I said "if people want something..." Are you implying that you want murder?

@Fanburger You're comparing prostitution to murder? I may be able to see your point if the person agreed to be murdered.

That's true to a point and trust me I get you know this, but there are limits to that philosophy. An example would be underage prostitution. My primary concern is that we legalize prostitution and the criminals who profited from adult prostitution will turn to sex trafficking children.

@Fanburger Legalized murder? Reminds me of the movie, The Purge.

@Fanburger extrapolation is not actual thought!

@Fanburger Exactly, and in that situation she would be vulnerable to be exploited in many settings, even simple labor situations or in relationships with members of her family and other adults in her social life. She would not be a consenting adult in any of those situations. So, your answer seems to give strength to the idea that exchange of sex for anything of value would be perfectly ok if the consenting question is cleared or resolved.

@Fanburger are any poor people consenting to becoming garbage collectors or coal miners?

@Fanburger are any poor people consenting to becoming garbage collectors or coal miners?

Yes, you are correct , sex always involves some cost . Serial murders , often choose prostitutes as victims , because they're people unlikely to be missed . Male serial murders outnumber female serial murders 6:1 . I have yet to hear of any man , who was raped by a woman , who got him pregnant . While men are congradulated for getting lucky , young women are still shamed for it . And yet , if a woman refuses to have sex with a man , he immediately labels her as being a slut , then broadcasts it to their social pool . If a woman is drugged and raped , and she reports it , in this country , they take her to a hospital for a rape kit , which is again invasive , embarrising , and more often than not immediately shelved . In some foreign countries , a woman who was raped , is sentenced to death by stoning , for having sex outside of marriage . If she survives a rape , and becomes pregnant , she then has to make some serious choices . 1. Will she abort the fetus (costly . guilt , shame) . 2. Will she have the child and put it up for adoption ( frequent doctor appointments , medications , morning sickness , time off from work , time off work for the delivery period , recovery period , possible loss of job altogether , deciding whether to give up a child for adoption or to keep the child . Cost of orphanages or foster care until (if) child is adopted . IF she decides to keep the child , then clothing , furniture , medical care , child care when she returns to work (2015 census reports it now costs over $250,000 to raise a child ) . So yes , you are correct . Sex does indeed cost money . More often than not , it costs a woman , many times more than the tiny amount a man invests in it .

Are any poor people consenting to becoming garbage collectors or coal miners?

@PontifexMarximus or go into the military or into gangs and all those other things people go for desperation?

UH, just so you know, they were talking about their music.

"The lyrical meaning behind "Give It Away" is centered on the philosophy of selflessness and altruistic behavior. . . .When Kiedis was looking through her closet he came across a jacket he liked, and commented to Hagen that it was "really cool".[9] Upon expressing this, Hagen immediately told him to keep it. Her reasoning behind this selflessness was due to an attempt to constantly make her life more enjoyable, and explained to Kiedis that "if you have a closet full of clothes and you try to keep them all, your life will get very small. But if you have a full closet and someone sees something they like, if you give it to them, the world is a better place."[9]

The act was something that affected Kiedis significantly because he had never before experienced such an enlightening ideology on life. Growing up in Los Angeles, he had always thought differently from Hagen. Instead of giving material possessions away and being free thinking, the vocalist believed one must take what one wants, as no one else will provide.[9] Instead, he now adopted Hagen's philosophy: "It was such an epiphany that someone would want to give me her favorite thing. That stuck with me forever. Every time I'd be thinking 'I have to keep,' I'd remember 'No, you gotta give away instead.' When I started going regularly to [drug and alcohol] meetings, one of the principles I had learned was that the way to maintain your own sobriety is to give it to another suffering alcoholic. Every time you empty your vessel of that energy, fresh new energy comes flooding in."

The Band was talking about sharing their music, much to the record companies dismay

Listen to it again and think music instead of sex and you will see it all fits, its a double metaphor

@Davesnothere. Thanks Dave.... there went my joke...lol. BTW... I didn't know that.

@BucketlistBob I like you, Dave, you're weird but in a good way.

@Knd502 most double metaphors have an element of humor to them

@Knd502 because it sounded like he missed it and only got one side and I am fond of that poet

That's another point I haven't considered. Child sex trafficking. I've been alive for 50 years, and things still shock me to my core and that one is at the top of my list. If my brain were wired to lust after kids and I couldn't control that impulse, I would blow my brains out.

@paul1967 Me, too. Because I actually believe that there are people with various unspeakable desires, and I feel very sorry for them. But there are just lines. And I would do the same thing, kill myself, if I had one of those kinds of urges. I think. Of course I wouldn't know unless I was there. But I believe a lot of people probably do. Also, it pisses me off, but if somebody does have those urges and tries to get help, they are criminalized immediately. Well, my entire knowledge base of it is Law & Order SVU, but from what I understand, that show is, at last on forming awareness of the big issues, pretty true to reality.

This is a valid point. The only thing I would contest is that the focus would be more narrow supposing that we still had the same population in vice squads. The population of pedophiles must be significantly smaller than that of non-pedophiles.

@Jenmcjen I don't know either, but if that's true, that's a travesty of justice. I've been to therapy enough times in my life to know that my therapist isn't allowed to report anything I say to them unless I tell him/her my intent to commit an illegal act and even that is a grey area.

@Gwendolyn2018 They are but would the loss of adult prostitution push them to increase the number of child sex workers. I was thinking about this question after @Jenmcjen brought this issue to light for me and I think that as long as the demand doesn't increase which it shouldn't the supply wouldn't grow. However, I'm no expert on this topic so I have no idea other than just what is logically true.

I think you're both right, but poverty is built into the system. I can't imagine a capitalistic society where poverty is a thing of the past. The system requires a large service class willing to flip the hamburgers, pick the cotton fields, clean the house and wash the dishes. Maybe, I'm wrong, but this has always been my belief/conspiracy theory as to why our education system is such a joke.

You have a point I hadn't considered. I don't know the answer to that, but my instinct says it might lessen it because the government regulates it and they get taxed like everyone else, but I could be wrong too. Anyways, good point, I'll need more time to consider it.

I think it would affect trafficing by cutting off the supply. If men (or women) were able to go to a place and do this legaly then there would be less of a market for sex trafficing. Also women who are assulted or abused by a client during the corse of things would be able to go to the athorities. As of now they can't do much about it because they would be admitting to a crime themselves.

Legalization would permit law enforcement to concentrate on trafficking rather than harassment of women working to make a living. Trafficking won't stop, but it can be better policed.

@paul1967 there is an interesting documentary on Netflix called Tricked (2013) that discusses the connection between prostitution and human trafficking. I'm not suggesting it's the end all on the topic but it brings a few views to light worth considering.

[m.imdb.com]

@MarlaPaine I will check it out. Thank you

I was thinking them when i said legalize

I get the hint of satire, and irony yet you're both forgetting another factor. Cost.

If you think that the majority of these "incels" have high paying careers apart from their self destructive lifestyles, whether chosen or inflicted due to mental health issues, can afford a brothel then it's sadly not in the realm of reality.

Not to forget that most of these incels are the most common "slut shamers" out there, so legal prostitutes would be seen to them as 'unworthy' and a waste of money.

While it may not cure these whiny, hot air bags, of their apparent, media hyped desire, to seek out our blood. It'd be a damn fun time for those that seek out sex for the pleasure of sex. I vote legalize.

@DavidAckerman Actually I was half joking with that. I think there would be some effect on incel culture--but some mutated form would likely remain. Like, they would make it about "girlfriendy-stuff" like affection, appreciation, love, dating, emotional support, etc. The same "Wah, girls aren't giving me" but only not about sex anymore.

@BeardedWonder You are obvs more studied up on this than I. Sounds totally legit.

@stinkeye_a
Oh stop it you, I'll blush. I wouldn't say studied, I'm an armchair psychologist at best; I just try to look at the larger picture.

I swear this isn't me trying to be insensitive or rude I'm just confused are you a sex therapist or an escort? I know you said you're a nurse but I got a little confused towards the end.

@paul1967 @Sunshinegardener is a retired nurse. She never said she was a therapist. She explained why she enjoys doing what she does and what she likes about it, and that she likes the money. You swear it is not you trying to be insensitive or rude, but I would suggest you to try some other way because you came across as insensitive and rude.

Rape, as opposed to statutory rape, is most often not an act of sex. It is an act of dominance and power where sex is the weapon or means of showing dominance or power.

@Rob1948 Not all sexual crime is about power some rape is about a testosterone-fueled kid wanting to get laid. Another subset could be those people who are too shy and awkward to find a girlfriend. I do agree that the vast majority of sex crimes are as you described but my point is not all are, other sexual reasons are behind rape.

@paul1967 I did not address sex crimes other than rape and I excluded statutory rape... which would cover your example of a testosterone-fueled kid, in many incidences. Nor did I say rape is never a sexual act...

@Rob1948 I agree you didn't and the only reason I brought those topics to the table was because I felt @emmagoldman had those types of rapes in mind. I meant no disrespect towards you. What you said was absolutely valid.

I agree, however, whether it's legal or not, it's happening.

@paul1967 That is true, but legalizing it is not a solution.

@Davesnothere Is the better solution to keep it illegal allowing criminals to profit, diseases to be spread, and having drugs pushed on the women to maintain control over them until we can find a better solution? I'm not trying to be snarky, and maybe you're correct, but it just seems obvious to me that regulation by the government appears to be a better option since no better solution has been offered up over the last two thousand years. plus years

@paul1967 Except that legalization in Europe did not stop any of that, it just drove it underground. Sex slavery is still rampant.

I do not think the solution is in law, nor do I think it is attanable anymore than utopia or an end to war.
I think the only real solution is for humans to elevate their own sense of worth, to value other humans as much as themselves universally.

I am not holding my breath on that.

@Fanburger if these deviants had a safe outlet, they might find their preferences less compelling....

@Fanburger oh no, I did Not , I simply meant thatvforbidden fruit is always more attractive.

Here's the podcast with Jan Mackell Collins who studied prostitution in the 19th Century American West and it's affects on society therein. Really interesting stuff and rather (to me) ironic.

[player.fm]

@Gnarloc That was incredibly informative. I had absolutely no idea, but that makes perfect sense. It wasn't in any of my grade school history books, and if it had, I probably would have gotten a better grade. Thank you for sharing that with me.

@LetzGetReal A good research question would be the presence of disease in brothels through the ages (including convents, as there is some evidence the church used them as a sort of brothel). I say this because some of the diseases that you and I know of, and now associate with STDs, were not known, or as prevalent, back in the day... or at least some of the reading I have done suggests that being 'loose' wasn't as much of an issue, back when.

I became an adult in the '80s and fully realize that I dodged the HIV bullet... but, how prevalent was it really at the time? Ie: I had several partners and wasn't very 'safe' but didn't get sick...so, how prevalent were STDs, and specifically HIV, back then?

Again: Good research question!

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the distinction between decriminalizing and legalize. You're the third person to say that, and I'm sure there is a distinction, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

@paul1967 To me, the distinction between legalize and decriminalize is the regulation aspect. Legalize marijuana? How tightly regulated is the production and distribution? Decriminalize it? "well, but it's still not 'decriminalized'- Moral legal people just Wouldn't, would they? So, why regulate? Regulations, (and legalization) happens when abuses happen.

@paul1967 Look up the Legal Definition of Business Transaction. I'm sure the term Mutual Agreement would make the case. Then call your local Congressional Representative who thinks he can get it any time he wants and not have to pay for it.

Very well put. I also wonder what is the difference between “prostituing” and wanting a diamond ring, a big house, an SUV, yoga clases, clothes, food, traveling and who knows what else, to be your exclusive woman in bed.

@Rodatheist What about love?

@Emmagoldman What about love? One can love without sex and there is plenty of pleasure without love. The two don't have to be connected.

Even in Australia prostitution is legal, though regulated under state law.

@LetzGetReal We are the prudes of the world (except for the Middle East). And we owe it all to...religion!!

I agree, and my girl Rosie Palm would give me hell for paying for it anyways. Too much info... yeah it was, but that's just because I don't have a working embarrassment filter.

@paul1967 There is nothing wrong with self-love. Sure it maybe a mental image, but we all make love to our selves, right? I have been told by other guys they don't do that sort of thing, and I say bull$h!t on that.

@countrylife LMFAO If they don't then shame on them.

Do you think if it this question were put on a national ballot it would pass? Most people here are progressive or liberal and therefore more inclined to say legalize it, but my guess is moderate voters, and even some conservative people would see the logic in legalizing it.

@paul1967 I don’t think it would pass. This country is way too christian. Logic only matters to a logical mind.

@ArdentAtheist LMAO. It's funny because it's true and it's sad for the same reason.

That is a little naive - isn't it?

@DerekD No. Just like drugs. Keeping them illegal means that nobody will do drugs.

@indirect76 ??? exactly

All good points

In any form?

So keep it illegal, because it makes you uncomfortable? Something about prostitution seems wrong because it is wrong, but keeping it illegal doesn't mean it is not happening it means criminals get to profit from it. The spread of disease, sex slavery, and lives in ruin are only a handful of the net result keeping it illegal. I don't mind you voting against it, but I would think that you might want to consider some of the benefits of having it regulated by the government as opposed to regulated by the pimps and sex traffickers.

You're spot on as usual.

@paul1967 thanks & blush

Very well stated, and I agree.

@SpikeTalon

Thank you.

Of course, then you have to start insuring things and thus you bring in the insurance industry to make things more expensive than ever.

LMAO Man do I miss him. He didn't have, common sense he had exceptional sense.