I would like to see more secular humanist places where people in need can go when they assistance: food, clothing, shelter etc. One reason the fundamentalists don't like the government helping people is because they want people to turn to their god (via their church, of course) for help so they can say "we love you" and "see what god has done for you."

They think the same thing... thus, trolls.

It’s kind of like telling a Republican Obama was a great President or an NRA member that gun control is not confiscation of their precious guns. Their ears close up immediately.

Couldn’t have said it any better

I believe organised worship was incredibly important in our societal evolution. It was one of the major reasons we evolved the ability to cooperate beyond the scale of communities and tribes. It allowed disparate peoples and cultures to mesh together into the first cities and kingdoms. Yet, in our modern world, I define it as a social appendix. It was useful once, but is archaic now. The only solution to this, is knowledge. We exist in a point where nearly all observable experiences can be defined and labeled from the macro to the micro. Philosophy covers the rest. We need to continue to enlighten those who can be, and hope that those who cant, won't inculculate superstition on the next generation.

An interesting post but it leaves me wondering who is the "average person, " the proverbial John or Jane Doe? Perhaps many people experience a sense of belonging akin to what they formerly experienced when they belonged to some religious organization?

"In most people the desire to belong is greater than the desire to understand. Hence the popularity of cults and religious organizations and the lack of the role of reason in human affairs." Thomas Szasz

I think that many people, deep down, know the truth. They don't want to face it. Telling them does nothing except perhaps make them think that you are Satan.

I think it's cultural too. "I am muslim, jewish, catholic" is about your history, your identity and as you say your tribe. In fact there are some who call themselves muslim atheists or jewish atheists..... which describes their cultural roots but don't agree with the dogma. The muslim world would consider me and most of you as 'christian' just because we are grouped together and our cultural background is what is being described.

I agree, for most people belief isn't about truth. If it was the vast majority would already be atheists. To "unconvert", a person may need to break from family, friends, church and even spouse. This rigs the system heavily in favor of religion.

When I present evidence, I am supporting a truth. When they see the evidence I present, they "feel" like I am attacking the world view they thrive in. They connect to this false information through years of echo chamber logic.

Giving people a alternative support system is every bit as important as convincing them of the false claims of religion.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

That's not just in regards to religious beliefs either. People don't give up any beliefs easily, even when confronted with facts.

It has been my experience that people feel that identifying with Christianity is synonymous with being a "good person". No matter how little, if ever, one practices ANY aspect of an individual's religion they are good people for simply identifying with a religion. That connection is iron clad in the minds of a large portion of the Christian population to the point that they cannot conceive that an openly atheist person is not a complete amoral psychopath. In their minds one who does not practice religion is OK but one who does not identify with a religion is evil. That is based on the old, albeit elementary, concept that Christians are responsible for all that is good and non-Christians are responsible for all that is evil. They cannot even CONSIDER not identifying with being a Christian even if they disagreed with every single tenant of Christianity. To say that it is an uphill battle to convince one who identifies as a Christan that being an atheist is OK can be a major understatement. Those folks are not coming around any time soon.

Why do you want to change anybody? they will change themselves when they want/or feel the need to - I feel agnosticism isn't for everybody and why should it be/ I don't want to live in totalitarian states where everyone has to be the same. I am not on a mission for anybody else's change and the only change I want ot make in my own life is acceptance of what is, rather than what i imagine ought to be - because I am certainly not going to change anything, especially in my U.K. government.

People like to feel accepted..acknowledged..respected..understood. Few like being outcasts...but who wants to fit in to a community obsessed about something you don't believe in...
Right now you are labelled as strange or odd because you declare yourself to be an unbeliever..
Some day people will be labelled weird for believing.....
Even if there was only one other Athiest on the planet...it would still be a preferable community to be a part of..than living a lie and hiding in the longrass...which I believe many millions quietly do.

I think you're on to something.

I think you make a very good point, a lot of church goers come for the community, especially these days. There just aren’t enough humanist places of worship for that secular stream to fill this gulf.

Yes indeed, and this is a point that the atheist activists like Dawkins and others have made, despite attacks from religionists and even sadly some non believers. What a lot of people get from religion is often not so much the beliefs, which they may not really believe at all, but the other stuff: community activities, the theatre and entertainment of religion, and that feeling of "belonging". It's a serious challenge in pursuing a non religious world. How to replace and substitute these things. Religions are cultural organisms as much as belief systems. There are those who will say that religion is good because of that. I don't agree. The fundamentals of religion are appalling: bad history, awful theology, terrible practise, corrupt activities, harm to people, directly and indirectly due to all those things. What you have raised is one of the most important questions. I do think that with religion in decline in the west, and religious attendance in particular, this aspect of the ongoing momentum of religion is declining.

I agree. I think you are describing the backfire effect. Here is a video that explains how that works.

i agree with your conclusion but not the reasoning for it. religion is certainly not the only way for people to achieve that feeling of belonging. however, there is no hope that by being militant we will ever get people to leave their superstitions behind. i think our real work is getting people to stop legislating them. without that, it doesn't even matter what people do or don't believe; believers and nonbelievers alike are more and more being compelled to tolerate living in a christian country (speaking of the usa, anyway). nothing is going to change internally as long as we tolerate that toxic environment.

g

Yes, it is false thinking, but not "completely", as there are soem peopel otu there who simply never havethought of or considered alternatives to the beliefs they were raised with.

However, the vast majority of religious persons so prefer their fantasies over facts and realities.

Personally, I am more inclined to try to get school to once again teach "logical fallacies" as a part of their curriculum. If people to learn to spot flaw in arguments (religious or political), then they are less likely to cling so strongly to religious views. This would not be a "cure all", but it woudl be a step in the right direction.

You hit the nail on the head! The feeling of belonging is what keeps most people in religion. I have heard jws say that if they had evidence that they were wrong, they would still remain in the cult.

The UU is a good choice as they welcome us and I served on the board of directors for 3 years and even provided a sermon one Sunday on atheism.

Yes it would be nicer to live in a world where religious superstition is a thing of the past, as an atheist I do not have a need or desire to "spread the word" and convert people away from faith and religion. I very much believe that every person has the right to think or believe whatever bat shit crazy stuff they want, as long as they are not hurting others.
it is one of the things that I understand the least about the faithful, why they seem to feel it is necessary to impose their beliefs and laws on others.
if you think being gay is wrong and that all gay people are going to hell, why do you protest why are you angry, why do you care that random strangers are gay, they are going to hell and you are not, end of story, sell them a cake and move on.
off topic tho lol
at times I have considered starting or looking for some kind of community that would provide similar things to a church experience without the faith part. actually I think I was a part of one for a while when I was younger, the issue with these groups is that without the god element people find it difficult to make attending regularly a priority and things fall apart. the other big issue is community size, the group I was a part of as a youth in northern Ontario (literally a group of parents and kids who were non religious gathering on Sundays so the kids could together) things started falling apart as A)kids aged out and B)people moved away,
in the pre internet days it would have been nearly impossible to establish an international community of atheists and agnostics, now tho seem possible, could be a good place to start if you mission is to wake people up to reality, providing an alternative community to take part in that has all of the benefits of a religious community just without the religion, might make it easier for the faithful to let go of the faith

Totally agree.

I absolutely agree. My father and I used to argue about a lot of things (religion not being one of them) and he would always say, 'you just don't understand' to which I would reply, 'No, I just think you're wrong.' Understanding doesn't have a lot to do with religious differences. What's going on is that organisms, human or otherwise animal, will stop doing things that don't provide reinforcement and will continue to do things that give them some sort of reward.

The fact that religious thought is so ubiquitous shows that people do got a lot out of it. Otherwise it would have disappeared. Also, when people make choices and then are challenged, their belief becomes stronger (it's called reactance). Since religion is so basic to some people's entire value system, and they chose that value system, disagreeing or arguing with them is only likely to deepen that belief.

I also think it's that element of "belief". We make up beliefs in the absence of any actual data, but the nature of the belief convinces us that our belief is "truth." This it comes built in with a self-defense mechanism. The beliefs about God also deal with those nagging questions that humans can't seem to live without answer to: Why are we here? What happens when we die? What's our purpose in life.

Belief answer all of those, and when that belief is taken away, with it go all the comforts those beliefs brought with them. I think beliefs are necessary since we've been doing it throughout our existence. They help us make sense out of the myriad of information bombarding us constantly, but we haven't figure out how to use them judiciously, and therefore we become their slaves rather than using them to help bridge gaps in our understanding until we have enough information to know otherwise.

If this was a "reasonable" debate, we wouldn't be having it. It's an emotional debate, and that's a whole other problem.