That you would go with the convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, inveterate fraudster, Putin puppet, and neo-Nazi says a lot about you. I'm glad there is very little chance we will ever meet in person.

A change of candidate only works if it's instigated by Biden himself. Everything else you said is spot on.

I just watched Idiocracy again the other night. Camacho is pretty much Trump’s fantasy of who he thinks he is and what he would like his government to look like. And honestly, much of the MAGA cult would fit right in to the movie casting!

The two-party system is a bad joke. We should have instant-runoff (aka rank-choice) elections. That would open them up to 3rd and 4th parties.

@Barnie2years yeah we have Camacho Trump and poopy pants Biden...lmao. libertarians like spike make sense and speak non circuss talk about real issues and ways to get government out of our lives and our pocketbooks. I mean....why would any sane person want that...everybody loves being spied on , paying huge taxes, and giving away billions to foreign affairs which is why your food and other goods have doubled. But hey...if we vote maga or poopy pants...we get to blame the opposite side for all the problems...lmao

Rand Paul is a despicable jerk-off. But he's found himself a niche, got himself a nice, cushy sinecure playing the outraged Libertarian in the Senate. What a waste of oxygen. His daddy Ron was not much better. Neither of them has ever made a useful contribution.

Handing the nuclear codes to a neo Nazi, malignant narcissist, incompetent boob, and convicted felon is bound to be interesting. Let's see... based on past performance, the rich get a lot richer, health insurance gets stripped away from millions, our infrastructure crumbles, our allies will be alienated, Ukraine gets gobbled up by Vlad the Invader, Iran gets the bomb,...

I can hardly wait.

Here is a question. Do you really believe that pregnancies have been terminated 2 days after birth as Trump espoused?
Follow-up question. Do you believe that Trump believes it?
If the answer is "no" to either or both of these questions. Then you cannot vote for Trump with any clear conscience. For to do so is to deprive half the population of America of their bodily rights on a lie.
Now you can use all the sophistry you want. "It doesn't affect me directly", "Everyone lies" or "It is politically expedient to beat Biden". But the truth is that you are willing to sell your fellow Americans' rights over to religious bullshitters to support someone that you believe to be a liar.

@273kelvin Trump was stretching it on that one but some blue states do allow very late term abortion of live babies.

@273kelvin, @Flyingsaucesir He had the nuclear codes for 4 years and there was no problems. In fact there was considerably less turmoil in the world under Trump than under Biden.

@Trajan61 Stretching?!! It was a bald lie, one among many others.

Do you believe Trump when he lies that he was only "invited" to speak at the Ellipse? (He orchestrated the whole thing.) Or that he offered 10,000 National Guard troops to Nancy Pelosi? And that she refused?

Do you believe Trump's lie that he "never slept with a porn star? Or that David Pecker was lying when he testified under oath about the catch and kill scheme? Or that Trump's indictment by a grand jury, and his conviction by a trial jury is all just a "witch hunt"?

Or that Trump didn't steal classified documents, store them in a haphazard manner, show them to people who had no business seeing them, and lie about all of it, and get others to lie about for him?

If your answer is "no" to any of these questions, then you cannot in good conscience vote for Trump. He is attacking the central pillars of our democracy: our electoral system, our judicial system, and our intelligence and national security.

@Flyingsaucesir What about Biden’s lies about being endorsed by the Border patrol union and no Americans being killed on his watch? Only and idiot would continue to support a man who is showing clear signs of dementia and who’s agenda has caused many problems for this country and the world.

@Trajan61 No, there is a difference between "stretching it a bit" and outright lies. Eg. "Stretching" is putting fake orange tan on your face and going full-on minstrel blackface is a downright obvious lie.
Roe vs Wade had this area already covered. It allowed a termination only if the fetus would be unsustainable outside the womb or the life of the mother was seriously threatened by continuing to term. If you look into those late-term abortions, you will find that in all of them, the kid was dead already, so deformed that it might as well be or there were serious complications involving the mother's life. Either way that would be a decision between the mother and her doctor. NOT some lying bible-thumping politician that Trump has empowered by perpetuating a downright lie.
Imagine if he had lied so badly about guns and they were taking yours away on the strength of that lie?
So, you know it's a lie, I know it's a lie and HE knows it's a lie. This begs the question "What else is a lie?". If Trump is willing to lie about this how can you take anything he says at face value?
I am not asking you to vote for Biden. What I am asking you to do is not to vote for Trump.

@Trajan61 @273kelvin 16 serviceman deaths is not good, but it's also not anywhere near the kind of number we typically see in a foreign war, e.g. 55,000+ in Vietnam, 2400+ in Afghanistan, or 4400+ in Iraq. (If I have erred in any of these numbers by hundreds or thousands of deaths, are you going to call that a lie?)

In fact, 16 deaths is the kind of number we can expect to see in any year of military training exercises. Not saying they don't matter, but its practically nil. The point is that Biden got us out of Afghanistan and has not gotten us into any other war. And most military experts agree that he's keeping us out of a future conflict with Russia by supplying Ukraine with the wherewithall to defend herself.

As for the border patrol, they did endorse Biden's plan, which is not exactly the same thing as endorsing the man himself but close enough.

To call either of these misstatements a lie you have to get out a microscope and split some very fine hairs. It's not at all akin to the kind of prevarication Trump engages in evey day of his useless life.

Hell, in this debate Trump actually took credit for accomplishments of others (i.e. deploying National Guard troops in Minneapolis, dismantling protest zone in Seattle, and capping insulin prices).

He also made up entire stories out of whole cloth (i.e. that he offered 10,000 National Guard troops to Nancy Pelosi; that Roe v Wade provides for infanticide; that the 2020 election was stolen; that Latin American countries are sending their criminals and terrorists to the US). It's outrageous!

And let's not forget that his Big Lie, the one he has told every day since November 5, 2020, is a dagger aimed at the very heart of our democracy. It's not a rounding error, it's a fascist punch to Lady Liberty's gut.

And all his damned lies about prosecutors, judges, witnesses, and jurors? Those people are good citizens doing their civic duty. They don't deserve to be targeted by a stochastic terrorist in a blue suit. Trump is trying to scare people into silence. It's a cheap mafia tactic, and a dirty bomb, intended to blow up our judicial system.

Trump demonstrates every day that he has no respect for American values or American institutions. In fact, he is, quite literally, a fascist pig. If you love your country, you cannot vote for this evil man.

@273kelvin What about Biden lies? He is a chronic liar and has alway been one. Yes I will vote for and support Trump as he’s a far better choice than that crooked senile idiot Biden or anything the Democrats have available!

@Trajan61 Thirty-five thousand lies in his four-year term, Yes that's 35,000. Are you seriously equating the two? And to what ends? If Biden has padded the truth a little, what was his agenda? Fair wages, improved infrastructure, reduced inflation, cheaper prescription meds and climate change reduction.
What did Trump lie for? Inflating his inauguration rally crowd, fudging his Russian help in winning the election, quid-pro-quo Ukraine, shagging a porn star and paying her off, COVID, losing the election, organising a coup, hoarding classified documents, his taxes, taking bodily rights off half the US population, the list is far too long for me to type but they are all for his personal gain.

I almost put Liz Cheney's name on the list. I think your analysis is correct, but I don't know how realistic is the possibility of her running as a Dem. But it sure would be interesting!

Time flies when you're having fun

Your previous leader was a young lesbian. New Zealand is way more progressive than the USA on most every level of life.

@Barnie2years I didn’t know that having fiscally conservative government, secure borders, strong immigration policies and a publicly stated sense of national sovereignty were necessarily progressive. These are policies that the majority of New Zealanders agree on and support.

How did you know that our previous leader was a lesbian? I didn’t see anything about her sexuality being reported. I judged her on her political performance anyway, like most kiwis.

@Barnie2years, @Flyingsaucesir Luckily, leaders are replaced quite frequently. I wouldn’t like to see Chris in charge for the next twenty five years!

@Zealandia I think he meant that NZ is more progressive on social issues like gay rights. (I didn't know your previous PM was gay either.)

@Flyingsaucesir

Thanks for the comment and clarification.

I’m not sure if previous PM was gay, as she’s married! His name (ironically) is Clarke Gayford. Was a presenter of the fishing documentary show Fish of the Day.

I didn’t know until recently that she is an ex Mormon, which surprised me.

And yes, NZ is more progressive on social issues. But it’s interesting how conservative the country is in other areas by comparison.

For example, fiscal policy. Public debt in New Zealand averaged 32.2% of GDP in the decade to 2022, below the Asia-Pacific average of 86.8% of GDP. In 2022, public debt was 32.7% of GDP. Intention is to have the figure in the twenties by the end of the decade.

@Zealandia The USA is afflicted with a particularly nasty form of religious fundamentalism. It's called Evangelical Christianity, and it attacks the critical thinking regions of the brain.

@Flyingsaucesir Agree. Yeah, we’re really fortunate that there’s a clear separation between church and state here.

Evangelical Christianity is in the political wilderness here and I sincerely hope that it remains that way. I think the party promoting this type of fundamentalist ideology only got about 1.5% of votes in the last elections. You need at least 5% to score a seat.

@Zealandia Inoculation with heavy doses of science over many years can provide protection from the disease, but there is this stubborn resistance to "book learnin'."

@Zealandia Our presidents only are allowed two terms thankfully. Though Trump, if he got in again, would be looking at eliminating that.

@Zealandia Your previous leader was well covered over here in puritan land.

@Zealandia Sorry, she appointed a gay man as deputy PM and was supportive of LGBT+ causes. I thought .I had seen she was gay somewhere. I did see her on the Stephen Colbert show several times. My bad.

@Barnie2years Thanks, I didn’t know that about the Deputy PM under the previous administration. I was overseas for many years and came in about half way through their term during the pandemic. He’s retired from politics now and is vice chancellor of a university.

It took everyone by surprise when the previous PM resigned and was replaced. I think it took a lot of courage for her to do that.

She stated that her rejection of Mormonism was because of the church’s attitude towards LGBT+ people.

@Zealandia She seemed like the kind of person that would be great fun to sit down with for wings and beer with some good conversation. You don’t see many politicians you can say that about.

Please believe me when I say I feel your pain.
This country could be greatly improved with just a few simple changes.

1. Outlaw gerrymandering everywhere.
2. Do away with the electoral college.
3. Expand the Supreme Court and institute term limits and a binding ethics code.
4. Expand the House of Representatives.
5. Recognize the authority of the International Criminal Court. Let any American president who violates international law be accountable.
6. Do away with the two-party system. Hold instant runoff (aka rank choice) elections

Once these things are done, we should be able to get our house in order.

One more item for the list: do away with the two party system. Have rank-choice (aka instant-runoff) elections.

I will only differ with you on one small point: should Biden stay in the race, I don't see a Trump victory as a fait accompli. Biden could still prevail (though after this debate, his chances are somewhat diminished).

Thank for your thoughtful and well-reasoned response!

Really? What lie did Joe tell?

@Flyingsaucesir CNN did a story where they covered at least 9 lies he told during the debate. or did you not watch?

@Flyingsaucesir lied about immigration lied about unemployment rate when he took office lied about soldiers not being killed during his presidency etc. You can look up their piece if need be.

@Tejas I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Just say what it was he said that was a lie. Put up or shut up!

CNN is not here, not a member, not commenting on the post. You are.

@Flyingsaucesir I did. I told you a few. Now it's your job to defend his lies or shutup.

@Tejas No, you didn't. You just blurted out some vague generalities. You need to provide a quote (with actual quotation marks), and the source. That's how this works.

@Tejas Saying "he lied about" is not enough to refute the statement. What exactly was the lie? For example, here is a list of Trump's false claims (or lies): 1. ...some Democratic-led states allow babies to be executed after birth, 2, ...every legal scholar and everybody in general wanted Roe v. Wade overturned, 3. ...there were no terror attacks during his presidency, . 4....Iran didn’t fund terror groups during his presidency, 5. ,....the US has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has, 6. ...Biden for years referred to Black people as “super predators,” . 7....Biden is planning to quadruple people’s taxes, 8...Nancy Pelosi turned down 10,000 National Guard troops for the US Capitol on January 6, 2021, 9....Americans don’t pay the cost of his tariffs on China and other countries, . 10..Europe accepts no American cars, 11. ...he is the president who got the Veterans Choice program through Congress, 12. ... fraud marred the results of the 2020 election. (There are 30, too many to list ) . Biden lied about the cost of insulin : “It’s $15 for an insulin shot, as opposed to $400.”: (No the cap was put at $35 not $15) Biden said "Trump told people to inject bleach..." (No, Trump asked if it was possible to inject disinfectant into the lungs, not bleach. ) Biden said no troops died under his administration, but 16 have been killed. There were 63 during Trump's term......

@Flyingsaucesir

@Flyingsaucesir here since you're too lazy

@Tejas Excellent! Well done!

Now, there are a few facts that, I think, mitigate some of Biden's false statements. First, he misstated the lower price of insulin he secured for millions of Americans by TWENTY dollars. We all know he was not having a great night. It's the kind of mistake anyone might make in a high-pressure moment.

Likewise the comment about the maximum annual Medicare cost of prescription drugs; he dropped a decimal point, said 200 instead of 2000. Again, a very common type of mistake.

Second, illegal migration IS down 40% lately. The CNN guy is just wrong on that one. (Notice how he equivocates here; he doesn't say Biden's statement was false, he says it was "generally not true." )

The CNN guy is also wrong about the unemployment rate under Trump. It most certainly did reach as high as 15% during the pandemic. And what has it been for most of Biden's term? Closer to 3%.

Joe Biden has been in public service for over 50 years. In that time, he has seen a LOT of American military personnel come home in body bags. 55,000+ from Vietnam. 3,000+ from Iraq. 20,000+ from Afghanistan. And during his presidency, 16 service men have lost their lives on foreign soil. I'm not saying they don't matter, but in terms of pure numbers, it's practically nil. We lose more people in training exercises at home every year.

The types of misstatements made by Biden are entirely different in character from the stinking lies that flow from Trump's sewage outlet of a mouth. First, 12 jurors found him guilty of paying off a porn star to keep her quiet before an election. His statement that he "didn't sleep with a porn star" may be literally true; he may not have slept, but he most certainly cheated on his wife with Stormy Daniels.

Then there were the lies where Trump tried to take credit for achievements of others. Or simply making up stuff about Democratically run states: "They kill the baby in the 9th month, they'll kill the newborn baby." Talk about throwing red meat! It's a total fabrication! That's a lot different from dropping a decimal point. It's premeditated and malicious.

And the lies about January 6, wow! They are a whole set if whoppers. First he said he was "invited" to speak at the Ellipse rally. Ha! He called his supporters to the appointed time and place.

And all that bullshit about offering Nancy Pelosi 10,000 guardsmen, and her refusing to take them. Trump is trying to fabricate a whole narrative out of thin air. It's absurd, but he knows it works with some people. Again, malicious premeditation.

I could go on, but by now it should be sinking in: there is no comparison between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. The former is a good man, and the latter is pond scum.

@Flyingsaucesir you sound like a Christian apologist. You are the type of person who can be persuaded to look the other way or drop their morals entirely to keep "your guy winning" you're no better than a maga republican. Gross

@Tejas Really? Is that the best you can do? I've told you before, ad hominem attack is no substitute for a well-reasoned argument. It only signals that you're frustrated and out of ideas. Jeez, I have to teach you everything.

@Bobbie63 Several blue states allow the abortion of late term viable babies so what in the hell are you talking about! Iran was not nearly the problem during Trumps presidency as he wasn’t funneling them a bunch of money and they were broke. Only a raving idiot would continue to support Biden after the disaster of the last 3.5 years!

@Tejas Oh dear, please do not resort to name calling.

@Tejas, @Trajan61 I said nothing about late term abortions, nor did Trump. That is a separate argument. I only listed some of the 30 false statement made by Trump. during the debate. Trump said: . ...some Democratic-led states allow babies to be executed after birth. I did not list any lie from either Trump or Biden regarding money sent to Iran. That is yet another argument. The argument I proposed is that Trump tells many lies. Please defend by showing that Trump is honest rather than trying to divert to some other argument.

@Flyingsaucesir I wouldn't call it an attack. I just realize you can't argue with willfully ignorant, disingenuous or delusional people. You just so happen to check all those boxes. You asked for evidence of lies then make awful excuses for them. You can't say in back to back sentences that he "was only 30 dollars off big deal" then say "he was only 2000 dollars off big deal". I'd like to add unreasonable to the list above for you.

@Tejas Heh heh! There you go again! If calling someone "willfully ignorant, disingenuous, or delusional" isn't an ad hominem attack, I don't know what is.

But you did eventually address the matter at hand, so kudos for that!

If you listen to him speak Joe's always putting the decimal point in the wrong place. He usually corrects himself. This time he didn't.

But I am under no illusion that I will ever be able to convince you to paint with anything but the broadest brush.

The nuance muscle is one that requires exercise. Yours is apparently atrophied.

I stand by my assessment of these two men:

The older one is essentially good, well intentioned, and competent, though increasingly feeble due to advanced age.

The orange one is a despicable excuse for a human being, an incompetent boob, a racist, a pathological liar, a malignant narcissist, a convicted criminal, and a would-be "dictator" (his own word).

@Flyingsaucesir it's not a decimal point. It's a thousands separation marker you are referring to, I have the most basic level math education and I know that. A decimal point sits behind a number and represents fractions of a number. Didn't you learn that in elementary school? It's ironic that you say I'm attacking you when you add laughing emojis, like a passive aggressive 14 year old girl, throughout your comments. My point is you said one candidate is honest and the other is a liar and when I showed you objective truth that both are liars you make excuses for your favorite, therefore your are (willfully ignorant, disingenuous, delusional and unreasonable).

@Tejas 200.00 vs 2000.0....a shift of the decimal point, leading to a factor of ten difference. But you're right, I am laughing at you!

And yes, I absolutely favor Biden over Trump!

Biden makes investments in America. Trump gives tax breaks to the rich. Witness Biden's infrastructure bill. With Trump, "infrastructure week" became a recurring punch line. He didn't fill one pothole. Instead, he gave a huge tax break to the rich, adding 7.8 Trillion dollars to the national debt and getting nothing for it in return (except for the adulation of a bunch of billionaires).

Biden respects the rule of law. (Witness how he has not interfered in the prosecution of his own son.) Trump is a convicted felon, a fraudster, a rapist, a defamer, a money launderer for the Russian oligarchy, insurrectionist, and a violator of the Espionage Act.

Biden supports American institutions; Trump tears them down. Witness Trump's lies about the electoral system, calling the most secure election in history "rigged" just because he lost; calling his various indictments, trials, judgements, and convictions a "witch hunt" just because he's guilty and desperate to evade accountability.

Joe Biden seeks to lift people up, unlike Trump, who wants only to elevate himself. Witness Trump's repeated attempts to repeal the Affordable Care Act, with nothing to replace it.

Joe Biden is a competent administrator. He saved the economy from collapse, and was more successful in reducing inflation than the leader any other country. Trump, on the other hand, is totally incompetent. Witness Trump's mishandling of the pandemic crisis. We know from interviews he gave to Bob Woodward (interviews that were recorded; you can listen to them) that Trump had months of advance knowledge that the virus was coming, and he did absolutely nothing. His national security team warned him, tried to light a fire under him, and Trump sat on his ass and did nothing. Then, when it started to get bad, the "stable genius" contradicted the experts, and caused over 200,000 excess deaths. Way to go, Trumpty Dumpty!

I'll take the feeble old man who has the interests of the American people at heart over the convicted felon and malignant narcissist who quotes Hitler and has his nose in Putin's bung hole every week day and twice on Sunday! Yes! I absolutely and unreservedly favor Biden over Trump!

@Flyingsaucesir I don't have too much time today to argue. But much of what you said is false misleading lies and propaganda. You need to get out of the echo chamber

@Tejas Uh huh. I'll be right here whenever you get around to marshalling your "facts."

@Flyingsaucesir you are the one making claims without evidence. You are just making excuses and spewing talking points from propaganda. So I'll sit high and mighty on my facts.

@Tejas [vox.com]

@Flyingsaucesir that's not evidence of anything. My video said the same. You're going big dumb dumb today

@Tejas Whatever dude. Like I said, I'll be here any time you feel like you got your shit together.

@Flyingsaucesir Tejas: bout 350. Flyingdumbass: 0

A debilitating stroke would suffice.

@jlynn37 I dunno... They'd still vote for him if he was just debilitated, and the GOP would run him. I want him gone.

@Lauren He is already debilitated, but his worshipers cannot see it.

Only a fool would continue to support that senile crooked idiot Biden after the disastrous last 3.5 years.

@Trajan61 These idiots on the main forum are more deranged than I realized..This site should be called Biden lovers .com

@godlessguy That would be a good name for it!

@Bobbie63 do you not see the irony of calling Trump debilitated when biden is literally knocking on deaths door. I honestly don't think biden will survive another 4 years, especially with the added pressure of the presidency.

@Tejas I agree, I don't think Biden will live four years if he takes on the job again. He does the work and it is stressful. It won't bother Trump if he takes the job, as he spends his time playing golf. Trump is overweight and old, so he is not physically healthy, but more important, he is cognitively impaired. His speeches ramble and he forgot his wife's name.