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With reference to "god's plan" and why god would do (or not do) certain things, or allow (or not allow) certain things, I've often heard this idea: that the mind of god is beyond our comprehension, that human logic doesn't apply to god, that as humans we just have to trust that god is doing what's best for us. Understanding is not required: only obedience.

Even when I was something of a believer, I remember being somewhat uncomfortable with this. Now, I call it what it is: a cop-out. An avoidance tactic. Why exactly are we humans not allowed to understand the creator's actions?

Which brings up the question: where does logic come from? For some believers the existence of logic is an indication of a creator -- it somehow exists independently of the mind. But if that is true, why would the actions of a creator not be logical? Why would it be impossible for us to understand the logic in all the pain and death that takes place?

In naturalistic terms, we can indeed grasp it. Life is both wonderful and terrible. Life can be dangerous, exciting, boring, difficult. There is joy, there is pain. There is life, there is death. We can find proximate purpose, even if we can't find ultimate purpose.

The true horror would come from the belief that it was purposely set up this way for us by a loving creator.

Omnedon 7 Nov 21
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37 comments

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9

Given that ALL gods and religion have been created by no one else but humans, it makes sense that building in obstacles to questioning the creators would occur.
It's the original form of gaslighting.

6

I can’t understand why anyone would believe that there is a god who created the universe as a test for humans to see if they were fit for his master plan of an eternal afterlife, like it was a gigantic reality competition. Loving creator he would not be, a sadist would be a more apt description. In any case, why, when we now know using scientific evidence that the age of the world is 5.6 billion years, did he only create humans and other animal life around 6,000 years ago according to the bible.

4

I agree with you. The thought of all this being part of a plan of some god that made the world as it is, with all its pain and suffering, because it needed tiny little finite beings to obey, fear, worship and love it--or else--is appalling. We can appreciate life because we see it as a struggle; and that everything here is part of that beautiful, and sometimes gruesome, struggle to survive.

Also, it is just downright willful ignorance for Bible believers to think their holy book is some sort of revelation to humans form this god, showing us what it wants of us. This "book" is simply too contradictory and inaccurate in so many ways to have been inspired by any perfect being; but, they are too blind to see this or refuse to acknowledge it if they do have a glimmer of reason try to sneak into their minds.

4

Theists say this about their god then turn right around and tell you what god is thinking, what god is wanting, what god is going to do, why god does what he does.

Very true. On the one hand, god is mysterious and unknowable. On the other hand, god is personal and very knowable.

Hilarious!!!

3

These issues bothered me when I was a believer, as well. One thing that stood out in my mind is why god does not "abide" by the laws he set set in motion. It is a sin for humans to kill innocent people, but Yahweh could kill thousands of babies and children in a flood. His people could write a psalm saying how sweet it was to bash the heads of the enemy's babies against the rocks. When I asked my pastor about these issues, he said that those babies would grow up to the be the enemy. That explanation flabbergasted me. And babies went to heaven, so that made it fine, too.

3

"The true horror would come from the belief that it was purposely set up this way for us by a loving creator."

That sums it up nicely.

The whole idea of a god that is beyond comprehension is simply, as you stated, a cop out, because believers have no answer as to why their god would do such crazy and horrid things. With some believers, the more you question them on this, the more bizarre thier explanations become. I feel bad for them.

3

Yes. I never understood ethics until I freed myself from the "just listen and obey" hogwash. Now I can work out in my mind why some actions are bad -- they hurt others -- or why other actions are good -- they help others. I am happier now, living my life based on comprehensible ethics.

2

I think I'm just now at the point of acceptance. I'm tired of questioning the why. There is no real truth. People all believe what makes them comfortable. I think all we can do is seek inner peace.

No real truth? What is objective reality?

Is it okay to find inner peace through a misunderstanding or delusion? Ignorance is bliss?

I think I'm getting there. It was painful at times. The best lessons were. Ultimately the only thing that is important is love. No hate, no dislike, no distrust. Just love. It did take a lot of pain to get there. It really doesn't matter whether there is god or not. Gods are human constructs to make them feel more secure. Trouble is they don't.

2

"Logic" is putting value on things by observing or assessing life using our senses and our experiences and then reacting to that. We're born and we experience the world. We learn that touching a hot stove makes us uncomfortable according to our baseline experience. We learn that being a good lil' dude gets us a treat. This is science.

Regarding the concept of "understanding all the pain and death that takes place" – That's experientially impossible. For one, "pain" is subjective. If I stub my toe, I don't care. If my neighbor does, he might double over like he was punched by Mike Tyson. Multiply the possibilities exponentially and the lifetimes it would take to understand "all" are unfathomable.

Also, who is this loving creator and what's the evidence for this being?

I guess I should have said: if all of this was set up by a creator, then why should we not be able to understand the reasons, instead of simply having to accept it? In reality, not everything is understandable. Not everything is logical.

2

" I've often heard this idea: that the mind of god is beyond our comprehension, that human logic doesn't apply to god, that as humans we just have to trust that god is doing what's best for us. Understanding is not required: only obedience."

These types of rationale are a large part of why I am Ignostic. As an atheist I lack belief in Gods, but in reality I lack a hell of a lot more than that, I lack an adequate definition of a God NOT to believe in. Rather the idea of God always boils down to what you assert above.
"that the mind of god is beyond our comprehension, that human logic doesn't apply to god, that as humans we just have to trust that god is doing what's best for us"
Being nonetheless asserted by another human, who obviously cannot understand the God he purports to follow, because they admit in the end it is a mystery.

A question mark God.

I am an Ignostic

I was raised a believer
AS a believer I thought understanding God of the utmost import.
SO I studied that.
Which is why I am today an Igtheist/Ignostic

Ignosticism is an Epistomologic position; it is a set of ideas refuting the importance of determining the existence of God. It claims that knowledge regarding the reality of God is altogether unprofitable.

It is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts; including (but not limited to) concepts of faith, spirituality, heaven, hell, afterlife, damnation, salvation, sin and the soul.

Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the term god has no coherent and unambiguous definition.

IF you cannot even define what you are talking about, or consider it beyond human understanding, how is it you can claim to know anything about it and keep your intellectual integrity intact?

1

I guess It's been long enough... I had vaguely hoped someone would catch the Babylon 5 quote here: "Understanding is not required: only obedience." 🙂

1

"The mind of god is beyond our comprehension, ...human logic doesn't apply to god" are the perfect phrases created unilaterally by the clergy to declare us unable to discuss their teachings...

I agree. We may never be able to understand some things but that doess not mean we should not try to understand anything. Some things we CAN understand.

1

It's just a cop-out by religious people, to explain why the real world is dangerous and random despite their assertion that some logical being is running things.

1

Really like your post. Especially the last line:
"The true horror would come from the belief that it was purposely set up this way for us by a loving creator."
I'd like to use it as a quote and reference your name when discussing this with my theists friends.
Richard Dawkins used this phrase "cop-out" and "God of the Gaps" that where there are voids our mind can't fill, the answers will always circle back to "... because god."

To me, logic is more instinct, and from instinct we have learned behavior, but somewhere along the lines of questioning why things are they way they are, technology limited the science and reasoning for many things, and learned behavior ended up becoming tradition, or "superstition."

Growing up as a catholic, with a best friend who (still) is a Christian Orthodox, he would reprimand me with things he'd consider 'sin' as not being able to receive "luck" from god, to which later the term he swapped for 'blessing.'

I'd ask him, "what about all those who do good by god and still get punished?"
He'd reply, "well, that's just god testing you, we can't question his ethics, he's GOD!"

"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

  • Richard Feynman

That quote is the opposite how theists live.

1

This thought process seems to be an excuse to surrender power to brainless unquestioning religious morons who choose to manipulate the weak.

How would a brainless unquestioning moron manipulate anyone? I'm not sure I get the point here...

@Omnedon Visit any Pentecostal church

1

My sister in law once looked at me incredulously and asked, "You mean you don't believe that God has a plan for you?" I answered with a question, "Did God have a plan for that 14 year old boy who almost escaped from Jeffrey Dahmer but was so drugged and disoriented that the cops found him and took him back to Dahmer's place where the poor child ended up being the main entree?"

Deb57 Level 8 Nov 21, 2019
1

It's funnyhow God's plan is always exactly what the speaker wants.

1

Correlates to the "god of the gaps" argument. Whatever cannot be explained through reason or scientific rationale is then relegated to "God's will," which we are ostensibly too stupid to understand.

It's more than a cop-out, it's a method for the deity's subjugated people to passively accept those things that are highly unreasonable or unfair.

1

Fantasy land

bobwjr Level 10 Nov 21, 2019
1

It's absolutely a hard avoidance tactic, used to justify the authoritarian world view imposed by the bible.

0

For me it is a case of the men in power thought, "I can not answer that, there is no answer for that," and so went unknowable, unfathomable do not question, blind obedience obey obey etc. It is all a load of made up rubbish. If there is a sky fairy out there then it is malicious, vindictive and nasty not something I would want to put my faith in.

0

This premise of superhuman logic is somehow also connected to Goedel’s incompleteness theorem which states that no system can prove its own logical consistency. Applied to relatively simple systems like a small computer ( logic solver ), this theorem can be proved. Application to a larger system is complicated. But before going further on investigation on a scale of the Universe, we must first resolve the question of Intelligent Design.

If intelligent design is accepted then I would say the designer is both cruel and has an incredible sense of humor. 350,000 beetle species? The platypus?

@A-Gnostic or sarcastic??? 🤣
I don’t believe either or of any omnipotent creator.

0

"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible." SClemens
so don't get me wrong ok, i detest religious ppl almost as much as Yah does 🙂
imo find the Jesus Who appropriated all of the Caesar's titles, "son of God, Messiah," etcetc, with two middle fingers turned alla way up at the man! Baptizing ppl in the Jordan in a theocracy is tantamount to sedition, right?
[abarim-publications.com]

I don't detest religious people. Several of my friends are religious. Atheists are still in a minority in this country so there's no escaping it. My parents were religious, and though I don't share the views that they held, I still loved them, and miss them.

There are religious people I like, and those I dislike, just as with most other groups.

@Omnedon Not getting angry is something I've been working on very hard. I know "Trump-build-the-wall-ers" and on a day to day basis they are nice, open and decent (but still misguided) people. It's a weird conundrum/paradox but I'm learning to state my opinion while keeping my sanity intact. I think they're wrong on so many levels. But I have to live with their crazy as much as they think they have to live with MY anti-American dreams of a fair tax based healthcare, free college, and a capitalist/socialist mixed utopian system.

@Omnedon the heir is under servants until he inherits, even though he is lord of all
No Son of Man may die for another's sins

0

a couple thought questions, that you might relate to yours:
why could a prepubescent teen declare "i hate you" to their parents, the only two ppl supporting them? Arent the decisions of the parents "logical?"
Which of the Decalogue do you have issues following? I guess like at least 5 of these predate Moses, likely from Hammurabi's Code.
So, it might be impossible for you/us to understand the logic in "all the pain and death that takes place" mostly bc of our unique perspective, which naturally suggests to us that things were better yesterday than they are today, despite the reality that life is better right now than it ever has been, by any measure you might care to use, [wikiwand.com] , [moralityindex.com] these are the good old days 🙂
ps, "logic" rose about the same time "Jesus" did, more or less, right? Before that most everyone thought "naively," or in what we call the "eastern dialectic" now, hence why Orientals play baseball games to deliberate ties and whatnot i guess. ok peace

I'm not sure what you're asking here... Naturally people don't always act logically. We are emotional beings. We make irrational decisions all the time.

As for the difficulties of life, I'm not suggesting they are driven by logic. I'm just suggesting they are not driven by some supreme intelligence. If life is just the way it is, with all the good and all the bad, then I can accept it; but if there's a definite plan behind the suffering, that's another matter.

@bbyrd009 I would agree that life is probably better now than at any time in the past. Nevertheless there is still great suffering in the world. How do you think it would feel to starve to death? Would the concept of perception of entropy enter your mind?

@Omnedon "I'm not sure what you're asking here... Naturally people don't always act logically. We are emotional beings. We make irrational decisions all the time." ergo so much for that theory then, right?

@bbyrd009 What theory are you talking about? How is this relevant?

@Omnedon "Nevertheless there is still great suffering in the world. How do you think it would feel to starve to death? Would the concept of perception of entropy enter your mind?" ha prolly not, good point. And as a former believer i used to hold that suffering was caused by our selfish actions, but i guess all elephants die of starvation, when their molars get ground away finally? Someone will say thats bc we ruined their habitat, and natural diet though i guess, dunno. I sure don't get it either bro

@Omnedon "What theory are you talking about? How is this relevant?" sorry, just too hard to hold a decent convo here, wasnt that important anyway prolly.

@Omnedon but back to the kids saying "i hate you" thing, bc they are "suffering" iow...i know this sounds weird, but i wonder if in some way even starving to death is irrelevant? Everything dies some kinda "horrible" way mostly anyway, yeh?

@bbyrd009 Sorry, I think I had the wrong perception here. As we know, text communication can be problematic. I had the feeling that this conversation was more adversarial than it is.

True, when people are suffering, they sometimes say and do things that they would not normally say or do. And yes -- every living thing dies, and it's never pleasant. It's for that reason that I can somewhat understand the need to feel that there is something after that.

@Omnedon yes, Pharaohs and Caesars and whatever Chinese emperors were, all forwarded immortalilty for themselves i guess; can't find it in the Bible anywhere though...

and the adversarial thing was surely on me, i have issues 🙂

0

"God's plan" originally was the "plan of non-existance." Yes, the plan of non-existance was a non-existent plan in the beginning because there was no existence to have a plan. However, as we scientificly now understand the scientific "Bang" brought about existence and just totally screwed up the original non-existent plan of non-existance.

I do not understand how people cannot understand non-existent flying spaghetti monster sky God have a non-existent plan be non-existent flying spaghetti monster sky God is not know to exist there for must be non-existent and existence just screws up the non-existent plan for total word domination of non-existance in the first place.

God damn word "BANG" just screwed it up for everyone and we have to now exist in pathetic crap no one asked for it in the first place. the biblical text even tells of this word in the beginning. John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and was God. John 1:14 ... the word become flesh.

So, bang and now you are a person in flesh being forced to exist.

Word Level 8 Nov 21, 2019
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