The antivaxers among us are adamant and unrelenting. I'll give them that. But the fact remains that many of us would be dead or severely disabled without vaccines against polio, diptheria, tetanus, measles, SARS, etc. That goes for antibiotics too.
I would probably be dead or only have one leg if it were not for the antibiotic I took for a wicked bad staph infection when I was 12. My foot swelled up like a football, and red streaks were running up my leg. It was either kill the infection, or amputate, or die.
Without antibiotics, I would probably be dead or still sick from the giardia (an intestinal parasite) I picked up when I was 44.
The parents of a young colleague of my mom's were antivaxers, and refused the COVID-19 vaccine. They both died of COVID.
The brother and sister-in-law of a close friend of mine are antivaxers, and at the moment they are deathly sick with COVID-19. (He's a Gulf War vet with lung damage from burn pits, and may not survive). They skated for a good while, but it finally caught up with them. And now they may pay with their lives.
Meanwhile, almost everyone else I know has gotten the mRNA shots and boosters, without any side effects other than minor, transitory, cold-like symptoms. And, importantly, NO severe COVID-19!
In the USA, around 230 million people have gotten the jab and have remained healthy. The anti-vax propagandists spread a lot of falsehoods about people being harmed by the vaccines, but the facts do not support their BS. The vaccines protect people. Our economy is booming. 
23
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
13 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Since there are 'all kinds' here; I created a post that some may find useful in another group on this site: [agnostic.com] - it basically provides a couple of links to media sources and the analysis of those sources reliability or political leanings. I don't care about your disagreements. to each his or her own - I do care about factual information and what source people are basing their arguments on. In this day and age, it's hard to separate real from fantasy with all the available sources of information.
Lufahyu
Level 3
Feb 4, 2023
1
I don’t consider myself an “antivaxer” but I’ve never had a flu shot in my life. I don’t plan on starting now. I don’t say for others not to get vaccinated. I say, if you feel you need this vaccine then by all means get vaccinated.
I am suspicious and cautious about unnecessary medications. My father died from Covid but he was 86, diabetic and already had one foot in the grave. A work colleague in his early 50’s, overweight, poor diet, sedentary lifestyle on meds for BP and cholesterol and with questionable personal hygiene got Covid and barely made it. He now relies on oxygen.
I do not know of, first hand, any otherwise healthy adult who contracted Covid and died. The only deaths that I know of from personal first hand experience were those with underlying conditions.
My daughter is vaccinated, my son is not. Both are in college and have been sick and tested positive for Covid. Neither died from it.
I think it’s a crap shoot. If I knew I were not in good health then I’d most likely get the vaccine. I have experience with food safety and have taught classes in personal hygiene, ATP testing, cross contamination, etc. Conducting regular audits opens your eyes to the spread of germs. Masks are like gloves, if used properly they are hugely beneficial. But if used incorrectly they are not only rendered useless they become detrimental.
When the healthcare worker puts on a mask and wears gloves it’s comforting. But that comfort fades slightly when you see their bracelet dangling down onto their glove covered wrist while wearing a light jacket covered in pet hair. If you realize that they touch a pen and clipboard, doorknob and keyboard that are not kept clean also while they push their bracket back up their wrist then you know they can’t help but spread germs. The key is not to panic.
There is a great deal of fear regarding this topic. Name calling, mandates and propaganda from from both sides of the argument are not helpful. We should be cautious around the elderly, the immunocompromised and those who are genuinely fearful of getting sick.
TXLerins
Level 5
Feb 2, 2023
2
The one personal friend I had who died from COVID contracted the virus early in the pandemic, before there were vaccines. He was 45 years old, with no underlying health issues. He worked in the billing department of a hospital, might have been exposed to the virus there. Or maybe elsewhere. We'll never know. Anyway, he was a healthy, youngish adult before he got COVID-19. When it comes to our immune systems, we are not all created equal. Some people have natural immunity to certain pathogens that knock others flat. It sounds like you might have a natural immunity to SARS CoV-2. But then again, that might be an illusion. An unvaccinated acquaintance of mine went the last 3 years mostly maskless and never got covid -- until a few weeks ago. He was pretty sick but has now recovered.
I have my doubts about the efficacy, not the safety of mRNA vaccine. It certainly isn't 95% like Pfizer or 94% like Moderna both sold it when they received EUA. They are still Big Pharma after all. Don't think overnight they turned into the good guys. I had all 5 shots and still recently got very sick from Covid. I took Pfizer's Paxlovid, which cost US government $500, which I gladly didn't pay and Pfizer gladly pocketed. I thankfully haven't had rebound that has been talked about and I feel much better, testing negative on 4th day of the 5 day regimen. I'm convinced masking is more effective in preventing spread of the virus than the vaccine. Much.
barjoe
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
2
Glad you are feeling better! I agree we should scrutinize big pharma very closely. Trust provisionally, and verify.
PS: Who knows how much sicker you might have been had you not been vaccinated? We might not be having this conversation. Again, I'm glad we are. 
@Flyingsaucesir I'll say this. My trust in the effectiveness of the vaccine, had me not wear my mask as diligently. I doubt if I would've gotten Covid at all this last time, if I had continued to always wear masks indoors. I had Covid 3/2020, before vax, and my symptoms and severity were similar. I wish I had Paxlovid back then because it took me 2 weeks to feel better. I'm sold on the safety of the vaccines, I'm not convinced regarding efficacy.
@barjoe We are probably always going to he playing catch-up with this bug, because it mutates so effectively. So efficacy is never going to be 100%. Still, I think it's waaaaay better than no vaccine.
PS: I have heard good things about Paxlovid. But the vaccine may have also contributed to the decreased duration of the disease for you this time around.
@Flyingsaucesir You have more confidence than I do. I have expressed this on Twitter and had numerous mentions and hateful comments accusing me of being Qanon antivaxxer because the vax is NOWHERE near the 95% is was sold as and I had the pure unmitigated gaul to point out that FACT.
@barjoe I think the efficacy varies from person to person. And I don't remember it ever being touted as 95% effective at preventing disease. I yhink they might have been talking about preventing death.
@Flyingsaucesir Would that mean 5% died? They claimed 95% efficacy and they did so for Emergency Use Authorization. Oxford Astra Zeneca, who posted more honest reports were never granted EUA in USA but have shown to be more efficacious used in Canada and Europe this is from 11/18/2020
.[pfizer.com]
@barjoe Interesting 
Essentially, the antivaxers are no different from anyone who has invested time in any belief or belief system.
ASTRALMAX
Level 8
Feb 2, 2023
2
That's right, it's basically a religion for them.
No, that is what you are pushing a religious unwavering belief that you are right when the facts prove that you are so far gone mentally you would call anyone who is not in lockstep with your bogus censorship!!!
@of-the-mountain Censorship? What censorship? If anti-vax propaganda were censored, we wouldn't be having this conversation. In fact, what you call censorship is being on the losing end of a free and open debate. Essentially, you're not only full of shit, you're also a sore loser, a pathetic crybaby. Come on, stand up so I can knock your dick in the dirt again.
@Flyingsaucesir So @of-the-mountain has a dick? Well, you could have fooled me!
He certainly has no brains.
@Flyingsaucesir
Where do you actually reside up your ass!!!
You actually want us to believe you are some kind human male instead of a imbecilic rat lab whose life span is shortened by their lack of any intelligent human thoughts!!!
Simply we will be dancing on your grave and most likely your family that you have infected with this so called unvetted and unverified Vaccine with no discernible evidence of any real protection!!!
Just waiting for more of your illiterate delusional rants!!!
Come on dickless is that all you got for brains!!!
@of-the-mountain Your surrender is accepted 
@of-the-mountain How does one infect their family with a vaccine that doesn’t spread between people? You don’t seem very astute. Until now you weren’t on my radar of easily blockable posters but that could change quickly.
“You can take a horse to you just can not make them drink”
Being fully developmentally challenged as you are you would assume you won something, when you fully lack the abilities to comprehend!!!
, @Scott321
Your knowledge is so astounding that you lack any comprehension of what these so called covid vaccines actually do to the human DNA by there cleavage of the mRNA upon the proteins!!!
Block, I will definitely block you as another mentally challenged and ignorant idiot!!!
Just another obstructionist regressive fascist!!!
Ciao baby!!!
@Flyingsaucesir
Oh dear I must have upset @of-the-mountain because I think it blocked me. I feel so…censored…🥲
One less bozo in my feed.
@Scott321 To the best of my knowledge there are very few things that affect our DNA. Oxidative stress and Ultraviolet and other types of radiation can damage DNA in the form of DNA strand breaks. If there is any evidence that vaccines alter DNA, I would sure like to read the published peer reviewed scientific article.
@Scott321 Well he had to block you. A, it's his nature to shy away from a fair fight. B, if he's exposed to too much logic and reason his head will explode.
@ASTRALMAX
I didn’t bring that topic up in this thread but since you asked…COVID vaxxes don’t directly alter DNA in the sense of reverse transcription followed by integration, but exposure to any antigen by either pathogen or vaccine could lead to a process known as affinity maturation which involves mutation and selection in variable regions of antibody genes and improves the matching between antibodies and the antigens they target.
This recent article alludes to this somatic hypermutation based affinity maturation process: [nature.com]
“The bivalent vaccines work in several ways. Like other COVID-19 booster shots, they stimulate the memory B cells already established by previous vaccines; some of this cellular response leads to antibodies that can recognize Omicron. Their potency can strengthen over time, too: when presented with Omicron’s spike, memory B cells go through an evolutionary ‘training’ process of mutation and selection, producing a pool of B cells that encode antibodies that bind more tightly to Omicron’s spike.”
A feature not a bug of adaptive immunity in B lymphocytes. It only happens in those cells and doesn’t get inherited by offspring. It’s a strategy for slowly reproducing organisms like humans to fight the arms race against more rapidly evolving microbes with far shorter generation times!
There is nothing fair or equal about your propaganda rants which have a basis in criminality and fraudulent use by those bought and sold by the corporations and the government who blindly follow what ever is spewed to them!!!
I would have block you but you do not treat dumb animals such as yourself in the same matter!!!
There is still hope that you will just fuck off and die like a man, no one is holding their breath for you!!!
Simply using your demented logic Fuck off!!
@of-the-mountain Sounds like I touched a nerve
@Flyingsaucesir
No just fucking with a real live Moronic stooge!!!
Aside from all the bullshit here; and the manipulation of statistics to serve anyones particular agenda - I go by the eye test - reality. I got vaxxed as soon as it was available to me; I then proceeded to travel the country by car - interacting with tons of people, and still do to this day, after 3 boosters in. I am overweight, and have had heart valve replacement - so high risk - and I am just fine, thank you.
The eye test; I haven't had as much as a sneezer these past 2 years, the jabs made my arm sore for one day each and one booster gave me the chills for about 18 hours. The vaccine works, and mRNA has been in development for the past 30 years, it's nothing new cooked up overnight like so many conspiracy theorists want it to be.
The flip side; my uber healthy sister-in-law was an anti-vaxxer, that is "was" - she is dead now, after contracting Covid, she lasted 10 days, intubated on day 2. She had no, nada, none underlying health issues, 5 mile a day runner, vegetarian - picture of health - 42 years old. Likewise, I've been around several Covid infected people, with no mask (I found out afterwards), and never got the bug - so don't tell me a hi-risk person who took the vaccine, was exposed to transmission several times and never got the bug was because of some stupid divine intervention - the vaccines works, period, end of line.
And then there are the typhoid Mary ones; those who aren't vaccinated and got the bug but didn't get sick - the carriers. Feeling all proud and glorius that 'hey, it's just the flu - look at me' - go screw yerself, cause your ignorance may well pass it on to another anti-vaxxer and kill them - good job there.
Bottom line; people who want to ignore science that saves, invent and spread curated conspiracies based on manipulated data and horse apples - good for you, win the Darwin award, I'm all for thinning the herd.
Lufahyu
Level 3
Feb 2, 2023
1
Thank you for sharing the results of your "eye test." Your vision is 20-20, btw.
@Flyingsaucesir Why thank ya - guess I was a bit pissed reading through all the comments here and had to let it out. I'm so tired of this BS; lived with a couple of roomies a year ago, we were all on the same page - one was always traveling for family, another a painter that was always in the field and myself - a part time working musician. The traveler got Covid in NY - and he voluntarily quarantined himself, wore a mask in the common areas and disinfected everything he touched. That is being responsible, not everyone is an idiot and that is something to be grateful for.
A lot of the garbage stats conspiracy theorists rely upon comes from the VAERS database, in which the results are easily manipulated - but many often miss the disclaimer on that site - Inconclusive, subjective and unverified data exists in VAERS because anyone and their three toed parrot can put data into it.
@Lufahyu Yeah it's easy to find misinformation, but that's no excuse for spreading it further, for arguing vigorously in support if it, for pushing a bunch if shit on the world. Is it too much to ask that people fact check their information? To be open to better analysis? But that isn't really the way to look at it. I think many of the trolls who are spreading lies know they are spreading lies. Their aim is to sow discord, to foment chaos, to bring down society, to discredit democratic governments, and/or to contribute to the destruction of civilization. In other words, these are very nihilistic bastards we are dealing with.
At least their insanity will mean fewer of them. I have told people when were kids and got sick my dad would go to the local drug store and buy a vial of penicillin. He would boil a syringe and give us a shot. When anti-biotics came out people often took them until whatever ailed them went away. We learned the hard way just because we're feeling better doesn't mean the bugs have been killed. New we are told to take the full dose of anti-biotics. This also applies to viruses. If we don't take all the doses or none at all it will evolve as it is doing now. One doesn't have to be a genius to figure that out but it would help if one had a modicum of intelligence.
jackjr
Level 7
Feb 2, 2023
2
Yet the dangerous dumbfucks among us, such as @BDair, continue to peddle their evil lies.
@anglophone The poor dumb shits don't understand science. Biological evolution is beyond their ken.
Poor morons like you just shorten your own life and others who fall for the pharmaceutical lies and overt propaganda via your prostrated viewpoints!!!
@of-the-mountain Two years of COVID-free health since my first vaccination. When exactly am I supposed to fall apart? What? You don't know? Well know this, asshole: your doomsaying, defeatist, paranoiac ramblings are like so much gas bubbling up from a fetid swamp. It stinks, but it's transparent. We see right through it.
@Flyingsaucesir The numbskull that is @of-the-mountain blocked me long ago when I pointed out to him the absurdity of his claims.
Typical fuck up that will argue when the facts you spout are proven to be fraudulent and will contribute to many deaths!!!
In this case hopefully yours!
Just another stooge awaiting there reward for being so blind and stupid!!!
Poor delusional demented dullard that just Will not admit that they were used like lab rats, that are expendable!!!
@anglophone You're not missing much. Count yourself lucky.
@of-the-mountain Blah, blah, blah,...Come back when you have some real facts, junior.
@Flyingsaucesir
You sure like to suck mentally and physically!!!
Fact you are so warped that even your mental agility has to be lauded as insufficiently insufferable!!!
When you actually grow a pair and be a real human instead of a disposable lab rat, then you might survive a bit longer than allowed!!!
For what it's worth; antibiotics have no effect on viruses, only bacterial infections. They do help prevent a virus from causing a bacterial infection though, which oftentimes happens when a virus compromises the immune system. So taking antibiotics for a viral infection is more like applying a condom to avoid a bacterial infection. I posted this because many seem to get the two types of infections confused and often conflated. Vaccines are the only solution to prevent or reduces the effects of a viral infection.
Anti-vaxxers, and that includes @BDair, are arrogant, emotionally deformed, and extremely dangerous. They need to be treated as such.
anglophone
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
3
The 'vaccines' do not now, and have never
prevented infection or transmission of a virus.
How does my not getting it endanger anyone else?
@BDair Again, no one (in the CDC or NIH) ever said the vaccines prevent infection. They don't. What the vaccines do is they prevent severe illness and death. You can keep setting up that straw man all you want. We are just going to continue burning it down.
My question to you is this. You say you love your country. Then why did you decide to go to work for Vladimir Putin?
@Flyingsaucesir I cannot be bothered with engaging with @BDair. He refuses to engage with anybody except on his own selfish terms.
@anglophone Tru dat, And totally understandable. But I kind of enjoy kicking his ass all over the playground. It sharpens my beak and claws.
@anglophone I don’t have many on my block list but BDair is definitely on it! Don’t miss that nonsense at all.
@Flyingsaucesir You sir are a liar.
"Again, no one (in the CDC or NIH) ever said the vaccines prevent infection."
The CDC said exactly that.
"A new CDC study provides strong evidence that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective in 'preventing' SARS-CoV-2 infections in real-world conditions..... "
"The study looked at the effectiveness of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines in 'preventing' SARS-CoV-2 infections among 3,950 study participants in six states over a 13-week period from December 14, 2020 to March 13, 2021."
"In other words, two shots of Pfizer or Moderna's vaccines, followed by two full weeks for them to take effect, nearly zeroed out all detectable infections — including asymptomatic ones."
"The CDC concluded, based on those results, that Pfizer and Moderna's COVID-19 vaccines are roughly 90% effective at 'preventing' COVID-19 infections in the real world, even the asymptomatic kind."
Fauci said the jabs 'prevent' transmission.
'Fauci added that vaccinated people essentially become “dead ends” for the virus to spread within their communities.
“When you get vaccinated, you not only protect your own health and that of the family but also you contribute to the community health by preventing the spread of the virus throughout the community,” Fauci said. “In other words, you become a dead end to the virus. And when there are a lot of dead ends around, the virus is not going to go anywhere. And that’s when you get a point that you have a markedly diminished rate of infection in the community.”
@BDair OK, I should have said the CDC never said the vaccine is 100% effective at preventing infection. It's 90% effective. Or it was. That was true for the variants that existed at that time. And as new variants have emerged, the effectiveness of the vaccine has changed. And new vaccines have been developed in the attempt to keep pace with the viral mutations. And the CDC reported on this, and continues to report on these changes and developments as they take place. This is how science works. Things are constantly changing and new information is constantly coming in. And the CDC and NIH were on TV and updating their web sites almost every day with what new information they had learned about this novel coronavirus. In fact, they have done a splendid job of keeping us informed during this public health emergency.
You really ought to get your facts straight before you start throwing around accusations. You could eliminate the crow from your diet.
I've said it a thousand times. People today get paid for views, clicks, and likes online. They attract a crowd and start selling T-shirts or something. They gather some followers and people believe them because if it was not true there would be no followers. Seems logical enough. Then the horror stories start pouring in and the gullible believe all of it. I'm saying that your source does not come from any credited media.
After all, if Trump can get lots of money by claiming the election was stolen from him then other opinions on anything can suddenly become true.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
1
I ran into another one today. He had all these stories of kids getting heart attacks or becoming epileptic. I haven't heard any of that, so I'm assuming he's plugged into Fox or other disinformation channels. He became very vocal and emphatic, even though I wasn't arguing or disputing anything. Still, I judged his information to be false, and his tone meant trying to discuss it would be useless. It's scary to find people who seem sane and then go off a cliff. Ugh...
racocn8
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
3
I think a lot of this nonsense is a manifestation of a desire for chaos, a wish, on the part of authoritarian regimes and neo Nazis everywhere to delegitimise democratic, egalitarian governments world wide. That membership in the anti-vax camp can be largely predicted by political party affiliation speaks volumes. Today's Republicans are also adherents of the Q-Anon and election rigging conspiracy theories. They don't trust the courts, don't trust doctors, don't trust teachers, don't trust pharmaseutical or tech companies, don't trust regulatory agencies, don't trust college professors or any form of intellectualism. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep our eyes on them. We should watch them like a hawk! But the MAGAts want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's not in our collective best interest.
@Flyingsaucesir I maintain that a great deal of this disinformation and conspiracy-mongering comes from Putin. Putin and his GRU concerted psychological operation work to sow conflict and balkanization of the West. It is divide and conquer on global level. Why Murdoch is all in on this remains unknown to me. That the US intelligence agencies give so little acknowledgement to this program makes me worry that they are significantly in on it also. To be sure, Putin has his hooks into much of the GQP.
@racocn8 Yes, I think Putin is behind a lot of the disinformation. He has been at war with us for longer than many of us realize.
@racocn8 I have seen this asshole driving around San Diego a number of times. Notice the Russian flag mounted behind the driver.
When you compare Covid SARS vaccines to other viral vaccines you need to do more research!!!
You are just parroting what the governments and pharmaceutical corporations which are touting benefits while pushing censorship of too many other knowledgeable scientists, doctors, and researchers, who have not stood in line to approve this so called vaccine!!!
When these pharmaceutical corporations basically stole taxpayer supported research, then in turn over charged us, hence made $$$Billions in profit at our expense with complete immunity to the deadly side effects of their unproven vaccine whose trials did not last more than two months before being injected into the public with no know actually effects upon the virus except to mutate in our bodies infecting others around us wholesale!
With only 6.78 Million deaths world wide attributed to Covid-19 it was not a pandemic it was an orchestrated epidemic!!!
of-the-mountain
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
2
Blah, blah, blah. What a bunch of bullshit.
Why would you know anything, your just another moronic idiot used to follow and eating the shit you are feed!!!
Another fascist wanting to kill off and dominate the rest of us!!!
Too bad you are so stupid that you are one of the first ones they will sweep away like the rest of your kind lead to slaughter!!!
@of-the-mountain Your fulminations are full of sound and fury, but they signify nothing beyond your own paranoia. In other words, blah, blah, blah.
@Flyingsaucesi
Facts do not lie!!!
You so called mongers are all the same claim victimhood, while kicking and screaming overtly that everyone else is extremely wrong and full of ordure but you!!
Those like yourself always have trots of the brain and oral orifice’s with no other way of casting out your stench!!!
When obtuseness and vacuousness are used as your only defense the rest of us morn you audacity!!!
I have not come across anyone who has had the jab and had an adverse effect, not one.
Jolanta
Level 9
Feb 2, 2023
6
You have not left your house in two years.
I had a low fever for about a day after my second shot. I had a higher fever after my first booster, but it was not life-threatening. I had no discernable reaction from my second booster.
More than 10,000 Australians have filed coronavirus vaccine injury claims -
[smh.com.au]
@BDair Wow, they have a lot of fraudsters in Australia! We have our share here too. Take a look in the mirror.
My neice had an anaphalactic reaction (ambulance hospital and more than one epi pen injection, I think 5 were given in the ambulance) after her vaccination.
No one in our family is anti vax just that she needs to use a different type of vaccine to the one she had.
They can not work out why she reacted to badly to it. She is fully vaccinated for everything else and has never had a reaction to any of those.
@Budgie The COVID-19 vaccines are known to cause anaphylaxis in rare cases. That's why they make us sit in a waiting room for 20 minutes after getting the shot. It's a bummer that a small minority of people have a bad reaction. But we're still way better off having the vaccines than not having them. I'm glad your niece survived her ordeal.
BDair
Level 8
Feb 2, 2023
0
Your opinion is noted. Come back when you have some facts.
@Flyingsaucesir Actually,,,,come back next year sometime.
“A Critique Of Scientific Literature: Pesticides and Polio,” this article by Jim West
[zedie.wordpress.com]
Enjoy being online again!
Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.Create your free account
Share this post
Categories
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.