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I’ve listened patiently for a few months trying to understand the dichotomy between Agnostics & Atheists on this website. What I’m about to write I mean no offense.

There is a huge difference on how we described ourselves. An Agnostic hedges their answer to a god’s existence, while an Atheist has flushed it from their belief system. Using MyersBriggs I would say Agnostics are Introverts & Atheists are extroverts.

I would be interested in any comments & thought.

ChurchLess 7 Dec 18
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63 comments

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0

As an agnostic I don't know if there's a god or not.
Atheists take a definite stand: no god!
That simple.

I disagree.I am an atheist and I do not "KNOW" whether or not a god exists. I simply do not BELIEVE that any exist. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any gods, it is not in any way a claim of knowledge.

@Joanne Same thing.
And I'm not saying you're WRONG.
It's that permanent uncertainty that drives believers--theist and atheist alike--up the wall. 'ChurchLess' mistakenly says, out of apparent exasperation, agnostics are "hedging our bets..."
Ha!
What 'bet' would THAT be, as if there are winners and losers!
Just saying that tells you everything you need to know about ChurchLess!
Depending on your point of view, my opinion is we ALL win and we ALL lose; it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks!"

@Storm1752 There are a few atheists I have come across who basically claim to know there is no god; but, the vast majority will say it is unknowable. I am certain of my non-belief. There is nothing that makes me think there is any kind of god being/self aware consciousness--anywhere, in any universe, in any dimension. I am simply not arrogant enough to say that I have can know this with 100% certainty; and I think the majority of atheists agree with me. That said, I think it can be shown that certain/specific gods cannot exist.

@Joanne There are plenty of things which give me pause. How about crop circles? How about psychics like Edgar Cayce? Look at the pyramids, which are almost impossible to explain away; clearly the work of an advanced civilization/extraterrestrials...maybe THEY were god. And reincarnation--many case histories clearly suggest past lives.
There are MANY unexplainable phenomena which expose the limits of our understanding. Someday we may explain them. Someday we may explain 'god' in terms our minds can comprehend.
It's plausible other worlds have produced civilizations hundreds of thousands or even millions of years old. Who knows how far their consciousnesses have evolved--maybe into immortal, godlike creatures. It's possible.
So I'm not willing to limit my imagination or my conception of what is possible to what we know here and now in 2019 on planet Earth.
If YOU want to, be my guest.

@Storm1752 Crop circles have been explained, and exposed for the hoaxes that they are. There has never been any verified psychic phenomena. I don't claim to know everything; but I see no evidence to cause me to think that there is anything to paranormal experiences beyond hoaxes and wishful, or even fearful, thinking.

I absolutely believe there is all kinds of life throughout the universe; and I hope we find verified proof before I die; but, I have no desire to call any other possible being a "god," no matter how evolved they might be. If there are beings that have evolved far beyond us, then they, like us, are products of the same eternal energy that gave birth to our universe and to us--they are not gods.

@Joanne Crop circles have NOT been exposed as hoaxes. You just read an article or two about men with boards and string and looked away. They are still forming all over the world and cannot be explained away.
Edgar Cayce was a verified, proven psychic.
The pyramids could not have been built by ancient men with their limited technology and knowledge of the world, the stars, construction, etc.
Telepathy is a real thing.
Reincarnation has been more or less "proven" circumstantially.
You want to reject everything beyond your comprehension.
Anyway, I'm not saying any of this makes a god or gods necessary. I've no idea about that and never will.
It DOES make an open mind necessary, though.

@Storm1752 Did Edgar Cayce collect his million dollar reward that was offered by James Randi to anyone who could prove they are truly psychic or telepathic? And, crop circles have been shown again and again to be hoaxes and completely human made.

I don't know what to say; but you choose to believe this stuff is real, and that is your right. As for me, I require testable, provable, verifiable, evidence and I have seen none.

@Joanne For one thing, Cayce has been dead since 1945 (?) and anyway the man you mentioned was a fraud himself. Many psychics came forward, but we're thwarted by ever-changing ground rules making collection of the "million dollar reward" impossible.
Have you actually READ anything about the Giza pyramids? I suggest you give it more than a superficial glance, THEN tell me what you think.
Anything on extraterrestrials? True, no specific proof, but if you can't follow logical threads to their logical conclusions and extrapolate certain things, you're just not thinking
Crop circles? Sure there have been hoaxsters, but that doesn't at all mean they account for ALL of them; in fact, it's been "proven" some cannot be explained away.
I'm not saying there is anything existent outside the normal physical laws which govern the universe. Far from it.
No magic tricks, miracles, fantastical creatures, etc.
I'm only saying a, say, million-year-old civilization, would know more about those physical laws than you and I.
There's no reason to absolutely reject the possibility these 'entities' have discovered things far beyond what we know at the present time on THIS planet.
And I'm saying there's no harm speculating, given the pace OUR knowledge is advancing at an ever accelerating rate, that knowledge would theoretically have no limit.
I know you want to keep everything "fact-based;" so do I.
That doesn't stop ME from being filled with wonder at our very existence, and having "spiritual" feelings as a result. That doesn't make me a starry-eyed dreamer, and there's nothing 'pie-in-the-sky' about speculating about the mysteries surrounding us.
Someday we'll know more. I wish I could put myself in the deep freeze and thaw myself out a thousand years from now and see where we're at then.
Okay so I dream a little bit.

9

As an atheist, I would like to state that you make a common mistake when describing atheists. Atheists do not have a "belief system". Atheism is defined as: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. I do not believe in god, gods, the zodiac, the tao, numerology, paganism, angels, or any other believe system, including "spirituality". I do not have a religiously based "belief system."

9

I give absolutely no credence whatsoever to Myers-Briggs testing.
None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Just because it's popularly accepted, referred to, and used by HR departments and
others, doesn't make it remotely accurate.

For myself, I'm an atheist, an anti-theist, and I really don't like people in general.
I don't think I'm an introvert or an extrovert.
If credible, verifiable evidence to prove the existence of ANY god is ever made
available, I'll reconsider my position.
Beyond that, I see absolutely no reason to justify or otherwise explain my complete
lack of belief in any gods.

As far as religion goes, I believe it's all man-made and it's all evil.

8

The terms aren't mutually exclusive as one can be both as am I. Its easy to understand. agnostic answer the question of what you KNOW or claim to know, while atheism answer what you BELIEVE. I'm an Agnostic Athesit. Meaning I don't Know (agnostic) if a god/gods exist and I don't believe / convinced (atheism) one does.

7

I'm an agnostic and I don't hedge any answer to the question of the existence of a god or gods. I have no answer and I don't need any answer.

7

introverted atheist here....

6

You're gonna run into obstacles whenever you try to fit humans neatly into little defined packages. Way too many variables among all of us, which could be changing as I write !

5

Atheists come in different varieties. The basic definition of atheism is one who lacks belief or disbelieves in a God or gods. There are implicit atheists (e.g., babies and puppies) who have no concept of any god and therefore lack belief, and there are explicit atheists who understand the concept and reject it. Within explicit atheism are two stripes: negative (or soft, or weak) atheism, and positive (or hard, or strong) atheism. A negative atheist is one who lacks a belief in a God or gods, but does not claim that no God or gods exist; a positive atheist is one who claims that no God or gods exist. Put another way, the negative atheist is unconvinced by the claim that "God or gods exist" and disregards it. It is the negative stance, because it rejects the claim rather than asserts one. By contrast, the positive atheist is making a positive claim, i.e., no God or gods exist.

Agnostics also have a couple of meanings, from "I don't know" to "it is unknowable" whether a God or gods exist. Some people use the label "agnostic atheist" to mean "negative atheist." I use the phrase because more people know what the words mean, but I also sometimes just call myself a non-theist. Some people are "pure" agnostics, which basically places them as a "definite maybe" where they consider the proposition for God/gods to be equally plausible as the proposition against.

There are other labels, too, like "ignosticism," meaning that the concept or definition of "God" is too nebulous to be meaningful or to have a qualified opinion about.

Considering that there are a variety of stripes of atheism and agnosticism, I don't think I'd be able to draw any correlation between these terms and introversion and extraversion. On the other hand, it might be a fun experiment to determine what people believe or don't believe and compare it to various personality traits. I know that some people think being an atheist is always a rational decision, but I'm not certain that's necessarily or entirely the case. There might be some interesting correlations.

For the record, I'm quite introverted and I'm a negative atheist.

Good clear and not too long, they should post this at the top of the front page for all the Newbies to read. (Save having to answer this question fifty times a month.) For added interest I always call myself a 'broard church sceptic'.

@Fernapple Yes, the ongoing debate over definitions gets a little wearisome after a while. There are some people here, even seasoned members, who insist that atheism is exclusively the positive stance; at this point, that's willful ignorance (or, more likely, strawman argumentation, e.g., "atheists are just as irrational as theists because both make a claim without evidence to back it up" ). It's my experience that there are more atheists of the negative variety, who don't claim it couldn't be but rather don't accept the claim itself as having merit, treating it similarly to how one might react to claims re healing crystals, Sasquatch, or a Nigerian prince giving away millions of dollars. Sure, these claims might be true, but there is no convincing reason to think they are and, therefore, it is reasonable to dismiss the claims and live without constantly worrying about Bigfoot destroying my property. Theists sometimes fall back to, "Yeah, but you can't prove that there isn't a God, so it's just as likely there is," trying to justify their belief as being as valid as another's non-belief or skepticism. While it's wrong in the case of negative atheism, their position is also inconsistent when it's actually held up to other positive claims of religion; Christians don't accept Islam as being just as likely; Orthodox Jews don't consider Hinduism to be just as plausible; Scientologists don't accept LDS claims as having equal weight. But atheists are told that we must give credence to theism in whatever forms it takes because we "can't prove it isn't true."

5

I was born an ebullient extrovert. Extrovert and introvert are personality traits.

Choosing to be atheist or agnostic is a rational decision. It has nothing to do with personality traits.

Have been an atheist since age 13, when I realized the Bible is just a book of stories written by men. Like Grimm's Fairy Tales.

4

Instead of trying to categorize us, maybe you should focus on which of those defines you.

4

That's rather presumptuous to assume. Even Richard Dawkins admits that atheism/agnosticism exists along a spectrum.

4

I don't believe in generalization. The splitting of non believers groups is caustic. This internal tribalism is not healthy to the movement.

Always call myself a 'broard church sceptic'.
(But I spell it the UK way.)

4

I am curious as to why you've chosen the Myers Briggs tests to compare the two. I personally don't see how belief system corresponds with personality type as belief is not based on personality but experience.

4

I'm at introvert unless I'm drunk or offended. I'm a total atheist.

4

...trying to understand the dichotomy between Agnostics & Atheists on this website.

And yet zero differance in how they live thier lives. But boy oh boy is it ever importaint that we not believe the right way. For some reason.

1of5 Level 8 Dec 18, 2019
3

The def of "dichotomy" is 2 things that are opposed/opposite. Atheist & Agnostic are simply on a scale leading from abject worship to free thinking. I prefer less fomenting of divisiveness, myself.

3

It’s not a binary. There are all sorts here. I’m a non-theist humanist.

UUNJ Level 8 Dec 19, 2019
3

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments, even the nasty comments and the know it alls. We are surely a diverse group. What I also learned is each person appears to have their own personal reason why they identify as one or the other. I wish you all well.

3

Well,call it what you may wish but me, I'm just a plain old, ordinary, Heathen, Heretic, Atheistic, Aussie Bloke.

3

I may be a fellow atheist, but don’t feel like I “flushed” anything from my “belief system.” I just don’t buy into the idea of gods as anything other than metaphors, the same way I don’t believe what I hear in advertisements.

3

I'd say it has to do with how much research a person does. An agnostic has not done enough research to become an atheist. An atheist has done too much research to be an agnostic. I, for example, have spent years looking for evidence on both sides of the issue -- the religious side and the anti-religious side. I have found no convincing evidence supporting religion, and much evidence in favor of atheism. Therefore, I am an atheist. I do admit the possibility (not a probability) that I have missed some research that could turn me back toward religion. But until such evidence comes to my attention, I remain an atheist. Whenever a missionary approaches me, I ask for evidence for what they are preaching. So far, nobody has been able to show me enough evidence to turn me away from atheism. In fact, this tactic causes missionaries to tire of me and abandon me, which is most often a good riddance. 🙂

i didn't do any research. what is there to research? i had to read hitchens to be convinced there are no gods when their nonexistence is so glaringly obvious to me? i stopped believing in any gods when i was 15 and i don't need to read about someone else's reason for not believing in any to justify my own. i don't think research is a bad thing; i love researching (other topics, for other reasons). i don't need to do it to validate myself. research can be so selective, you can prove or disprove pretty much anything if you just read what supports what you already want to find. i don't diss agnostics or think they're lacking in strength or remiss in the research department any more than i diss myself by pretending to be arrogant, as atheists are sometimes said to be. we're PEOPLE. why pigeonhole us?

g

@Doraz You are fortunate. I had years of brainwashing to overcome. 🙂

3

I'm an agnostic atheist. I do not believe in any deity, but I have no proof of my beliefs.

I am, however, definitely an introvert. If I say 10 words to anyone other than my doggy-doo, that's a good day.

2

To me "agnostic" means I don't know. Which means I have neither belief in a god, nor belief that there is no god. The "I don't know" is carefully selected because there is so much to know and I know so little. For example, according to a branch of mathematics called "String Theory," there are a minimum of seven dimensions. We humans (or at least I) only understand 3 1/2 dimensions: up/down, left/right, forward/back, and the half is time because we only experience it in one direction. So, let's talk about something I also don't know, and I don't think you do, either. How about the fifth dimension? What does it taste like? Is it warm, or fuzzy, or sharp, etc. What does it smell like? Are there creatures there? Tell me about the fifth dimension... but I bet you can't because you simply don't know. That is the way I look at god. I don't believe in a god, but how can I affirmatively believe that god does not exist; the whole topic is one about which I have no knowledge whatsoever.

2

I would characterize myself as philosophically agnostic but functionally atheist. As one trained in science I have to admit that the fact that there is no evidence of a thing's existence does not prove its non-existence. So I have to leave open the possibility of god's existence. I cannot say for sure there is no god l. I just don't know. That's the agnostic me. However, as an individual who is familiar with world mythologies and the human tendency to anthropomorphize and ascribe intention and intelligence to all manner of inanimate objects, and at the same time taking stock if the glaring absence of evidence, I have to say that the probability of god's existence is vanishingly small. If I were to quantify that probability, I would say I am 99.999999999999999999% sure there is no god. There is my functional atheist.

I object to being labelled an atheist. The term pre-supposes theism as the "normal" or "correct" mental state. Furthermore, if we look at the English lexicon, we find no special terms for people who do not believe in witches, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, or any number of other fictitious characters. The term "atheist" has historically been used as a pejorative, an indictment, an accusation. It is not a fair term. It is chauvinistic. It strips away a person's right to critical thinking.

2

Speaking for myself. As an atheist, I worship no god. As an agnostic, I'm open to scientific proof of something not yet seen. I am not open to worshiping it if it was proven.

2

The only dichotomy is a false dichotomy. I’m an athiest and agnostic. People also have different uses of those words. So you have to address that too.

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