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Do you think it is possible for a professing Christian to be agnostic? Do you know any that fit the description?

It has often seemed to me that a Christian should be able to claim the descriptor "agnostic" as well, provided that they acknowledge their faith is more a matter of hope. Some beliefs are operational rather than evidence based. Most of us don't bother to come up with formal arguments to support our assumption that our memories are based on actual past experience and not the diddling in our brains by some mad scientist. So operationally I am a realist whether or not I can defeat every contrived alternative explanation.

I know one Christian on-line who is a highly educated linguist with much, much more knowledge about interpreting text than I'll ever have. She does not come right out and say she is an agnostic but she acknowledges she could be mistaken about what she chooses to believe on faith. She thinks Christian apologetics is pretty pointless, but no more so than the arguments against the existence of gods made on the other side.

I can't help but respect her so much more than the vast majority of Christian I know and meet. Unfortunately Christianity seems to consist of a small, educated leader class (not all of whom are all that bright) and a huge, uneducated follower class who are often entirely uninformed about the tenets of their religion except for the guidance provided by the leader class.

MarkWD 7 Mar 4
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27 comments

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There are ordained ministers in the Church of England who admit to being agnostic, I’ve heard one of them say so on TV. They maintain that being Christian is not incompatible with being skeptical about the nature of god. What they believe in is the gospels of the NT and Christ himself, and his teachings. They don’t give literal credence to the OT, and regard it as a Jewish history book which only gives background context leading to the birth of Jesus, the main focus of their faith.

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Sounds like the entire liberal wing of the Church of England.

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There are many agnostic Christians. It’s unfortunate that in some Western countries Christianity has been hijacked for political advantage, with fringe believes such as the Rapture becoming mainstream by the use of exclusive rhetoric.

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Depends on your sub sect of xtiananity, some will assent doubt as a normal part of life, others as an attack by the enemy or a weakness of your own character.
That is why there are so many damn sects . . .

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"Do you think it is possible for a professing Christian to be agnostic?"

Not only is it possible, but it could be the rule, not the exception--we just don't know. Who knows how many self-professed Christians--from the pulpit to the pew--are in fact internal agnostics and atheists, fearful of what might happen if they 'came out?' The fear of being shunned, or even unemployed, can outweigh the desire to self-express, and thus a 'double life' may be lived. And while some may pass judgment against such 'paradoxical' behavior as being hypocritical, they really shouldn't.

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The answer depends in part on what is meant by 'faith'. Since the enlightenment, many have redefined the term to create a binary between belief based on evidence of some kind and belief that is blind. However, at both the philosophical and theological level, such a binary is highly contestable.
The real argument should be whether or not faith is based on sufficient credible historical, literary and archaeological evidence or not. And epistemic humility will mean that someone like the highly educated linguist you know will admit to the possibility she might be mistaken. Does that make her agnostic? Not if she acts according to her beliefs. I am agnostic now but she may well not be.

@JohnnyQB That is not correct. It is true that some people use the word to mean belief without evidence, and that has its antecedent in Hume and Kant. However, the Greek word of the 1st C CE means 'trust' or 'reliance', and is used in contexts in which the person who has 'faith' does so based on some event. Thus faith is based on evidence. Of course, you and I may wish to contest the evidence, but the view that 'faith' is blind is not consistent with how the word is used in the 1st C CE or the BCE era for that matter.

"'Does that make her agnostic? Not if she acts according to her beliefs. I am agnostic now but she may well not be." But then if I live in accordance with my belief that 'gods' have no independent existence, does that mean I cannot also be agnostic? I believe belief can go with agnosticism if you're smart enough to see through the apparent obstacle, just like our belief that whatever this business is people carry on about gods can be true even while we acknowledge our dearth of evidence.

Oops, misspoke. I meant to say our belief that gods do not exist can very well reside next to our recognition of our agnosticism.

@MarkWD If you act according to a belief that gods have no independent existence, then you would be either an agnostic or an atheist (it would depend on whether or not you believe gods have a dependent existence, and, if so, if that upon which they depend is objective or subjective (in the mind of the person who believes). A person who believes in the Christian God, admits the possibility they may be wrong, but nonetheless lives according to their beliefs is surely not an agnostic. If one were to describe such a person as agnostic then this term would become so elastic as to have no meaning.

@JohnnyQB I'm not arguing on what I personally believe: I am calling out a popular but factually wrong view of how the Greek and hebrew words for faith are used and what they mean. yes, some will use 'faith' to mean what you claim it means, but that's not how many if not most believers use this term.
Some arguments against believers lack credibility.

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Yes, it's a thing: [en.wikipedia.org] More common in Europe. Your priest/minister may not approve though.

Might they at least disapprove in an agreeable manner?

@MarkWD We can hope for civility

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Nope. A Christian cannot acknowledge doubt in any shape, way, form or fashion if they are to be true to their religion. Complete faith in their God is a central tenet of their system and without it, you're 'lost'.

Sorry, I put my reply to you after SanDiego's post. This was meant for you.

It is rare but I know some who cop to agnosticism out of recognition of their own limitation while hanging onto faith in hope. It seems like a fine dance for them to take the position but some manage.

@MarkWD Like many so called Christians compartmentalize their faith. Christian scientists are particularly adept at this, knowing that what they profess to believe is completely impossible yet continuing to profess belief. Unfortunately, this leads to very un-Christlike Christians.

@sterlingdean Yeah, boastful and pushy is often the norm online.

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Here’s an interesting article. One of most famous Christians Mother Teresa suffered crisis of faith and said she went 50 years without feeling gods presence. She sure sounds a little agnostic to me.

[time.com]

They made her a saint, I'd have classified her as a pathological martyr.

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Truth be told, faith is more like "hope." It even says that in the bible. What is not clear is if you cross your fingers when you have this sort of hope. I like Mark Twain who said "faith is believing what you know ain't so." That pretty well covers it.

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Yes; I think for some their Christian faith is their willingness to live their lives on the hope that it is true--in spite of their (agnostic) doubts.

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Yes, encourage it. It is what skepticism is all about and it is a good jumping off space for a new belief system.

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Sure it's possible.. Many atheists and agnostics were once religious...

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I think you can think anything you want. You already DO.
I have very serious doubts whether a man called 'Jesus Christ's existed. I guess it's possible but I don't believe it. A 'Christ Consciousness' is different, and I DO believe it is very possible.
But that's my particular opinion, based on what I've read and my experience. That doesn't make it positively so.
Same with you.

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Yep. I went through the motions for years just so I could belong to the community and be normal...

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You either believe in bullshit or you don't. Period.

Has anyone ever complemented you on your nuanced way of looking at things?

@p-nullifidian many times.

@p-nullifidian Hey mofo actually posted a whole paragraph yesterday ! It was special

@twill not a rarity my funny friend, but I do prefer brief, straight and to the point.. And even my 1 or two paragraphs are short and sweet, definitely not snore inducing and much less, boring.

@Mofo1953 I swear that was the 1st time I saw you post more than 10 words at once!

@twill depends on the group I post.

@Mofo1953 Gotcha

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I see no conflict with someone believing in Christ (Christian) but not knowing (agnostic).

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Seems that the more a person knows about religion, through rational thought, facts and historical facts/ politics, the less religious they are likely to be. Generally speaking.
That said, I played the Agnostic person for a long time. Seemed like a safe place. Besides Atheists are all Devil Worshippers anyway, and I wasn't one of "them".

About 5 years ago I decided enough of that ! And as my "education" continues I know that I made the right choice for me.

twill Level 7 Mar 11, 2020
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Stop the BS! Why would you repeatedly believe something when there is no evidence?

Not sure who or what you are addressing here.

@MarkWD I'm addressing those who want the middle ground - agnostic.

@Atheist3 I don't really think agnostics represent a middle ground. They're simply the ones paying attention to their epistemic position and respecting others' right to decide for themselves where a conclusive argument isn't possible in either direction. Of course agnostics can still nonetheless honestly harbor no belief in any gods, or they can find their upbringing affords them such belief even if they realize they can't adequately justify it. So, it seems to me, you can have agnostic atheists (very common) and agnostic theists (much more rare).

@MarkWD BS! Agnostic means "a lack of knowledge". Same as the word 'ignorant'. Hence the word, ignostic. However if you check out agnostos theos on Wikipedia you will find that agnostics believed in a god that was hidden. They only lacked knowledge of the god but still believed in a god. They were theists. Stop the BS!

@Atheist3 "Stop the BS" yourself. How does what you said in anyway imply that anyone expressing a different opinion in BS'ing?

@MarkWD If a person wants to hang a label on oneself, then they should, at least, know where the label comes from & stop bs'ing.

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Christianity exists to allow people to feel irresponsible for their behavior, and forever unable to receive consequences. So nobody is a real Christian to begin with. The religion is still doing a lot of damage to other people though.

Do cars exist in order to allow people to drive recklessly? It seems gratuitous to define .Christianity in terms of one of its unintended results.

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Tricky question. There are atheist Christians who like the messages Jesus taught, but don’t believe in gods. But to me, you kind of have to believe in Jesus, which should include a relation with a God that goes with the story. So kind of hard to say you believe Jesus, but don’t know about Yahweh?

Of course one might believe that Jesus was a real man who when he died stayed dead. But if they believe in a resurrection, they must think that Jesus himself was god.

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I can see how some people may say if there is a god then this would be my religion.

I think more often people experience something within which seems to be separate from them and assume it must be the god people in their culture speak of. What else could it be?

Of course it could also be something happening in the depths of their consciousness which doesn't fall under their conscious control, like dreams.

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Yes.

skado Level 9 Mar 4, 2020
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No. It is not.




--

Webster dictionary definition of Christian:

"One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"


Webster dictionary definition of Agnostic:

"A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable."

You should move to France and take up that language. Those guys guard the definitional and usage ramparts against all deviation, or so I hear. English though has been a very promiscuous language and probably always will be. It forces you to use more words in order to pin down what you have in mind.

@MarkWD Wow Mark, so because I quoted the dictionary in a fairly relaxed thread . . . I should move to France eh?

@Observer-Effect I assure you it wasn’t meant with hostile intent. That’s just me being playful but sorry if you took it that way.

@MarkWD Ah, then I apologize back - I was being thin skinned! 🙂 I had just got done talking to some superstitious twits who were being nearly threatening to me. They are homeopathic believers, and I once created a homeopathic uranium preparation for the sole purpose of mocking their idiocy . . . and it makes them mad!

** For your entertainment: [sites.google.com]

@Observer-Effect Well sorry to have triggered any of that to resurface.

@MarkWD I trigger easily about homeopathic crap, I watched a family member nearly die because of it. And I'm a serious physics geek, particle interactions are my passion - - - and, believers in "water having memory" are fucking idiots. Period. Ooops, see - I just got triggered again! 🙂

@Observer-Effect I wonder how many of the people who are drawn to homeopathy are also anti-vaxers? It would ironic if there is even one.

@MarkWD Ha! Yes, quite true!

"No. It is not."
Really? I think I've laid out a path (see above) that, to be honest, tracks with my own personal experience--namely, that it is possible to outwardly profess to be a Christian, while at the same time internally harboring extreme doubts, if not a total rejection of the faith.

@p-nullifidian "Outwardly profess"? While perhaps actually totally rejecting? 🙂 That sounds like a complicated way of saying "pretend"! And I'm not being slightly judgemental, I did sound and traveled Europe with an Evangelical performance troupe -- while knowing the superstition was rationally silly, historically wrong, and morally bankrupt. But my life was better if I just played along, it was fun and I have no regrets. But its nice to be in a position now to be able to call BS where it exists!

@Observer-Effect Outward profession (i.e., publicly witnessed behavior) can include, but is not limited to, bowing one's head during prayer and keeping one's eyes closed, attending church, genuflecting, receiving communion, repeating a creed, saying the Lord's Prayer, leading one's family in prayer when asked, etc. Not all that complicated, really. Deviate from the accepted norm, and one becomes a potential target.

@p-nullifidian ? A lot of words for "posing" or "pretending". If your appearance/actions are based on what others expect but not your personal belief, its pretending.

@Observer-Effect Of course it's pretending. Such behavior is at the heart of many social interactions. Pretending to enjoy the company of certain individuals, pretending to like the food your hosts have just served you, and answering 'no' to that most important of all questions, 'Does this dress make me look fat?'

We are creatures of great pretense, and yet, for me there remained times of weakness during this transitional phase, when I wished it were not so. I found myself in a quandary, much like Julian Barnes: I no longer believed in God, but I missed him.

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