It's like playing with phone scammers--if I have time, it's fun!

When I was pagan, people accused pagans of eating babies. I always told them that I gave up eating babies when I became a vegetarian. I still do not eat cows or pigs, and baby fat just has too many calories.

@Gwen_Wanderer Actually Christians who first arrived to what is laughingly referred to as the "holy land" during the first crusade were starving and after attacking the people who welcomed them murdered and robbed the adults then ate the children.... And you guessed it that city was Christian... Ironic isn't it?

@Lizard_of_Ahaz ironic and hypocritical.

@Gwen_Wanderer Not so much hypocritical since their religion centered around (and still does to this day)ritual cannibalism...

@Lizard_of_Ahaz Christians are hypocrites and speak out both sides of their mouths! They say one thing and then, do another. My last boyfriend was Xtian and saw no problem with having sex outside of marriage because he would, in his words, "Go to church and ask for forgiveness." And yet, he expected others to follow "God's laws."

@Gwen_Wanderer

@Lizard_of_Ahaz had the woman not walked away when she did, I would have asked her about Psalm 137:9 which states, "Blessed the one who seizes your children and smashes them against the rock."

Apparently, god had no problems with killing babies, but wants to save embryos. He also saw no problem in killing babies in the flood. Christians rationalize killing the babies of the enemy because the babies would grow up to be enemies, too. I have heard Xtians rationalize killing babies in the flood was fine because the babies went straight to heaven because they had committed no sins. Why didn't god just transport them to heaven without torturing them with death by drowning? And if humans are born with original sin, aren't those babies sinful by default?

@Gwen_Wanderer
This one freaks them out as well...

2 Kings 8:12-13

“You will set fire to their fortified places, kill their young men with the sword, dash their little children to the ground, and rip open their pregnant women.”

@Lizard_of_Ahaz thanks for this verse! I have missed it in my readings, but I will add it to my arsenal!

@Gwen_Wanderer Psalms also has some other verses about cutting open pregnant women and killing their fetuses as well as I recall. All in all the bible is a truly disgusting and evil book.

I have met some "characters" for sure! This woman was confused by my knowledge of the Bible and I kinda felt sorry for her. Men handle such situations differently, including yelling at me. She fought valiantly for her god, but honestly she was out of her league. When she said she knew about the two versions of creation, I asked her how she explained the discrepancy. She did not even try to answer.

@Gwen_Wanderer The confusion is a much better sign than the shouting that she may start questioning, so you've performed a public service in leading her to breaking her religious ties.

@Lauren perhaps! I won't say she was impressed about how much more I knew about the bible than she did, but it might have instilled a worm into her brain!

@Gwen_Wanderer The single largest difference between a Christian and an atheist is that more often than not an atheist has actually read the bible..

And the differences in bible, i.e. the Catholic and Protestant versions, are proof that the Bible has been influenced by translation and simply the editors. Why did the Protestants leave out Judith and the Maccabees?

Reading the Bible was the first step in me leaving Xtianity. No wonder the Catholic Church would not allow the flock to read the book for themselves for so long.

@Gwen_Wanderer Those are only a few of the versions, the Coptic church and Orthodox Church also have their own versions as well as all the multiple translations of each. There are over 450 English versions of the Christian Bible. Most Christians don't realize the oldest Christian sects are Ethiopian.

@glennlab Most Protestants don't even know that the Catholic version is different. The ironic thing about this is that even if they did know, they would say the Catholic version is "wrong" when it came first! Also, when King James had the Bible translated into English, some verses were intentionally changed, i.e. the "witches" in "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" should be "poisoner." The Jews did not have "witches," per se. The "witch" of Endor is a seeress, not a witch. There are some crossover in people who practice magic, but English witches were different from magicians who preceded them.

The translation could have been because "witches" often practiced herbalism, but that is not magic.

@Gwen_Wanderer Growing up we had a bible but it was never read. I still remember my dad reading us kids the Sunday comics but only once from the bible. He was a convert (brother) but never pushed religion on us. The one thing we had to do was go to parochial school which I did all through elementary years. When we moved to Calif. we attended public school.

@Gwen_Wanderer It has also been shown King James wanted to eliminate any antipathy toward rulers.

@pedigojr what most Xtians do not know is that King James was bisexual. I remember one of my grad profs telling the class how people would shout "Long live Queen James!" when his carriage passed. She also read a passage from a letter from someone at court saying that considering what James did in public with young men, the writer would hate to see what is done in private. Alas, I cannot find a copy of that letter!

@pedigojr my mom would read the Bible but not very often. I don't know if my dad ever read the Bible or had verses read to him when he was young, but he would occasionally make a remark about it, i.e. he said that the verse about "earthquakes in divers places" in the end times referred to underwater earthquakes. I was in grad school before I figured out that "divers" was actually "diverse" but spelling was not standardized when the the Bible was translated into English. I can't remember if it were my dad or someone else who insisted that corn was NOT native to the Americas because Ruth "stood in the alien corn." Per my education, I also learned that "corn" was a catch all word for any type of grain, not just maize. She was standing in a wheat field, not a corn field.

@Gwen_Wanderer Interesting comment. My mom didn't seem to have a religion. Her only brother was an atheist. Her mother suffered from dementia and ended up killing herself. Her dad worshiped sweets and other women. She never spoke of religion and just went along with dad who was not overtly pushy on this subject. Out of 7 of us 6 are atheist and one sister is JW.

@pedigojr my mom was Baptist but she also had emotional issues. Late in life, they were diagnosed as chronic depression and bi-polarism. This explained quite a few of her actions, i.e. she would get mad at people at church over silly things and then, she would not go for awhile. She was a bit pushy, but it was more guilting me than pushing me (which is still a type of "pushing" ). I cannot remember my dad going to church though I know he was a believer. My sister turned out staunch Baptist and my brother was ostensibly Xtian, but he had mental issues. Ironically, as my sister battled cancer for ten years, she grew more liberal rather than more religious. I went to a nondenom church for about ten years, practiced paganism for about ten, then admitted I was an atheist to myself and the world.

@Gwen_Wanderer Interesting as my one sister has self-esteem issues. She would literally sit in front of a mirror for hours getting ready for a date. She also contacted polio as a child and this caused one leg to quit growing. She would have to be taken to a hospital annually to get that leg broken so the bones would heal and grow but that leg was full of scars and thin which further hurt her self-esteem. Lately it has returned and if she walks too long the leg would give out so her daughter, dutifully follows her with a walker. She's a JW.

My first wife is also Bi-polar (you must have experienced some of your mom's bi-polar events. I have and they can really shocking). She is really strong (and hypocritical) religious nut. Emotional instability often attracts one to religion.

@pedigojr my mom, sister, and I all had self esteem issues. My mom and sister's died with them, but I managed to leave mine behind when I left my ex-husband after losing 100 pounds. Per appearance, I am what I am --no make-up and I stopped wearing high heels when I stopped teaching on campus.

One never knew which way the wind blew with my mom when I was growing up. One day, an action, etc., would be fine; the next day, the same action was tantamount to crucifying Christ again. She had bouts of manic-depressive behavior. She held it together fairly well but she could also explode with anger toward relatives and neighbors. As she aged, it got worse. She and I had a serious falling out when I was visiting her one summer (she was in OK and I lived in CA) when she called the cops on my sons for setting firecrackers off in the road. This was a situation she should have let me handle. However, it later came out that she had given them permission to set them off! She was finally diagnosed in her 70s and was prescribed meds--they helped.

She used religion like a weapon, as do many Xtians. She was rarely happy, and I regret that she suffered for most of her life. Emotion illnesses "run" in my maternal side. My aunt was crazy, and I mean seeing "things" crazy, but I won't bore you with details.

@Gwen_Wanderer So many stories and I'll bet most have them. My ex knew she had a serious problem but she once told a group of us god made her that way so it's all right. She refused to get treatment and said all the doctors wanted was to get into her pants. Problem was she had a hormone imbalance (too much testosterone-she had a lot of body hair and a sexual addict). I would think 'everybody else does so why not someone who would help. We ended up getting a divorce and marrying a drunken sailor (alcoholic naval officer). Unfortunately, due to certain circumstances, our daughter got caught up between them and became the brunt of their constant fights. She managed to escape and I finally got her to get a therapist (a woman who she loves) and has become a normal, successful woman.

@pedigojr my kids used to tell their friends that their grandma was "crazy." When the other kids said theirs was, too, they would say, "Not like mine--she's REALLY crazy."

My oldest son has issues with depression which he tried "fixing" with drugs. He is in Cali and none of us have heard from him in at least seven years. I am pretty sure he is still alive. My youngest lives down the road and depression hits him, but he has not gone down the tubes. I am glad your daughter got help.

@Gwen_Wanderer My daughter (Marilyn) never suffered from depression. From day one she would sleep the whole night and did not once wake up needing help. In the German home, I built an upper level bed with a space and small flip top desk underneath. If she woke up before us she would go down and draw and hum. Due to her insanely short birth (just over an hour from water break to being born) her mother never bonded (and still doesn't) so I became the main parent. I had no idea and often was too easy but she was my flesh and blood and I did bond.

When she was 7 1/2 she ended up with her mother and drunken step father in Bakersfield CA (long story). She was never depressed but learned to either lie or hide to escape the criticisms. The lying became pathological but she slowly improved but still I detect some hard to swallow stories.

Here she is in the upper part of the bed I built with the kitty cat wallpaper.

@pedigojr I tend not to look at pictures of my oldest son when he was a child. I have learned to distance myself because if I do not, I would be depressed about him consistently. He is an adult and he is responsible for his choice regardless of emotional issues and drug use. His decisions led him to however he is living--he had alternatives and he lives with the one he chose.

@Gwen_Wanderer I can see this but things are often different with different people living with different circumstances. My daughter was messed up due to her circumstances (she told us she lived the Cinderella life and is still looking for prince charming. From the age of 17 1/2 to 43 she disappeared and no matter how hard I tried could not find me. In the end her friends and even children kept telling her she had to get in touch with her dad. She kept track of my contact info but she disappeared from mine and had changed her name. She was sure I would be mad at her and she couldn't accept that. Finally she did contact (FB) and I wasn't mad and we have become united again. She's doing much better and is finally seeking therapy.

@pedigojr my oldest son is 44 and I, his brother, and his kids have not heard from him in at least seven years. He also shunned his dad. And so it goes . . .

If he had just broken off contact with me, that would be one thing, but to break contact with everyone, that is another.

@Gwen_Wanderer I sympathize as I know how it feels to lose track of a child. At least you still have contact with your other kids.
My daughter became close to a guy with serious problems. It was a way of escape for her. This guy dropped out of school, got involved in a shooting and got involved with drugs. I had thought she got together with him and was in an abusive relationship with lots and didn't want me to know, hence her absence. Turned out, something I had done got her away from this guy. It was just about me perhaps being mad and she couldn't handle that.

@pedigojr my other son lives just down the road and he is a wonderful son--I also love his wife.

@Gwen_Wanderer Then you are lucky.

I enjoyed it!

I am quite sure that Xtians believe that dying due to issues of childbirth is just "god's will." I am also sure that most Protestants do not know that Martin Luther said it was of no importance if women suffered in childbirth because that's what women were "here for."

I also pointed out to her that MY sister gave birth to a child who had Down Syndrome and dwarfism who died at birth. Had she known beforehand that the baby would not have survived, she would not have been allowed to have an abortion. I don't think she would have opted for abortion is she had down about the other issues, but why make a woman go through nine months of a pregnancy knowing that the baby will not survive? One person's story is a logical fallacy is not support for an argument.

I am happy to be back in your alerts, as well! I am sure that you don't want to miss any of the vast wisdom I dispense. (Grin.)

When I am not in a hurry, I actually enjoy "conversing" with such people.

Yes, there are many gods and being convinced one's own is the only one is rather arrogant.

Christian apologetics believe that dinosaur bones were planted by the devil to fool people! They are the biggest of the crockpots.

I am sure that this woman didn't graduate at the top of her class. I think conditioning and indoctrination is the biggest reasons and fear fuels the fire. When I was young, hellfire spurred me to try to toe the line. Even when I admitted to myself that I didn't believe any longer (and maybe never believed), I didn't tell anyone for fear of losing friends and alienating family.

This is a global issue. NONE of the anti abortion lobby will offer lifelong support for the mother, child and family.
In some cultures the disabled or girls are routinely killed after birth. Is this practice a more desirable outcome to abortion??
I for one think NOT!

"Do I want you to have control of your body or do I think government should? This should not be a political issue."
I agree, should not be an issue because we sorted it already.

This was all sorted out during trials etc after WW II, namely the Nuremburg trials. Eg Consent is required from the patient for all medical treatment. This consent must be informed and freely given without coercion. It seems we have forgotten that state directed medical treatments are not a good thing. All our nations signed off on these declarations.
But us humans love re-inventing the wheel. So I forecast another world conflict where more trials will be conducted after it's completion. They will confirm what was said at Nuremburg. Then, in another 80 odd years, we will do it all again (if the "West" wins this next war, which I doubt).
Re abortion in the US, actually makes me sick considering they enable slaughtering children in "brown" countries. So all the hand wringing over the sanctity of life is a sick slde show

@puff Thou shalt not kill babies because once they are old enough we need them to kill and get killed in wars benefitting the very wealthy.

@rogerbenham It is not about killing babies. It is not about killing at all as that pertains to life. Life is all about breathing, starting once born. Once we stop breathing, we call that death.
On your theme, it's about extinguishing potential new soldiers/ cannon fodder.

You are 100% right--the choice should be determined by politics.

This woman expected me to be a Christian--that's the long and short of it. Had she not, I don't think she would have said a word about the proposition.

@vocaloldfart There is a quote from a Catholic nun which has been circulating for some time that she if people are not willing to care for the unwanted babies to be born, that is pro-birth, not pro-life. She is right.

@rogerbenham What you said is So very true.

@rogerbenham, @puff Man is the apex predator. There are no predators left to prey on man EXCEPT man himself., and by Jingo , we do a marvelous job of that predation.

@Gwen_Wanderer What a marvelous and absolutely necessary topic for discussion.
With your permission, I will post it in Atheist Universe for discussion.
With Welcome to community and "post no longer available", which yields "frequently Asked Questions" Both stop any discussion what so ever here I am forced to use another forum.

@vocaloldfart Sounds good--just give me credit!

@Gwen_Wanderer you have an Atheist universe ID OR HANDLE?

@vocaloldfart Nope. I don't spread myself around much.

@Gwen_Wanderer may be an idea to look at another forum. This one is dying.
Posts are deleted after posting and comments are disabled on most posts ,
A good time to look elsewhere me thinks.

@rogerbenham We also need them to vote but once you are born you are on your own.

@vocaloldfart Deleted? Who is in charge? Does Agnostics have a god?

@vocaloldfart, @DenoPenno Maybe assuming Trump wins he will set about ensuring all babies born are indoctrinated to become loyalists to Donald Christus Trump. Please can I lick his shoes clean.

@rogerbenham No wonder the rest of the globe treat Americans with disdain. The slavish devotion to the toxic, caustic American gods of party politics.
Seems America has replaced the bible fantasy with their own dual gods.
In no other culture do you find the slavish mind numbing devotion of party politics by the population as a whole. Politics is never perfect in any country, but with the one exception,people still manage to live their lives, think and act of their own volition.

@rogerbenham Yes Agnostic has two gods

@vocaloldfart I wrote an answer but Agnostic trhrew it away. Belief in the bible is rampant as a club membership. Belief in Jesusteachings is completely out of the window. Wealth is god. The USA has two right wing parties verging on beingfascist by the Mussolini definition.