the advice of all those responding to your sexist post. Bye now, I will not respond to anymore of your diatribes.

@Mofo1953 ... and yet you continue to engage. You know absolutely nothing about me and yet you continue to fling poo. Taking into consideration the tinge of panic detectable in your vibe as you keep attacking, I don't think anything could have validated my position any better that your demonstrable freak-out in this thread. I suppose I should thank you for that.

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The question is stupid and frankly only posted as a way for women to complain about men IMO. Sexism runs much much deeper than religious beliefs and everyone knows that and accepts it as fact. Get over it and move on with your life.

This question was posed in the feminist tradition of women coming together to share their collective experience. Such experience does not include you although some would have been interested in your opinion if it had been offered civilly as is required on this website. Instead, your comments served to reinforce our views of the prevalence of sexism on this website which is unfortunate because this question generated many helpful comments.

Please remember that other peoples' opinions are just as valid as yours and in instances like this, moreso.

@LovinLarge It's not about feminism. It's about bashing men, period. As I said everyone knows atheism has NOTHING whatsoever to do with feminism. Two totally separate things. To equate the two is nothing more than complaining and trying to start an argument for which it succeeded.

@darren316 sometimes a comment comes along so blatantly toxic that it defies all ambiguity. In that light, thanks for clarifying your stance.

@Deb57 Sorry I was not more helpful to you in identifying and fixing your issues with men. I'd suggest you find a feminist site if you wish to have your collective feminism conversation. This is agnostic.com if you haven't noticed. Gee, even a feminist group would suit you for your man bashing. But it was decided that general & hellos was the place for this question/post. If you prefer not to have toxic replies that defy all ambiguity then I suggest you find a place not full of toxic men.

@darren316 aaaand there's another very predictable response. Good job!

@Deb57 you elicited it. Perhaps a question you might want to ask is why. Is it that I'm so sexist? Wouldn't be that you have any sexism in you, would it? Obviously by your own words you've had many bad experiences with men but I'm sure men are 100% at fault in 100% of those interactions. Has got NOTHING to do with you whatsoever. Like I said, men are pigs, women are wonderful.

@darren316 the coup de grace of the sexist man when feminism is discussed: they say, "It's just a man bashing party." And you CHOSE to participate on this discussion--you had the option to not comment at all, but you felt the need to defend your manhood from the mean and nasty women.

In the future, take your small egocentric ego and just walk away.

@Deb57 exceedingly predictable! It is sad and pathetic but I have seen such answer so often, I know it is to be expected.

@Gwendolyn2018 you're neither mean nor nasty and it's not nice to make shit up I didn't say. Try sticking to the topic and not engage in personal attacks. It only serves to make you look bad. It does nothing to me.

@darren316 The initial question was never directed at you and was never about you, and yet you identified enough to get really defensive really quickly. You made this about you. Why is that?

No.

@Deb57 about me? How do you come to that conclusion? The post obviously isn't about me. The question is about men directed at women. Strange how feminism is about female's view of men. I thought feminism was about women, not about how men are viewed by women.

If a man was to ask the same question but about women how would feminist feel about that? Would it be viewed as sexist? How do men feel about women that are no longer religious? Do men find these women to be more of less sexist? Sounds pretty sexist, doesn't it?

@darren316 @Deb57 @Gwendolyn2018 Darren, I can see you are blind to it, but you are very sexist, or at least the way you expressed your views in this set of comments. If this reflects the real you, you should consider some serious soul searching in regard to your beliefs. No matter how you try to twist and turn it, your set of comments and the view they represent is very sexist. Oh, and I am a straight male who is telling you this.

@creative51 I've admitted to be sexist if you've read all my replies. As for being "very" sexist that's a matter of opinion. I'm interested in hearing from feminist if they are sexist. Apparently not. Women are simply victims of sexism and show no outward signs of it themselves. My point is this post/question is in itself sexist.

@darren316 While all people can be sexist at one time or another, typically sexism implies that one party has at least some implied power over the other. Given the strong paternalistic nature of most cultures in the world, being sexist is the default behavior of most males (unless they take that extra step to by pass that behavior). While women under the right circumstances could also be sexist, it happens rarely, as women in most cultures are not in any position of power to act sexist.

@creative51 And American culture? Yes, in American culture many women are in a position of power to act sexist and many most certainly do. My argument is the original post is an example of just that. Sexism in the US is not a one way street as it is in other cultures.

@darren316 At this point, we have to agree to disagree. I fail to see where a lot of women are in positions of power. Yes, some are. Yes, their numbers are increasing, as well they should be. But overall, they are not in positions of power. Perhaps at some point in the future this might be a real topic of discussion, but not at this point in time in the US.

@creative51 Does the original poster of this message not have the same power within this forum? Do the women in this forum not have the same power as men? Lets look at this specific example of this original post/question which is what I'm referring to. Still no one has been able to give a good argument as to how this post is not sexist. It's implied it's not sexist because a woman wrote it. All I'm hearing is that I'm very sexist. So yes, I'll agree to disagree. The only one sexist here is me. Apparently I hold power over women in this forum. News to me.

@darren316 this is what you wrote, "Gee, even a feminist group would suit you for your man bashing." And, "It's not about feminism. It's about bashing men, period." You changed the direction of the thread away from issues of feminism to criticizing women and accusing them of being sexist. If you want to complain about sexist women, create your own forum.

This is the same type of thing that SOME men do when women discuss domestic abuse that they have suffered. These men change the course of the discussion to women who abuse men. Yes, men are abused; I know men who were physically abused. However, that was not the topic of the said forum(s). Also, if the men had not been hostile, it would have been a different matter.

And as you keep making the same points, I have nothing left to say to you.

@Gwendolyn2018 I think I'll take your advice and create a group for straight white men where we can talk about how we are marginalized and talk about how religion effects colored folks view of our white male privilege but ask that anyone non white male not get involved in the conversation. Better yet I'll not even create a group for it but just ask the question to all white males and dismiss the opinions of non white males who obviously would be upset by the post. That's not racist and this original post isn't sexist either. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Talk about women being marginalized in an open forum or talk about white males being marginalized in an open forum. Same thing but one is racist and the other isn't sexist.

@darren316 and I will not join your group. Easy fix, eh? And this is it--however, feel free to have the last word because I know you want it.

@darren316 I would love for you to create that group. Having all the toxic men out themselves would be quite convenient for the rest of us.

@Deb57 Hmmmm...create a group called "toxic men". Not a bad idea but by whose definition of "toxic men" do we go by? The feminist definition? What is that definition? I'm not a feminist so I don't know exactly what feminist view as a "toxic man". Perhaps you could explain it. What is a toxic man exactly besides using me as your example?

I went to search the Internet for "what is the feminist defintion of toxic man" and I found a page full of links about toxic feminism. Nothing about toxic men. I can't find it. Please assist.

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