Definition of sexual intercourse: "Involving the penetration of the vagina by the penis."
Regardless of the circumstances that led to the penetration, sex is still sex. Masturbation by definition is the act of achieving sexual gratification without the aid of another person. Prostitution cannot be masturbation because it inherently involves at least two people. I agree that money can never buy love, intimacy and romance but it most definitely can, and does, buy sex.

Porn, movies, advertisements, magazines... also commodify sex. should they be banned as well?

Consensual sex already is free for those who are able to find willing partners. How can that be the answer if it already is the case? Are you suggesting that prostitutes ought to work for free?

Definition of debase: "To lower the value of something or the moral character of someone." The use of a prostitute does not inherently lower the prostitutes moral character. It is a matter of perception. Because society views prostitution as dirty, evil, immoral, etc... the moral character of prostitutes are lowered but that wouldn't be so if people weren't conditioned to perceive them that way.

If I hire a masseuse I do not own her for a few hours. She agreed to provide a service and she is free to renege on that agreement at any time she chooses. The same ought to be true for prostitutes. The only reason it is not is because prostitutes operate outside of the law and therefore have little to no choice in the matter of how their bodies are used. If it were legal, the prostitute would be able to choose what she is willing to do and what she is not. And she could make it stop at any time that she feels uncomfortable without fear of abuse from a pimp.

Yes of course the vast majority of men who agree with prostitution would not agree to prostitute themselves to other men. The vast majority of them are not homosexual so it would be an utterly disgusting experience for them. The fact that most men would turn down an offer of homosexual sex for money does not prove that prostitution is immoral and the fact that you would like to see them do it makes me a bit concerned about your morality.

As for the article you provided, it seems rather sensationalized. I would wager that the horror stories presented in the article are the exception rather than the rule. I don't doubt that some men are violent and treat the women like shit and that some prostitutes work in poor conditions but that doesn't mean that the entire industry is pure evil. The solution is to regulate the industry more tightly, prosecute Johns who step out of line and punish employers who do not provide safe working conditions for their prostitutes.

I think the only way to know for sure if the act of trading sex for money is actually detrimental to a person is through scientific study. Until science confirms that, prostitutes working in safe conditions where they are free to refuse services that they are not comfortable performing without fear of punishment, actually experience detrimental effects, I will continue to believe that there is no harming in selling sex.

I think we have a concensus of sorts as most of us women and men note an exploitive quality to ( legalized) prostitution but we as non- conformists abhor legal intervention into morality as it rarely works. But I see many valid points made by you all

@RoboGraham

If I rent out my body to a man for two hours.

If I find him repulsive, but I need the cash because I'm behind with the rent.

If I have to act out enjoyment, and make fake groaning noises because I want to keep him as a future client.

If I have to develop coping strategies, so I can mentally cut off from what's happening and imagine it is happening to someone else instead - just to get through it.

If I focus intently on the good things in my life.. Children, friends, pets. And that helps me cope, because I know that when it's over with I'll feel empty and used.

But the cash.

If I'm worrying that he might be violent or that he won't pay what he's supposed to - so try to feign pleasure even more.

If I sometimes feel nauseated for a few seconds because I hate what's happening, and my first instinct when he has left is to get in the shower and to scrub all traces of him away. I would ask...

Is that 'sex'?

@Ellatynemouth It's certainly not love making but yes it is sex.

@RoboGraham

No it's not. It's glorified masturbation.

@Ellatynemouth Call it what you will. It doesn't change the fact that prostitution in a legal regulated environment is safer, cleaner, more respectable and less degrading than it is under our current irrational illegal system in which prostitution operates in the black market.

@RoboGraham

Says a man who's never sold his body for cash. Has never been trafficked or threatened by a pimp. All things that have increased in Germany since legalisation.

@Ellatynemouth Incorrect. Those negative aspects of the industry have not increased since legalization. What has increased is reports of those bad things occurring. That's one of the greatest parts about legalization. Prostitutes are not persecuted by the police so they feel safe reporting those things. I assure you, all that bad stuff happens more often in an illegal unregulated system and almost all of it goes unreported because prostitutes know that no good will come of admitting to police that they are breaking the law.

Also, you do not know what has happened to me so don't make assumptions.

One more thing, try googling glorified masturbation. See what comes up.

@RoboGraham

Try reading this link.

I've had my fill of listening to men defend prostitution, and in turn the commodification of women's bodies. You disgust me.

[m.spiegel.de]

Well, paid work debases human dignity. Whether the income is generated by hiring out one's hands, one's brain or any other organs is really irrelevant.

@Ellatynemouth There are plenty of women defending it too. I still don't see how having the option of commodifying ones body is a bad thing. And if attempting to improve living and working conditions of prostitutes by legalizing their profession disgusts you then I am proud to be disgusting.

Also, just because legal prostitution in Germany is not going well does not mean that it can't work. There are many other places where it is legal and functioning safely. The Germany system is just one example out of many.

@Ellatynemouth, @PontifexMarximus So are you saying that self employed prostitutes are not debased?

@RoboGraham any unpleasant task is debasing. Collecting rubbish is as is working in coal mine.

@RoboGraham correct: actors, models etc are commodifying their bodies and so are bricklayers, garbage collectors etc.

@PontifexMarximus So are you saying that people should just stop performing unpleasant tasks?

@sassysapiosexual

I once read an article about a woman, who although being married, felt lonely. With her husband's agreement she hired a man to cuddle her.

There were photos in the article of this man sat on her sofa with his arms around her, cuddling her. She was smiling.

At the end of the day he was an employee.

But what if they could, what if they wanted too? Are you assuming every one who may make that choice is mentally ill? In denial? I am curious. How can we really answer the question of its veracity as a job if the only base line we have is mired in cultural stigma, illegality and questionable practices?

I think you have it backwards. The cases I've known were led to it to obtain money for their particular problem.

And, by the way, I do know people who have chosen it as a lifestyle and profession. I will admit that they are not street prostitutes, but on call for a select clientele. They make a great living and don't have sex with multiple people in a day.

Personally I have yet to hear of a person who has "chosen" ditch-digging as a lifestyle option . Most ditch-diggers have to resort to menial tasks to feed their families.
I don't think "the freedom of others to make their own life decisions" comes into it for most ditch-diggers.

People find ways to survive. Some sell the use of their back, others comodify other body parts. As long as there is a buyer there will be a seller.

Dec 30, 2017 Like1 Report Reply

In countries where it is legal there are many women who choose it through free choice, at the same time there is still some trafficking but legalising it does seem to reduce the forceful element of it

if it was legal then women couldn’t be coerced into doing it. If they didn’t want to, then it would fail. Judicious monitoring by the state with serious legal ramifications for coercion should ensure a free selection.

I don't particularly enjoy my job. I go to work out of necessity. Yeah I'd say most of them don't choose to get into it as a lifestyle option but more out of a need to make a living. Perhaps if the industry was regulated and safer fewer who do get into it would have to resort to drugs to deal with it.

@Gatovicolo - Why would it change if it was legal? Pimps will still use vulnerable women/girls//boys to do the work. It's a dirty business, and legalising it won't make it any cleaner. I'd increase the penalties for using prostitutes, not being one.

I think there are some high end call girls and college women who do choose but choose carefully who they go with. But that is not the norm.

@GoldenDoll we are in agreement. Most of the people on this thread voice their opinion only.. I didnt have to dig too far into legitamate research to learn that legalization increases trafficking and increases crimeIn Amsterdam prostitutes were still harmed even with 3 panic buttons in the room..There has been more success reducing prostitution by punishing the johns..

It's not a lifestyle, it's a job. I've known both male and female sex workers who have enjoyed the job, and those who didn't. It's not easy work, but it works for some. It should be a legal job for those that opt for it.

I agree. In my indirect dealings with survivors of human sexual trafficking, I would say it’s a way of life with which they are familiar, and have not explored or aware of other vocational skills they possess. They only know they get paid, and it some indifferent detached way, they find comfort or nurturing in this profession.

It is true that many have been abused in the past and therefore technically it is not a free choice but the majority of free choice is based on past experiences and people react to those in different ways. Maybe the abuse has drawn then to that career but there are more people who are abused who don't take that path so I would argue there is still a choice and they shouldn't be criminalised

Well how do we ascertain whether or not someone wants to truly be a message therapist, or a teacher or solder or any profession for that matter? If prostitutes have the option to work in clean regulated brothels or I suppose some could be self employed, they will be free to choose if they want to get into it and free to choose if they would like to get out of it.

Legalization would fill the need for prostitutes with those who do freely chose to do it in safe clean environments and would put the illegitimate parts of the industry and human trafficking out of business. It's similar to how we very rarely come across illegal unregulated booze these days. During prohibition it was the only option but now it's simple enough to just go to a bar or liquor store. There aren't many unregulated breweries and distilleries operating outside of the rules established by government because it's simply makes more sense to operate within the limits of the law. The same will be true for prostitution. And drugs for that matter. Just look at countries that have legal options for prostitution and you will see that their prostitutes live safer better lives and are free and protected by law while ours find themselves in horrible conditions with little freedom to get out if they want to because the people they work for are operating outside the law and care little for the freedom and feelings of their sex workers.

legal or not I would say most prostitution is a perpetuation of sexual abuse. If it is not legal the punishment should go to the purchaser of the services.@robograham the careers you cited are not illegal.They do not involve the exploitation or abuse of power (thinking especially of teacher) that sexual involvement automatically opens one to.ANd to anyone that has had those conversations where they think the person is happy about doing it, there are other conversations from another point of view you may not have had.Alcohol is legal but you can not tell me that society does not suffer negative consequences of its use, legal or not

@Dave92 the puchaser should be criminalized

@SamMcGlone talk to them in 10 years. If what you are saying is that it is a great business opportunity then there should be no problem guiding your children or other loved ones to this choice

Let's determine why men crave sex. To get around monogamy?

@SamMcGlone I would rather have a clear opinion than be ignorant. Your experience in sales would not correlate to mine in psychiatry. and I stick with what I said

I think she is actually quite unhappy. I'm guessing she got much more baggage than she anticipated. I feel sorry for her actually.

It worked for all of trump's wives.

exfuckingsactly i have all the respect for actual prostitutes who sell sex directly for money but I just need them to actually fancy me sincerely. if you film prostitution its all fucking legal.

@SACatWalker Do you really think she likes him?

She also wasn't a prostitute....there's a difference between a nude model and someone who does penetration for money. As much as I hate Drumpf, I kind of feel sorry for Melania...you can sense she really hates even being around him.

@Clauddvon thank you for your comment.

It is illegal nearly everywhere outside of Nevada, we really do need to follow the netherlands model and legalize and regulate it.

@misstuffy

I am still smelling a one-mile long bill of regulations. Keep it minimal.

Wow!

25% of female culture is prostitution?

I had no idea that a quarter of my reason for being is to service men.

@Ellatynemouth Okay but this "service to men" thing is actually making women wealthy and helping them fare financially. You're not these women's parents/coach or whatever to decide the nature of what they're doing, especially when they're observing customer-friendly practices, like enforcing the use of contraception. You have a reductionistic and impressionistic view of female prostitution.

@DZhukovin

You need to educate yourself about prostitution.

Did you read my link?

You realise many women are trafficked into prostitution and most men don't care about that. In countries where prostitution is legal, trafficking has increased.

One fundamental thing not being mentioned here is gender. When we talk about prostitutes we are talking about women, not men. This is not an equal playing field.

@Ellatynemouth Prostitution and sex trafficking are not the same thing. Please pay attention to what is actually being said.

They most likely did experience a higher quality of living than we do nowadays.

Australia has legalised prostitution and it's safer for both prostitutes and customers.

@Lancer That’s the way it should be.

@SpikeTalon Are you joking or just ignorant of living conditions for ancient people?

@RoboGraham Neither. While the ancient Romans may not have had the modern conveniences we enjoy today, I think life was easier to live back then, not as many distractions.

@SpikeTalon no life in general wasn’t better however the Patricians were the wealthy and controlled almost all life

@Trajan61 dear Emperor you are abso right

@TheMiddleWay I disagree with Wiki. There are plenty of religious and secular accounts that say different. I'm not going to bother to cite them. They're just too numerous.

@TheMiddleWay [badnewsaboutchristianity.com]

@TheMiddleWay You win. You're right. I'm too lazy and busy with other things to argue with you.

Regulate it with what? You're not coming through clear, and I smell a thirty page bill of extremely strict regulations in the horizon.

@DZhukovin Regulate in the same way they do alcohol, tobacco, and drug use. How they do that would be up to the politicians and who is in their pockets.

@SheThatB

Okay, so your idea is to regulate in the same way that do alcohol, tobacco, and drug use. How they do that would be up to the politicians and who is in their pockets. I use your input to show that this idea was fully addressed.

How is that going to remotely accomplish anything? All of those regulations you mentioned are founded on the premise that everyone matures in the same rate, with the same maturation profile, and the laws surrounding alcohol, tobacco, and drugs are so extensive, that it only complicates the issue of what the proper size of government is.

That suggestion is actually very mistaken. I don't know what you were told about the real proficiency that any government has in doing its functions, but they are extremely minimal and you have been misinformed.

@DZhukovin the question was not about the proper size of government, or maturation rates of the general population. It was a simple question about whether prostitution should be legalized. I answered the question with my opinion. My opinion has not changed.

@SheThatB

Okay, so your argument is that both of us are working under different premises. However, we are both working under the premise that prostitution should be legalized, regulated, and taxed, just like they do with alcohol.

I was asking you to go into that more, but you were speaking tangents, and not answering my original question. So I will just ask it again: regulate it with what?

@DZhukovin I have no argument. I made a simple opinion statement to a question asking for an opinion. I'm not here to argue so I'll leave it at that.

As long as men control it, there will be abuse.

@GoldenMean I agree. I was just scanning a wikipedia article about legalized prostitution in Europe looking for something else. Germany has had major liberalized laws for some time. THere has been increased human traffiking there since sex tourism has become such a big business.Legal or not I think of the effect on the individual exposed to abuse and trauma and the ripple effect through society in present time and through generations. The current situation is horrible along those lines and I think legalization would not necessarily adress those issues

Hi, as one who has a Doctorate in Theology ( also is a Life-Long Atheist btw) I can tell you that the Catholic Church, the root source of ALL modern Xtian Sects, did attempt to make Prostitution Illegal in the 8th and 9th Centuries C.E. however it was only done because the 'so-called' common Whores and Bordellos were operating in opposition to those Owned, Operated and frequented by the Church Hierarchy right up the line to including the Popes and were eroding the Profits the Catholic Church was gaining from its 'little' SLY Enterprises.
Even to this day there are still Bordellos Owned and operated by Catholic Cardinals, etc, and frequented by ALL members of the Catholic Hierarchy especially in Rome and Italy.
As a point of note here, The R.C.C. still holds to the ideology that NO Prostitute can receive Absolution, the Sacrament nor be buried in 'Holy' Ground even if she/he is employed in a Bordello/Brothel owned by the Church.
Another PRIME example of Religious Hypocrisy indeed.

Very well spoken.

In Germany and other European countries (Holland) is is legal and the workers work for the state and get benefits including health and retirement.

@JackPedigo Just like every other worker. Here in American, we don't even have that.

@Spinliesel I know, those damned socialized countries?! Funny first it was communism and now it's socialism. We are our own worst enemies.

@Spinliesel Yeah for one of the richest countries in the world it sure seems to lack in areas that matter most. Sad state of affairs. Some countries plainly take care of their people better.

What's wrong with sucking dick? Why shouldn't it be an acceptable option? People shouldn't feel shame over sexual acts, it's totally natural. Your prudish attitude here is exactly what I'm getting at when I say that religion has created a sexually repressed society.

@RoboGraham Unless you did read and comprehend what I wrote and just chose to deny it. I think the word is gaslighting.

@thinkwithme I guess I don't get it.

It seems like you Ozzies have really got it together. Gun control, legal prostitution, riding kangaroos everywhere to cut down on carbon emissions. Have you guys legalized cannabis yet? I think we did beat you to the punch on homosexual marriage though.

@RoboGraham Medicinal cannabis only, so far, and not in every state. Gay marriage, though, is nationwide now. Do you have it in all states? Kangaroos give an incredibly bumpy ride, although the pouch is handy for the shopping (providing Joey's left home).

@Coffeo Our Supreme court ruled in favor of marriage equality a few years ago so it applies to all states. Although many states would rather not have it. The red ones particularly. Are there many holy rollers in Australia? Do you guys have a bible belt?

@RoboGraham There is one of those Hillsong churches a few kilometres away, and I think they are a bit pushy. But I've never encountered them around here. There is no bible belt, thank god (or whoever)

@Coffeo Wonderful. Although Ken Ham is one of yours. I thought it was pretty funny how he blamed the atheist when his arc museum failed. That guy is delusional.

Yes, a lot of people have made a lot of good points. Where do you stand?

@RoboGraham legalize it. I posted my thoughts days ago. Then someone commented on my post and I scolled thru all the posts after mine and posted the comment you queried me on.

How much do you charge?

@Zoidburg for what? tracking posts?

@silverotter11 Indeed! Sorry, should have been more specific!

True. Some respondents to this post have proposed the idea of making it legal to prostitute one's body but keep it illegal to purchase a prostitute. The idea being that it will shift the condemnation from the prostitute (usual a woman) to the john (usually a man). I think it's wrong to ban it for either participant and if we legalize it completely, the social status of prostitutes, and johns as well, will probably rise.

@RoboGraham I agree, I think legalizing it is the way to go. It is after all just sex and just a transaction...no big deal. Legalizing it will hopefully remove the dangers and abuse that it mostly operates under presently.

Excellent point, the double standards live on unfortunately.

I used to believe in legalisation. But all that does is reinforce the cultural idea that women's bodies are a commodity, which is degrading.

[m.spiegel.de]

Dear I don’t think I’ve got a century or two left in me

[m.spiegel.de]

@Ellatynemouth The problems cited in that article seems more to do with Human Trafficking than the legalisation of prostitution. I doubt the trafficking only started after legalisation and I'm sure the law didn't make it legal for 14 year old girls to become prostitutes. Generally, making something illegal drives it underground and creates situations like the ones illustrated in that article.

@djalicex Unfortunately there will always be perverts who want to have sex with children, some are obcessed with virgins and so on. They are just plain sick.

@djalicex
Ellatynemouth thinks that the spiegel article is absolute proof that legal prostitution cannot work. She has been posting it everywhere. She doesn't seem to realize that it is focused on one example of a legal system and that there are many other countries that have legal systems of prostitution that function much better.

I started to read some articles because of this debate. on first scan legalization does not solve the problems people hope it would

@btroje I think you are right that legalization will not solve all the problems concerning this complex issue. But it will be a step in the right direction. We also need to further the cause of feminism and teach men to treat women with respect and dignity. These problems that you are concerned about will not end until chauvinism is dead.

the only difference is you get to sell your product, take it back and sell it again. footballers wives are just prostitutes pretending to be something else. I know at best im average looking in my younger years and for my age not bad. I like real people even if its a quick bit of lusty fucking once or the rest of my life. im realistically probably going to stay single really and im good with that.I want to fuck someone I fancy and make love to somebody I fancy and love their very life force, personality, their honesty, their mistakes and their faults. I want them to be the same. my biggest sex organ is either my skin or and my brain. in the meantime, I can watch Pornhub and imagine anything I want and be a bit lonely. I don't need women but I would just like one. if she's a lady treat her like a lady, if not fuck her. I know given the opportunity I would have been a right slag and potentially am. id be happier with someone I treat like a lady in public ish and like a complete passionate no holds bars erotic tart in our own time. it's the same both ways. I don't care what you used to be within reason ie kiddy fiddler or cruel fucker etc. I probably wouldn't care if you used to be a prostitute or porn star or even still are as long as your straight with me in the first place so i have the choice.

COOL!

Hahahaha

Everyone who can afford it!

[m.spiegel.de]

@Ellatynemouth So has normal work....so the concept is that we need to fix the concept of "work" so that no one is exploited or forced to work. But working for sex at a fundamental level is not an issues. Grind that ax elsewhere.

@MissaDixon

You have no right to silence me.

@Ellatynemouth we need to move 5 Billion (that's billion) people NOW because of global warming...So...it's low on my priority list right now. And I'm confused ( said with zero distrspect and in complete honestly) why there is anything more important than that. Sure We must make sure that sex workers are treated as the same as every other type of worker which is MUCH better than they are now. But saving lives is more important right now. #Priorities.

Those who were not abused, are they also victims?

That’s called transference—- counter transference a complicated psychological relationship between at least 2 or more people where deep internal experiences can be relived. So yes that can be a dangerous situation and abuse hx can be re-enacted

Yes prostitution can be a resounding or re-enactment of abuse as a child but I can say what the statistics might indicate

How do you know that most were abused? Please site some evidence?

When I was in the military as a hospital corpsman we screened prostitutes for stds. Now at first it appeared to me that our government was supporting prostitution. It did not take me long to realize people were going to have sex no matter what. The military was simply doing their best to protect their marines and sailors. As a result it was also beneficial to the entire community.

Bear in mind, that throughout history, wherever there was an army or military base, there were brothels. In addition, a mobile army always had more than a few prostitutes in tow, to service the soldiers or sailors, whatever the case. Also, many of the women who went west to populate the country were prostitutes who in some cases rose to high society positions. In addition, in the middle ages, women had two choices, marry and become chattel or become a courtesan and wield power, gain riches, own real estate and influence politicians.

@SACatWalker it’s not illegal to offer it but it’s illegal to purchase it !! lol

Yeah, it's just as ridiculous.

Well Said

What's different in Clark county Compared to the rest of Nevada?

its not legal-Las Vegas is in Clark county.

Wow! Pathetic men sounds way too harsh but if that's your opinion, so be it.

Yeah, for some people this is what works best for them. Sheen is something of a poor example as he knew he had an STD, did not inform partner(s) or use condom. ewwww that's pretty low life. I get the impression most of the people posting or commenting to this post act in a responsible manner regarding their sexual activity. It HAS been an interesting discussion.