Agnostic.com

14 10

LINK Weighing up the evidence for the Historical Jesus - The University of Sydney

This is truly damning.

Weighing up the evidence for the Historical Jesus

10 December 2016

Did a man called Jesus of Nazareth walk the earth? Discussions over whether the figure known as the “Historical Jesus” actually existed primarily reflect disagreements among atheists, writes Raphael Lataster.

Believers, who uphold the implausible and more easily-dismissed “Christ of Faith” (the divine Jesus who walked on water), ought not to get involved.

Numerous secular scholars have presented their own versions of the so-called “Historical Jesus” – and most of them are, as biblical scholar J.D. Crossan puts it, “an academic embarrassment”.

From Crossan’s view of Jesus as the wise sage, to Robert Eisenman’s Jesus the revolutionary, and Bart Ehrman’s apocalyptic prophet, about the only thing New Testament scholars seem to agree on is Jesus’ historical existence. But can even that be questioned?

What resources about Jesus still exist?
The first problem we encounter when trying to discover more about the Historical Jesus is the lack of early sources. The earliest sources only reference the clearly fictional Christ of Faith.

These early sources, compiled decades after the alleged events, all stem from Christian authors eager to promote Christianity – which gives us reason to question them. The authors of the Gospels fail to name themselves, describe their qualifications, or show any criticism with their foundational sources – which they also fail to identify.

Filled with mythical and non-historical information, and heavily edited over time, the Gospels certainly should not convince critics to trust even the more mundane claims made therein.

The methods traditionally used to tease out rare nuggets of truth from the Gospels are dubious.

The criterion of embarrassment says that if a section would be embarrassing for the author, it is more likely authentic. Unfortunately, given the diverse nature of Christianity and Judaism back then (things have not changed all that much), and the anonymity of the authors, it is impossible to determine what truly would be embarrassing or counter-intuitive, let alone if that might not serve some evangelistic purpose.

Even those sparse accounts [from non-Biblical sources] are shrouded in controversy.
Raphael Lataster, University of Sydney
The criterion of Aramaic context is similarly unhelpful. Jesus and his closest followers were surely not the only Aramaic-speakers in first-century Judea.

The criterion of multiple independent attestation can also hardly be used properly here, given that the sources clearly are not independent.

Paul’s Epistles, written earlier than the Gospels, give us no reason to dogmatically declare Jesus must have existed. Avoiding Jesus’ earthly events and teachings, even when the latter could have bolstered his own claims, Paul only describes his “Heavenly Jesus”.

Even when discussing what appear to be the resurrection and the last supper, his only stated sources are his direct revelations from the Lord, and his indirect revelations from the Old Testament. In fact, Paul actually rules out human sources (see Galatians 1:11-12).

What resources about Historical Jesus don't exist?
Also important are the sources we don’t have. There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. All we have are later descriptions of Jesus’ life events by non-eyewitnesses, most of whom are obviously biased.

Little can be gleaned from the few non-Biblical and non-Christian sources, with only Roman scholar Josephus and historian Tacitus having any reasonable claim to be writing about Jesus within 100 years of his life.

And even those sparse accounts are shrouded in controversy, with disagreements over what parts have obviously been changed by Christian scribes (the manuscripts were preserved by Christians), the fact that both these authors were born after Jesus died (they would thus have probably received this information from Christians), and the oddity that centuries go by before Christian apologists start referencing them.

Agnosticism over the matter is already seemingly appropriate, and support for this position comes from independent historian Richard Carrier’s recent defence of another theory. Namely, that the belief in Jesus started as the belief in a purely celestial being (who was killed by demons in an upper realm), who became historicised over time.

To summarise Carrier’s 800-page tome, this theory and the traditional theory – that Jesus was a historical figure who became mythicised over time – both align well with the Gospels, which are later mixtures of obvious myth and what at least “sounds” historical.

The Pauline Epistles, however, overwhelmingly support the “celestial Jesus” theory, particularly with the passage indicating that demons killed Jesus, and would not have done so if they knew who he was (see: 1 Corinthians 2:6-10).

Humans – the murderers according to the Gospels – of course would still have killed Jesus, knowing full well that his death results in their salvation, and the defeat of the evil spirits.

So what do the mainstream (and non-Christian) scholars say?
Surprisingly very little; of substance anyway. Only Bart Ehrman and Maurice Casey have thoroughly attempted to prove Jesus’ historical existence in recent times.

Their most decisive point? The Gospels can generally be trusted – after we ignore the many, many bits that are untrustworthy – because of the hypothetical (i.e. non-existent) sources behind them.

Who produced these hypothetical sources? When? What did they say? Were they reliable? Were they intended to be accurate historical portrayals, enlightening allegories, or entertaining fictions?

Ehrman and Casey can’t tell you – and neither can any New Testament scholar.

Given the poor state of the existing sources, and the atrocious methods used by mainstream Biblical historians, the matter will likely never be resolved. In sum, there are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence – if not to think it outright improbable.

This article was originally published on The Conversation, 15 December 2014. Raphael Lataster is a tutor in the Department of Studies in Religion at the University of Sydney.

HippieChick58 9 Feb 4
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

14 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

Over a 400 year period there were 26 so-called "prophets" claiming to be "the Christ" all of whom were heavily documented by both Greek and Roman authorities. None of them match the so called Jesus of the bible nor did they live in the approximate period the church claims. The bible itself proves that Jesus was simply a story made up by the Eastern Greco/Romans during the Jewish wars. Nazareth itself did not exist until much later as an attempt to provide "evidence" of the biblical accounts of the early life of Jesus and disproves them because incidents described in the bible could not have happened due to the lack of the type of terrain described. Also this so-called town was actually a cemetery and as a result it would have been forbidden by the religion of the time to live on top of the dead. This is just one example that disproves the bible as a credible source and if you do have a copy of the bible with pilgrimage maps inside you might be interested to know that Nazareth is not on them and neither are other important landmarks...
Even the concept of people being gathered to be taxed was ludicrous as the Byzantines used a system of "tax farming where a region was put up for bid and the person willing to pay the Emperor the highest price would have the right to squeeze as much as possible from the people of that region. This would result in an armed force traveling from estate to estate and town to town "assessing" the value of what people owned and demanding the taxes they wanted and if someone couldn't pay not only was their property confiscated they were often sold into slavery. Many members of the Senate were created this way as it was extremely expensive to buy a seat...

1

There are parts of the Jesus story may be thought of as original and good
but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good.

Anonymous quote

0

You don't even know what Christ is. This is fucking hilarious!

Sooooo, are you going to enlighten us or keep it to yourself?

@HippieChick58 there's nothing I keep to myself. I'm not an enlightener, I'm an awakener. Seek and you shall find.

1

I have several of John Dominic Crossan's books. He was a Catholic priest who became an authority on history especially during the time of the, so-called, Jesus. One critical element he followed was that all statements of that period had to be backed up by at least three proofs. Apparently, he has had enough of the Catholic BS and has left the church. In his books he did post numerous Roman drawings and sculptures showing a person surrounded by 12 other's so there was some reference to someone being seen as a leader during those times.

In Crossan's book "The Essential Jesus" there are many shots of engravings and even some Roman paintings of typical scenes from Biblical times. I love items like this as I also learn things. Diogenes of Sinop (I was stationed in that city while in the military and learned a lot about this figure. In fact the base was known as TUSLOG - meaning Turkish-US logistics Detachment 4 Diogenese station). He is considered the father of Cynic Philosophy which many figures (including mythical ones) as Jesus, John the Baptist and Francis of Assisi embraced.

For the base here''s a link. [armysecurityagencyveterans.net] Scroll down to the picture my 'office' was the white baloon building in the center.

True historians of the day have abandoned the terms Ad and BC. They now use the terms BCE (before the common era) and ACE (after the Common Era).

There has been some speculation that a minor figure became the basis for today's Jesus but this figure was said to be born a Jew and remain so throughout his life. It is (or should be) common knowledge that people question the dogmas of their religious beliefs. We see that in the figure of Luther and his rift in the Catholic Church. That rift went on and on so that now we have 100+ sects within the Protestant movement.

People should also be aware there were no schools or teachers for the common folk. Only a tiny fraction of the public could read or write and all history was passed around orally. Even Crossan mentioned how the bible has been translated with words that implied reading (visual) instead of orally (hearing).

In some a figure that supposedly represents a Jesus type philosopher is seen clothed in the style of a Cynic Philosopher. That philosophy did have a well documented figure behind it, Diogenese of Sinop.

Scene #1 This proto-Christian sarcophagus, dated between 250 abd 275,, could be read as either Pagan or Christian
Scene # 2 A typical eating scene. A Jesus is found standing at far right holding a scroll and clothed like a cynic philosopher.
#3 A typical teaching scene. To left: The raising of Lazarus

4

I have concluded that the bible is mostly just a bunch of mostly recycled myths from earlier religions and cultures...

0

non believers sure do spend a lot of time on belief. Isn't that odd?

@floWteiuQ not everything is true nor false. So long as you exist in duality you will never know truth.

@floWteiuQ "someone existed as human" As opposed to existing as an insect?

Bottom line is you don't care yet you do which I find absolutely hilarious.

@floWteiuQ unconscious minds need love too. Remember you are loved.

Some of us non-believers were one time believers. Nothing odd about it.

1

One of my favourite writers/speakers on the subject is Prof. Richard Carrier. He reckons that there is a 50% chance that the Jesus of the bible was based on a real person. Although as mentioned above the town of Nazareth did not exist at the supposed time of his birth why go to the trouble of inventing the census story to have him born in Bethlehem. The Jews were desperate for a leader/messiah to lead then to former glories and it was prophesised that he would be born in Bethlehem.
So why not just have him born in Bethlehem without the Nazareth connection ?
This would point to the fact that a preacher/holy man of some note did come from there. .

4

So long ago I read of a scholar who said that Jesus was a common name in Palestine- and one such Jewish Jesus revolted because the Romans had taken over the temple. I believe he was executed. This had nothing to do with coming back from the dead or any of the other foolish nonsense. Apparently the historic Herod was an ultra evil man, killing members of his own family-but he was not known for having a campaign of killing babies. Like all cults, the Jewish cult of Christianity, took a man who was known to be evil and then invented a story.

And some of the most obvious basics: why, when this god-being, who created every thing, including physics, have to resort to some two-bit carny trick, like "walking on water". Did Newton have it all wrong?

2

The evidence for the existence of Jesus is either dubious or lacking. What is much more important is that Christian dogma requires a literal Adam and Eve to have committed the Original Sin, said Sin being atoned for by Jesus's death. As Adam and Even never existed, the PURPOSE of Jesus's existence also gets rendered as absurd.

Seriously, the whole thing is asinine on its face: contrived, childish in conception, and mostly plagiarized from pre-existing demi-gods. Plus, the moral content completely sucks being primitive, misogynistic, promoting hatred, and anything but moral. One can ONLY believe it if they are nihilistic narcissists indifferent to self-delusion.

8

Ohferpetesake, the Romans were known for Obsessive record-keeping.
Think there were lists of the many crucified in any area they occupied?
You betcha, and not one Jesus at the times suggested...quelle surprise!

6

There is no historical evidence for the biblical Jesus outside of the bible and the apocryphal gospels.
Chrisitian claim this is not surprising.
Until you point out there is historical evidence for John the Baptist and his sect of followers called Christians or anointed ones, Simon Magus, Simon Zealotes, the whole clan of the Isicari whose members were called Iscariots, All of the Herods, Pontius Pilate, his wife and his mother, Jesus Barabbas, and about eight other prophets called Jesus existing between 4 BCE and 60 CE, some of whom share various traits with Jesus of Nazareth, which is highly unsurprising because it is a matter of historical fact that Nazareth did not start to be built until 35 CE

Biblical Jesus is a myth comprised of many characters from more or less contemporary times, used as a basis to make money and power bases, by Saul of Tarsus and his opportunist cronies.

I AM NOT AT ANY TIME saying there was a Jesus-dude that came back from the dead, or 'waved his magic wand' (or whatever he used) and fed the multitude, the 5 thousand, or curred the blind and sick. That is complete BS. There is continuing controversity over the Testimonium Flavianum , by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, over whether it was a later insurtion, by the Christians, about the existence of Jesus.

I don't know, and I don't care---- I wasn't there 'that day'!

And later Josephus served the Romans.

@Diogenes
Fair enough but the Testimonium Flavianum has been thoroughly debunked, only increasingly desperate Christians continue to defend it, and why would Flavius Josephus give only one short passage to any Jesus, but give over an entire chapter to John the Baptist with no mention of Jesus, if this Jesus was supposed to be as important as the forger claims?

@LenHazell53 Agreed!

1

By this "logic" Hannibal didn't exist. it's basically embarrassing atheists get so worked up over this.

Jesus Existed; Stop Saying He Didn't
You're making atheists and agnostics look ignorant:

[jamesfell.substack.com]

Ha, ha; I asume that you are trying to be funny, or are as stupid as somebody's toilet plunger. Why are you mixing history, which can ALSO be twisted to the writer's fantacies, to absolute tales of nonsense. Yep, an' your Jesus-dude can walk on water- so we agnostics should stop "showing our ignorance".

How do you work that out?
There is masses of evidence for Hannibal, the entire histories of the first and second Punic wars for a start, the is outside of scripture NO evidence for the carpenter of Nazareth, or his mission, or his death, or his resurrection, or his assentation.
The "historical" figure Jesus has most in common with in this respect is "Robin Hood" they both have one written account from the contemporary time (with in one hundred years either way of the setting) They both bare a name that is steeped in prophetic tradition, they both claim near impossible miraculous deeds for the hero of the story, and both have tragic deaths caused by the betrayal of a loved one, a secret burial place and rumours of their returning from the dead at times of need.

3

Just as it is impossible to prove Jesus existed, so it is impossible to prove that he did not. (Notice how similar this is to the question of God's existence, which likewise can neither be proven nor disproven.) Happily, we free thinkers are not obligated to plant a flag on either hill. Anyone who does just falls into a trap. But there is an attractive solution: simply consider the problem in terms of probabilities. What is the likelihood that Jesus actually existed? Tot up the evidence, and put a percentage number on it. Let that number be greater than 0% and less than 100%. Studiously avoid the numbers 0% and 100%. If you do this, you can't go wrong. 🙂

Example:
I rate the probability that an Aramaic-speaking carpenter from Nazareth who preached love and forgiveness and was named Jesus at about 75%. None of the stuff I mentioned above stretches the imagination. It's all plausible.

If you insist that I must include all the supernatural malarky associated with the Jesus legend, i.e. miracles, resurrection, etc., then I put the probability equal to that of God's existence, i.e. much closer to zero. Say, 0.000000001%. 😂

...and the probability that a Hispanic immigrant named Jesus lived in California and picked fruit is more than 75% likely - but he most likely did not walk on water?

7

In my opinion there is no reliable evidence for a historical Jesus. As said above, those who claim otherwise have no real proof. Once ideas of Christianity started appearing many produced what they said was evidence but they had northing to show. When Paul said that over 500 people saw Jesus after the resurrection this would not prove anything when many had no last name, then also have no historical record themselves. I see no way that this can ever be resolved in modern times. Some of this is because it was never resolved 2000 years ago. Looks to be too late now.

I think this minor Jewish cult ,Christianity, would have withered away, and been a forgotten page in history if it wasn't for the efforts of Constantine 1700 years ago.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:745560
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.