That's why some people do not believe the numbers. How can they dispose of 3000 bodies every day for 6 years? How many camps were there?

@smoyle there were plenty of concentration camps. There were also extermination camps, prepared with facilities and resources to expedite executions. I want to emphasize that I am not discussing if six million were killed or not. Whatever the number is, it is one too many. I am only saying that the amount of work required to reach such numbers seems incredible formidable, even if that would have been the only thing they had to do. Which it was clearly not. I understand this is a sensitive subject. Trying to understand the logistics and implication to execute a task of such magnitude requires analysis.

You sound like an empty headed Holocaust denier.

Do the research on Auschwitz. It was an industrial scale killing factory. It was huge and run with typical German precision.

@smoyle "Between 1933 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its allies established more than 40,000 camps and other incarceration sites. The perpetrators used these sites for a range of purposes, including forced labor, detention of people thought to be enemies of the state, and mass murder. The total number of sites is based upon ongoing research in the perpetrators' own records."

Not all were death camps, first they slaved ya to death, allowed disease to get ya, or medical experiments.

It was an industry. No one doubts how many cars Detroit can, or could turn out in a day. In WW2 the US turned out a liberty ship daily, not to mention all the tanks, jeeps, planes and lorries.
Genocide has happened before and since. Sadly it will probably happen again. What sickens us most about the holocaust is the shear industrial efficiency of it.

@273kelvin that's exactly my point, it must have been industrial efficiency.

@IamNobody Now I'm not a denier or confirmer, and I know very little on the subject, it just seems impossible for it to have been done.

There are people who have tried to calculate the actual number (if 6,000,000 is propaganda) based on cremation time. An example is here: [ihr.org]. Don't forget the amount of fuel (sorry to be insensitive by the way) it would have taken for the (horrendous) task.

Just to confirm, I'm not suggesting atrocities were not committed. I've just learned not to trust our present government and media, and it's looking like the past governments and media weren't much better.

@Davesnothere I'm not going to argue with that, you're probably right, I know too little on the subject.

@smoyle The reality of the situation must have been really harsh, as you mentioned the fuel implications as an example. It is a dark passage in the world history, however as painful and horrible it was, that should not prevent or deter anyone from making rational analysis. It is still taboo of sorts and I have been called already "empty headed Holocaust denier" only because I am thinking about logistics and numbers. I am not German, I am not Jew. I have not interest whatsoever to deny anything, but that cannot stop me from trying to make an analysis. Perhaps a better question(s) than pointing fingers to one third of Americans is the fact that 3000 were killed day in day out and if it is actually true, why no one did anything about it? Some answers have been "The world didn't know".. seriously, how do you hide such operation. I think the world knew very well and choosed to look the other way because they knew there was a chance some of them will have to pick the tab after the war. Taking 6 million refugees is not a trivial bussines. Another interesting fact, if we keep dwelling on it, the story is always written by the conqueror. Anyway, my point all along has been, this issue as painful as it is should be fully discussed. It's just to easy to accept all facts and condem the ones willing to rationalize it.

@smoyle "There are people who have tried to calculate the actual number (if 6,000,000 is propaganda) based on cremation time"
That is a very inept math set to use to do a calculation, FEW were cremated at first, although that became the stadard practice in certain death camps. Many more were buried in mass graves.

You are far too generous with your statistical analysis. Even the proponents of the Holocaust admit that Auschwitz was not constructed until late 1941, and it was abandoned by the Germans in late 1944 as the Red Army pushed toward Germany in the closing months of the war. Holocaust proponents claim that the first mass killings began in early 1942 and ended in late 1944 -- so just three years. So double all your monthly figures. By the summer of 1944 Allied strategic bombing was rapidly destroying Germany's industrial capacity, including its supply of oil. Much of the rail system was also destroyed. Germans could not get fuel to supply their remaining fighter planes to go up and oppose American bombers. They often did not have the fuel for their Panzer tanks. And we are to believe during this time they were using precious fuel to cremate Jews on an industrial scale? There was starvation in most of these concentration camps when the allies liberated them because there was little food left and no way to get it to the camps. The material situation in Germany in the last year of the war was actually worse than it was in the South in the closing months of the Civil War. But yet we are to believe the Germans were gassing and cremating tens of thousands of Jews each day. This is especially hard to believe when there is no infrastructure at Auschwtiz or any other camp to support such a process, nor any forensic evidence left behind to prove such numbers.

@PalacinkyPDX Absolutely, and a part of my reasoning against someone calculating death totals based on cremation times, wholly inadequate to the task.

@PalacinkyPDX, @skeptic99 "In Auschwitz-Birkenau, the authorities had no respect for the dead and did not abide by civilian rules of cremation. They burned multiple bodies at once and the process was continuous. It is a false comparison to equate the cremations at Auschwitz-Birkenau with civilian crematoria. "

"In Auschwitz-Birkenau, Nazi camp authorities were not burdened by respect for the dead or any need to consider civilian rules regarding cremation. The ovens were filled with as many bodies as could be fit into them. For instance, the men in the Sonderkommandos were instructed to combine the bodies of fat people, skeletal ‘Muselmänner,’ and children. This was done to burn the most bodies in the least amount of time; they put the bodies in the ovens continuously. The result was very high efficiency: very little fuel was needed to keep the process going for hours or days. Testimony suggests that the ovens were used continuously. Henryk Mandelbaum, a Sonderkommando at Auschwitz-Birkenau, testified as such: “. . . the crematorium [worked] full steam and each shift stayed there until the next Kommando came to work.”

"Comparing the civilian cremation process to the process at Auschwitz-Birkenau is a misguided. The authorities in Auschwitz-Birkenau abandoned any respect for the dead and did not abide by civilian rules for cremation. They burned multiple bodies at one time, continuously pushing in more to keep the fires hot. The crematoria ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau certainly cremated many more bodies than the 85,092 figure Fred Leuchter calculated.

Further, the issue is ultimately irrelevant; when the ovens’ daily capacities were exceeded, bodies were burned in open-air pits."

[hdot.org]

@273kelvin, @Davesnothere If there were millions of corpses buried in mass graves, these would be easily found. Why have they NOT been found. The ten-thousand murdered Polish officers and intellectuals who were shot by the Jewish-Bolshevik communists and buried in a mass grave in the Katyn Forest were quickly found and the bodies exhumed by the German Army. If they could find a mass grave with ten thousand dead, why has nobody found the missing bodies of the buried six million Jews, now that we have established that it would have been physically impossible to cremate that many bodies in three years time with the tiny facilities that existed at Auschwitz and the other "death camps."

@skeptic99 They have been found. over and over again.

Here is the question which bothers me.

If you are not a holocaust denier, why say things like
"Now I'm not a denier or confirmer, and I know very little on the subject, it just seems impossible for it to have been done."
???

Or bring up cremation times and question the vast evidence of mass graves

Yet, never bother to google it yourself, or watch the deep list of documentaries on Netflicks on this very topic, or go to the Library, Mueseum or talk to survivors while they are still around?

All of this data is easily accessable and takes seconds nowadays, but a few of you seem really quick to question the data, and utterly inactive on the question of resolving your boggles.

Now why is that I wonder?
Could it be that you are more comfortable with it being wrong, and humans not capable of industrial slaughter of other humans, even though we do it to all other species?

You may think your not a denier, but you sound like a flat Earther on this topic.

[bbc.com]

@Davesnothere Dave, you throw out an incredible number: 40,000 concentration and death camps run by the Nazis. Let's agree that some camps would be a lot bigger than others, but for the sake of compromise let's assume each camp had guards or staff working them. Most US prisons today have staff's of about 500 for each 800 inmates. But we will assume the Germans were super efficient and did not need nearly so a ratio. We leave it at . Multiply by 40,000 and you get 4,000,000. That's four million people doing nothing but running concentration camps! At the start of the war the German army had 3.7 million men. At its peak in 1943 the German Army had 6.5 million men. And they were losing the war. Do you really believe they had the capacity to run 40,000 concentration camps with skeleton crews of men each = 4 million men? Makes no sense, and if this were true it would indicate they lost the war.

@Davesnothere, @273kelvin The Jewish population before WW II and after the war was pretty much the same. This is one of the arguments against the six-million number. Before the war ever started Jewish writers were predicting six million Jews would die if Britain and the US did not go to war against Hitler. This number -- six million -- was a propaganda number pulled out of somebody's ass. I've already said I believe about a quarter-million Jews died in the war, mostly on the Eastern Front by SS units and ethnic militias fighting with the Germans. But the rest of the claims remind me of the incredible stories of the Old Testament, especially like the stories from Exodus where Moses brought down plagues on the Egyptians, the Red Sea parted, mannah from heaven, and on and on. Simple minded people believe this nonsense. Simple-minded people believe the wild stories about the Holocaust. It's the same crap from the same people. Do you also believe the stories about Nazis making lamp shades from Jewish skin and soap from Jewish fat?

@skeptic99 YOU ARE A HOLOCAUST DENIER

[cnn.com]

"The Jewish population before WW II and after the war was pretty much the same."

"When the Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, Jews were living in every country of Europe. A total of roughly nine million Jews lived in the countries that would be occupied by Germany during World War II. By the end of the war, two out of every three of these Jews would be dead, and European Jewish life would be changed forever."

incidentally, I am sure the 40,000 numer includes all the temp camps they have found evidence of, which were all over.

Do me a favor and go meet a few survivors. To this old vet you are calling vast swaths of our troops liars.

@273kelvin, @Davesnothere You know, Dave, I have looked the data and the evidence presented by both sides on this issue. I see a steady retreat on the claims by the Holocaust promoters because they are losing the debate. For example, it was originally claimed that Jews were gassed and murdered in death camps in Germany. Now everyone agrees there were no death camps in Germany. These were all essentially prisons, just like we have here with our prison-industrial complex in the US. At one time it was claimed over four million Jews died at Auschwitiz. That claim has been reduced to about one million now, with the rest of the dead Jews having been gassed at camps that once existed in eastern Europe but were destroyed long ago. In the early years after the war pictures of shrunken Jewish skulls, claimed to sit on Nazi leaders' desks, and lamp shades made of Jewish skin were shown. Also I have seen pictures of bars of soap that were alleged to be made from the fat of murdered Jews by the Nazis. All this stuff was claimed in the early years after the war to justify what the British and the Americans did: UTTERLY DESTROY EUROPE AND KILL MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. Now it is admitted that all this stuff was bogus, not true, but simple-minded people believed it after the war. And yet the Jews refuse to come off that magic number of six million. There is simply no physical evidence to support it. This is obvious. I've looked at their evidence. Yes, Jews were persecuted and killed by the Nazis, but masterful story-tellers that they are, the Jews just could not resist blowing this thing up into an insane dimension. The evidence to support the six million number is eroding; in fact, it was never there to begin with. This is I place the Holocaust as a myth, a contemporary legend that is the latest addition to the of Judaism. It's something one must take on faith and faith alone.

The Holocaust is a powerful idea built upon hate, and once it is accepted then logically it gives Jews ultimate leverage over any political or social issue that confronts them, and also gives them the trump card to prevail in any debate. It's just like saying you believe in the tenets of a (like God and Satan, heaven and hell). Once you accept these things as valid then you are trapped by the people who wield these ideas. It is the same with the Holocaust idea. Once you accept the claim as valid, then you must accept fighting endless wars for Israel and even thousands of dead Palestinian children are of no consequence.

@Davesnothere Your post regarding the Jewish explanation of how the Nazis were able to burn thousands of bodies per day in four simple cremation ovens that existed at Auschwitz is exactly what I am talking about when I point out how obviously preposterous these claims become. Let's agree that after the first year of the war, nobody was fat in Europe (unless you were some elite Nazi like Herman Goering) Jews were supposedly being worked and starved to death as slave laborers. And you post comments in quotations (although with no attribution) that sounds like the kind of wild story Elie Wiesel would spin... at any rate, we have to assume the quote is from an eye-witness to what is being claimed. But it is an explanation they attempts to explain how millions of corpses were burned with little fuel in totally insufficient facilities. Basically, it's claimed the workers mixed in fat Jews with the skinny Jews, and once they got the fire going the body fat provided the fuel to keep the cremation process going non-stop. They just kept shoving more and more bodies in the ovens, keeping the fat-to-skinny ratio just right. This is so laughable. For a number of years I lived in a home that had a wood heater. I learned you cannot build any kind of functional fire with green wood. It just won't burn worth a sht. At best the green wood will smolder if you have some dry wood to first get it started. Keep throwing in more green wood and you will simply create a slow smoldering mess that eventually puts itself out and you have to clean it all out and start all over with dry wood. Again, you learn this kind of stuff if you have ever heated with wood. Well green hardwoods range from 20 to 30 percent moisture weight. And adult human body is comprised of about 60 percent water. Only an utter fool and just an ignorant klutz would believe this story that you could cram a small little cremation oven like the four originally installed at Auschwitz full to capacity and with little or no additional fuel burn all these bodies continuously relying only on the body fat of the fat Jews as fuel. This explanation is HILARIOUS. Dave, you've got to be the must gullible klutz ever to believe such a story. I'll bet you cannot change the oil in your car or change a flat tire. But you get such incredibly stories like this from Holocaust gurus all the time.

I Googled the amount of fuel required to cremate a human body. The answer I got was the process requires a temperature be maintained between 1,400 and 2, degrees Farenheit for two to four hours. This is equivalent to the fuel that would be needed to drive 4,800 miles. I suppose this was the Luftwaffe did not have the gasoline to put in its fighter planes in the closing months of the war or diesel fuel for its Panzer tanks. It was all being diverted to Auschwitz to cremate Jews. What a joke. Clearly this is an impossible story. This is it is against the law to ask questions about the Holocaust in over 20 countries. It's so easy to expose the Holocaust as a .://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

@skeptic99 "Once you accept the claim as valid, then you must accept fighting endless wars for Israel and even thousands of dead Palestinian children are of no consequence."

What a ridiculous assertion. They are not mutually exclusive. People don't have to cow tow to whatever Jews want because of the Holocaust. Maybe you think that way. Don't project.

@Davesnothere You are confusing me with Smoyle. He said he's not a Holocaust denier. You have attributed his entire post to me. Let me explain my position. I believe several hundred-thousand Jews were killed during WW II, almost all of them in Poland and Eastern Europe. Many were rounded up and executed by Nazi SS units assigned this task. Other Jews fell into the hands of Ukranian militias and other pro-Nazi nationals in the east. So, yes, I believe this, and I have repeatedly said I believe these killings happened from the start of this discussion. Here is where I have issues. 1. I think the numbers are greatly exaggerated, probably by a factor of ten or more. 2. I think the methods of killing are exaggerated for dramatic purposes. People were simply shot where they were found. They were not rounded up and shipped hundreds of miles to be gassed and cremated. This would have been a highly inefficient way to kill Jews or anyone else. Communists did not do this with their victims, and neither did the Nazis. 3. Almost all of the images we think we know about the Holocaust are fiction, for example Elie Wiesel's novelettes like "Night" are purely fiction. He was 15 when he was at Auschwitz. He did not begin writing about the experience until years later, and most of what he wrote was not factual. He even had different versions of the book with totally different details depending on which audience the book was intended for; for example, in versions of "Night" released for sale in Israel he includes stories about Jewish revenge on Germans after being released at the end of the war -- because he knew this kind of thing would be popular with that audience. Versions released in the US or Europe would make no mention of Jewish revenge. "Sophie's Choice" is another example of how the Holocaust tale morphs and changes, how fictional and malleable it is. The film is based upon a book written in 1982 by an American writer born in Virginia. Sophie is not even Jewish. She is a Catholic Polish woman. Yet the only thing most people remember is the famous scene where a German guard makes her choose which of her two children will live and which will die immediately in the gas chamber. Neither of her children are Jewish. They are blond-haired and blue-eyed Christians. Historically it makes no sense. The scene actually pisses off some Jews because it universalizes the Holocaust. Yet almost everyone who believes in the Holocaust has seen this scene. It is so powerful that it sticks in the brain, and people believe they fully understand the evil Nazis and the Holocaust. Gentile women can especially relate to the scene BECAUSE the children are so WHITE -- just like their own. "The Pianist" is another fictional account of this period and deals with imagined stuff that happened in Poland, at Treblinka, etc. "Schindler's List" is another well known movie, fictional of course, but focused on the Holocaust. I Googled Holocaust movies and I got things like "The Top 50 Most Moving Holocaust Films," [imdb.com], and ten Holocaust movies you must see, etc.

My point here is that everything we think we know about the Holocaust is based upon Hollywood fantasy that feeds and feeds upon itself. Trying to separate the myth, the fiction and the fantasy from reality is where I am at. For 99.5 percent of the people, the Hollywood fantasies represent all they know and understand about the Holocaust.

@skeptic99 Your language is very revelatory. "Holocaust promoters", a term which never could have existed outside the nurenburg trials after ww2.

"Your post regarding the Jewish explanation "
It is not "the Jewish explanation", it is the evidence of what was found at the end of ww2.

Like your looking at a burnt cake saying "its not THAT burnt, and anyway, how did they burn it like that without a bigger oven?"

The Nazi's kept meticulous records, which we found along with ovens of bodies, and mass graves, constant reports of roving death squads, who killed in the 1-150 range on average, and buried the results all through the baltics and eastern bloc.

""When United States troops entered Germany at the end of World War II, they seized all sorts of German records and brought them back to the United States. Among these were lists of Jews deported from Germany and extensive material from concentration camp records, primarily from camps located in the United States occupied zone of Germany, but also from other camps. Before the original documents were sent back to Germany and given to the International Red Cross at Arolsen, microfilmed copies were made and given to the United States National Archives (NARA). These were held in NARA under the rubric "Captured German Records". Although this microfilm collection was available for public inspection, they were not included in NARA's official inventory/catalog, and little use was made of the collection. "

All quotes from our records (US Army) which we sold copies of to the holocaust museum.

I suppose D Day was fake too right?

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier "I Googled the amount of fuel required to cremate a human body. The answer I got was the process requires a temperature be maintained between 1,400 and 2, degrees Farenheit for two to four hours."

This is a common tactic of Anti-Semites who dent the Holocaust. It fails because the numbers your googling are for proper, normal, legal cremations, not for an oven which never stops running and into which you just keep shoving.
THAT is in evidence.

"Holocaust deniers claim that those “few” Jews who perished died from natural causes or were legitimately executed by the Nazi state for actual criminal offenses. They assert that Jews and the Allied powers deliberately inflated the numbers of Jews killed during the war. Holocaust historians have placed the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust between 5.1 and 6 million, based on legitimate available historical sources and demographic methods. Holocaust deniers cite uncertainty about the exact number of deaths within this accepted range as proof that the whole history of the Holocaust has been fabricated and that the number of Jewish deaths during World War II has been grossly exaggerated."

I don't source unless asked to, but you don't really want the source, you have a position of faith based on assertions and denial of facts.
That is not skepticism, that is Anti-Semitism.

@skeptic99 Auschwitz was built in April of 1940. It "opened" in May of 1940. Prisoners were brought in to Auschwitz in May/June of 1940. Not late 1941. How can you be so wrong on so much?

@skeptic99 So first you said 250K and now you estimate about 600K (10 times less than officially estimated). Which is it?

@skeptic99 , you are a mendacious liar. Period!

@Trueblueroo Oh, come now, Trueblue. Getting all huffed up and calling someone a "mendacious liar" proves nothing except you are in over your head.

@skeptic99

We all can agree on a round earth.

damn it stop being the voice of reason when we want to get mad about something

@engineer_in_nj aka "irrational"?

@FrayedBear no.

I never knew anyone that tattooed numbers like that on their arms for fun

@btroje It was also seen as a very major violation of scripture.

So it was not only a way to keep track of people, but to try to make them feel very violated in one more way.

@BufftonBeotch just to have a tattoo of any kind?

@btroje For the most orthodox it possibly was.

I have been to Auschwitz and the Holocaust Museum in DC. Very moving, saddening, but so crucial to understand it. My kids (19 and 22 at the time) chose the museum when we were in DC. I was so proud of them.

@HippieChick58 My daughter when visiting sites of historic tragedies is impacted very emotionally.

Ford's theater - Vietnam War memorial - Andersonville

She will go off by herself and weep quietly.

She's also fierce when the need comes though.

@BufftonBeotch Sounds like a success story Mom

@Storybook It mis a sad fact that they do not even teach American history correctly just remember what you were taught about the American Indian. Most likely nothing.

When I saw GW Bush on YouTube say 9/11 could have been an inside job. The State and bankers I trust the least.
Politic Authorities are the most inhumane, intimating, thieving and murdering group on the Planet.

I'm Not a Holocaust denier, just researched facts that tell a different story about 6 million Jews Murdered.

@Storybook
I have a different perspective in life.
Two most important things for happiness is your health and what you can forget.

There is ZERO correlation between Trump supporters and those who question the Holocaust. Most Trump supporters are Bible Thumpers who have had it pounded into their skulls by their Baptist preachers that "God will bless them who bless the Jews, and He will curse them who curse the Jews." Thus, most Trump supporters are ardent Christian Zionists who support neo-cons like John Bolton and are all for going to war against Iran, Iraq or anybody else Israel demands.

I naturally assume that most atheists are capable of critical thinking. If one can think their way out of believing in the Bible, they should also be able to understand the false propaganda supporting the absurd claims of the Holocaust. The Holocaust myth is no different than the Book of Exodus or Ruth. Just another Jewish fantasy designed to enable them to get over on the goyim and control them.

@skeptic99 You don't know the Christians in the South. Christians don't like the Jews because they killed Jesus. Evidently you haven't been paying attention. ☺

@Sticks48 I beg to differ. I was born in the South. Other than six years spent in the military I have lived my whole life in the South. I was indoctrinated in a Fundamentalist Baptist church. I know these people VERY well. Many are my family members.

There are few Jews living in the South; as a result, most Southern whites have no personal experience with Jews. The only stuff they think they know about Jews is what their preachers have told them from the Bible. They assume that the ancient Hebrews are just like the Jews living today in the US and Israel. None of these people blame the Jews for Jesus' death. Listen to what preachers like John Hagee are saying. They are indoctrinating southern and mid-western whites into Christian Zionism, which is why the Republican Party is so strongly pro-Israel in its foreign policy. Jerry Falwell spent fifty years indoctrinating his followers to be philo-Semites. Virtually all Evangelicals are like this. Sorry, Sticks, but you are decades behind the times. You believe in a stereotype that disappeared fifty years ago.

@skeptic99. I know what l see and what l hear.

@Sticks48 Do you live in the South, Sticks? I do. I grew up listening to Jerry Falwell. I know what these people are like. A lot of people in the North are familiar with Jews because Jews lie among them. They know them and come to dislike them. There are very few Southern Jews. As I have already pointed out, Southerners think of King David, and Moses and all the stories of the Old Testament when they think of Jews. It's all they have to go on. Southern and Mid-Western Evangelicals have no reason to dislike Jews because they have no personal experience with them.

@skeptic99 So, why do you dislike them? Your figures lie almost as much as you do. Please, go back to whatever fundie hole you crawled out of. This is not a matter of "looking at the evidence" so much as it is selective cherry picking of certain facts to promote your story. I still haven't heard you address the many US GI's that witnessed & liberated the camps. I have spoken to survivors, seen their tattoos, heard the anguish in their voices as they mourned lost family. You demean them & try to lessen the horror that was WWII & fascism! I can see why you voted for tRump, & I think you are disingenuous on your profile page as to why. I think you are birds of a feather!

Dachau was built before the war ever started. It was a prison where political prisoners, opponents of the Nazis, were sent. Communists, extreme liberals, Jews and other anti-Nazi activists were sent to Dachau. IT WAS NOT A DEATH CAMP. Proponents of the Holocaust now admit there were NO DEATH CAMPS ever located inside Germany. Proponents say the death camps were mostly located in Poland, which interestingly fell behind the Iron Curtain after the war so for decades it was impossible to go to any of the sites if you were from the West. Actually, the claimed death camps, like Auschwitz, were actually industrial work camps for the purpose of using slave labor (and local civilian labor) to produce goods for the war and the German military. This is why there were so many survivors from Auschwitz, such as both Elie Wiesel and his sister who were housed at two different "death camps," yet both of them survived both claimed death camps. Actually there were many thousands of survivors from these claimed factories of death. If six million Jews were actually gassed at these camps, then the state of Israel would not exist today, nor would there be so many Jews living in the US and Britain today.

Getting back to Dachau, it's worth noting that the only mass killings that ever took place there was when the US Army took the SS guards at the camp who had surrendered to the Americans and lined them up and machine-gunned them. Those who did not die immediately from the mass shootings were beaten to death with shovels by the Jewish inmates, including their guard dog. This actually happened. A book has been written about the liberation of Dachau and the mass killing of the German guards: "Dachau, Hour of the Avenger."[amazon.com]

"Alt truth" (a.k.a., a LIE).

Hitler greatly admired what European immigrants did in North America, clearing out an inferior people and taking their land to build a great new nation. The history of the US was the inspiration for most of his policies for Germany.

@skeptic99 Is that Hitler speaking or is that you speaking?

@Piece2YourPuzzle

It's true and known fact that Adolf Hitler studied many of the United States’ policies implemented against American Indian people, as models for how he would deal with Jewish people.

@Castlepaloma That's not my contention. Maybe you didn't "catch" the meaning of his words of which I replied. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

@Piece2YourPuzzle
I hope you are wrong, about what skeptic meant.

@CallMeDave I probably am. I shouldn't read into that statement like I did. I would ask him if he meant anything by it, but he doesn't seem to respond. Actually, I did ask him already.

This is typical. All the evidence you claim you have seen -- you have not seen. You have seen pictures of trivial things along with descriptions that suggest other things on a much grander scale. Once you really look at the evidence and engage your brain and ask basic questions, the Holocaust claims quickly fall apart.

@skeptic99 You can say that about most of history.

@PalacinkyPDX I never said it wasn't unique in history. I was just simply responding to the claims that there were "worse" atrocities.

@Piece2YourPuzzle

Yeah, like black salavery and native Americas genocide.

@skeptic99
Your assertion that "the foundational material supporting the holocaust comes from fictional accounts" is patently false and ridiculous. There are the testimonials of the survivors of the concentration camps, as well as those of the soldiers who liberated the camps. These are supported by films that were shot at the time. There are the artifacts, including written records and the camps themselves. The Germans (and Poles, and Hungarians, Armenians, Yuguslavians, and French, Begians, etc) were excellent records-keepers, and their own census data shows there were more than 6 million Jews in Europe before the holocaust.
By the way, to say you believe in climate science and evolutionary biology does not increase your credibility. Scientific facts are not things to be believed or disbelieved. Rather, the supporting evidence is to to be coldly assessed and either accepted or rejected based on its repeatability and logical cohesion. If the evidence stands up to scrutiny, then the conclusion it points to is accepted, always leaving the door open to modification if new evidence is brought to light. Emotion, belief, desire, caprice, and ideology have no place in either assessment of the evidence or analysis of the conclusion.
The emotion with which you write, together with your rejection of voluminous well-documented evidence leads me to suspect that you base your conclusions on ideology (conspiracy theory?) rather than facts. It sounds like you are looking for someone to blame the ills of the world (or your own misfortune?) on, and you have settled on a familiar old trope. Instead of wasting everyone's time with this nonsense, why don't you tell us what is really bothering you?

@Flyingsaucesir Well, Flyingsaucesir, I did not start this thread. HippieChick58 did. So the subject was not bothering me or on my mind. However, HippieChick 58 tossed it out there as a brief statement, a tactic it seems, to diss anyone who is not a conformist on this issue. It reminds me of Christians who say stuff like, "Jesus is REAL. Ain't it that a third of the people don't believe in Him?" I've looked at the evidence presented from both sides of this issue, and honestly, the arguments of the Christians, such as Creationists, are more convincing than those of the Holocaust promoters. Three things are going for the Holocaust story: 1. The story serves the interests of the establishment; 2. which results in massive group think; and 3. in most of the Western nations it is illegal to question any of the claimed truths about the Holocaust. So I get it that the majority of people believe in the Holocaust story. I'm surprised that a third of the people have doubts about it.

Regarding the evidence of the Holocaust, as I've pointed out already, the claims that were once made to support it years ago have been abandoned. Regarding Jewish global population figures over time, all the data I can find comes from Jewish sources, often directly from or cited from places like the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC or other organizations linked with the Holocaust. Data published in periodicals like Time Magazine cite the same sources. Pew Research has some numbers, almost all of which were based upon estimates and upon Jewish sources. One thing I did notice was there really were not that many Jews living in Germany, France and the rest of Western Europe at the start of the war. Most Jews fled Germany during the 1930s before the war started. The overwhelming majority of Europe's Jews lived in Poland, the rest of Eastern Europe and the USSR. The one issue that always sticks in my mind are the thousands and thousands of Jews who SURVIVED the Holocaust, who spent time at Auschwitz and other camps in Eastern Europe and who survived the ordeal and left Europe after the war and came to the US or Israel. If there was a methodical German industry devoted to the industrialized extermination of Jews, it was terribly inefficient.

@skeptic99 very well said. Stand by to be labelled a denyer, racist and nazi for stating some facts. I thought this site was for critical thinkers, maybe I was wrong.

@skeptic99, @TheMiddleWay I don't believe anyone is denying atrocities happened in the camps, but the scale is the question.

@TheMiddleWay Well, you're right there, a death camp is a death camp regardless of how many died.

Aren't there roomfuls of hair and sh-t?

I remember seeing people with a numbered on their arm as a kid.

I think very few survivors could exist to give testimony anymore. They'd have to have been very children at this point.

@BufftonBeotch I've been to Auschwitz. It's very sobering.

The problem is, the religious nutjobs who deny the Holocaust have likely never been out of their state of birth, much less travelled overseas.

They also support Israel not because of any altruistic streak or kinship with those of the Jewish faith (many of the racists hate Jews as much as non-whites), but simply because Armageddon won't happen (along with the Rapture) unless and until Israel rebuilds Temple Mount.

Hell of a way to run a foreign policy.

True. It was millions of others. Many more millions. Anyone sen as genetically inferior such as Down syndrome or many other things.

The brain washing was so deep that I understand many parents just handed over children deemed inferior to be killed on the spot.

Which is something I can not comprehend. The madness the can seize people's minds.

How can you love an idea of a shrieking madman more than your own child?

And I think Soviet citizens were in equal number to the Jewish people.

Slovaks----Romanians----homosexuals. Lots of others.

I'm afraid you underestimate greatly

This one disputes deniers in regards to Auschwitz and fuel for the ovens etc etc etc:

[phdn.org]

[hdot.org]

All the ovens were obviously for the Germans to be good hosts and have enough space to cook all those hamburgers and filet mignon steaks that they offered their guests with their 5 star accommodation.

@Piece2YourPuzzle what the ovens were used for is not in dispute, just the scale of the cremations. I believe it takes around 5 hours per corpse so one oven can only dispose of a maximum 5 corpses per day. There would have to be 657 ovens running continuously, 24/7/365 for 5 years to cremate 6m corpses. Even if half were buried, I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that it's open to question. Also could a country at war dedicate such fuel resources for body disposal?

@smoyle I don't deny that Nazi ideology had a goal of pushing a large percentage of the population of Poland and the lands east of it off that land, by whatever means could be employed. We are talking about an area where most of the world's Jews lived in the Pale of Settlement. I've done additional reading on the subject. Nazi SS units no doubt rounded up Jews in rural villages and shot them where they found them. The problem was that the majority of Jews lived in Polish cities. After the German conquest of the western half of Poland these urban Jews were pushed into confined ghettos. Many died of disease and starvation before they were ever removed. Others were sent to work camps, and some were probably sent to small temporary camps to be liquidated. How many people were killed this way is impossible to say with certainty. The German SS units probably demolished these sites before leaving the area. Then the area fell under the control of the Soviet Union for the next fifty years. Auschwitz was such a large facility that it remained largely intact; however, much of what we see in many of these camps was rebuilt later by the Soviets or the Polish government. There is a high likelihood that any crematory ovens or gas chambers one might visit today did not exist in 1943 and were not built by the Nazis. These places are much like museums are today. They represent recreations and approximations of what might have been used by the Nazis. There is simply so much about the Holocaust that we do not know. We may think we know, but finding the evidence to prove it 75 years later is the problem.

My issue with the Holocaust is that regardless of the actual extent of the killing, it has been packaged and marketed so shamelessly in recent decades. There have been obvious purposes to this. One is to provide a justification for Zionism and an excuse for Jews today doing similar things to Palestinians that Nazis did to Jews 75 years ago. The Holocaust industry is designed to create great sympathy for Jews from Americans and Europeans. And by using guilt it has been used to extort billions of dollars in reparations from Germany that have gone to the state of Israel and to millions of individual Jews. The Holocaust also has been used as a justification for massive financial support for Israel from the United States. This marketing of the Holocaust, this Holocaust "hustling" is what I find so offensive. According to Wikipedia ( One-Third of Americans Don't Believe 6 Million Jews Were Murdered During the Holocaust ) six-million Poles died in the war. Eight million Germans died in the war. 20 million Soviets died in the war. The US lost over 400,000 soldiers just in the war in Europe. So even if six million Jews did lose their lives in WW II, they were not the only people who died. But clearly they were the only people who mattered. 20 million dead Soviets don't seem to matter. Eight million dead Germans don't matter. Six million dead Poles don't seem to matter. And there seems to be little anguish about the 400,000 dead US soldiers. There is no thought or remembrance for any of these millions, not to mention the dead in all the other nations of Europe. There is just this focus and obsession on the six-million dead Jews. This is what rubs my fur the wrong way. Everyone else licks their wounds, and the survivors get on with life. Nobody else grand-stands and dramatizes their losses, their injustices, their suffering. But the Holocaust has become the defining event in all of human history for Jews, and they are using it for massive propaganda effect and advantage. Because I know I am clearly being manipulated by the Holocaust, it has generated resentment instead of sympathy. I never like to be played for a fool, and that is the effect the massive Holocaust propaganda campaign has on me... and I suspect on many other people, too. This hand has been greatly over played. That is the real issue with the Holocaust.

@smoyle Everything is answered in the links.

@skeptic99 QUOTE: "There is a high likelihood that any crematory ovens or gas chambers one might visit today did not exist in 1943 and were not built by the Nazis."

What the hell are you talking about?

QUOTE: "My issue with the Holocaust is that regardless of the actual extent of the killing, it has been packaged and marketed so shamelessly in recent decades. There have been obvious purposes to this. One is to provide a justification for Zionism and an excuse for Jews today doing similar things to Palestinians that Nazis did to Jews 75 years ago."

Regardless of the actual extent of the killing? Isn't that most of your argument? Lol

Packaged and marketed so shamelessly? Wow! Jews don't need an excuse to do what they do to Palestinians. They would do it regardless. Besides, they haven't murdered 6 million Palestinians in death camps. Although I do find both sides pretty disturbing with what is going on in the Middle East. I don't know which side is worse or who is more to blame though. It's not that simple.

How can anyone take your word for anything when you get simple dates of when Auschwitz was built and opened wrong? Denying there were any gas chambers or crematory ovens back in the 1940s and that the Germans didn't have them built is delusional. MOST OF THE WORLD has agreed these things happened and have verified them!!!

QUOTE: "The Holocaust industry is designed to create great sympathy for Jews from Americans and Europeans. And by using guilt it has been used to extort billions of dollars in reparations from Germany that have gone to the state of Israel and to millions of individual Jews. The Holocaust also has been used as a justification for massive financial support for Israel from the United States."

MASSIVE financial support from the U.S.? The U.S. gives Israel about $4-8b a year if I remember correctly, but Israel buys American goods and services. The U.S. wipes their ass with that amount of money compared to the total military and social programs budget we have. Reparations from Germany last as long as the last survivor. I think it's fair. Native Americans have also been paid reparations. Maybe there should also even be a one time reparation payment to African Americans. I'm not sure as I don't know the subject much deeper than an initial reading and analysis.

They also have military friggin' parades to remember the Soviet soldiers that died fighting the Nazis. I don't know where you get the Jews are the only ones that mattered in this issue. American soldiers are praised ad-nauseum in America. There are also remembrances and memorials for the Poles who lost their lives.

You are free to have your opinions though.

@smoyle they gassed people, and cremated the bodies by the hundreds at a time. I knew people who survived dachau.

@Judyt00 How did they cremate hundreds of bodies at a time? I don't think it's possible. Show me any evidence of a device that could do this.

@smoyle How about you start with the links I provided. You obviously don't care about "evidence" now do you?

@Piece2YourPuzzle OK, firstly let me reiterate my position, I am not a denier but I do question the numbers claimed. Up until now, nobody has shown any conclusive proof of these numbers. For the record, I don't count first hand reports of survivors necessarily as proof. The reason being, imagine the hell it was in those camps, how could you possibly come out with any accurate information. All I have seen is "He says this" or "They heard that". What makes it worse are false claims by people ignorant of the facts (like me) trying to enforce their beliefs of what happened (there's a term for that which escapes me for now). So I've read some (not all) of your links and there is the one letter from the oven manufacturer which indicates the numbers might be correct, so this would seem to be the evidence I asked for, you are the only person to supply ANY evidence. However, I'm not going to say "I read it on the internet so it must be true". I'm not going to research into this subject any further so you have the benefit of the doubt (and you have pried open a crack in my mind that it might have been possible which I will be mindful of if I ever get into this subject again).

@smoyle If you read about it and know what it says in the evidence I provided then why would you ask Judyt00 for evidence like you had none? Even the Nazis reported putting anywhere from 1 to 8 bodies in an oven at a time, but normally around 4 to 5 at a time. This is all depending on the size of the bodies including women, children, and men. They also had open fire pits outside. I don't know why this is so hard to understand for deniers. Denier is a broad term that includes outright deniers AND people who severely underestimate the numbers reported.

@Piece2YourPuzzle I replied to her post before I followed your links.

As for "Denier is a broad term that includes outright deniers AND people who severely underestimate the numbers reported" - who the hell are you to tell me what I deny and don't deny? A denier is someone who denies something - what ever that thing is and I don't deny a great many people were murdered, I don't think anybody does. You can't just re define a word because you want to insult those who question the numbers.

@smoyle So you replied to other comments and kept asking for evidence before you looked at my links presenting evidence A WEEK AGO? Lol

The term holocaust denier wasn't penned by ME, and it wasn't penned yesterday either. So your gripe about the definition isn't with me. Do you read comments at all? You are claiming that you don't think anybody denies that a "great many people were murdered", yet the person you have been conversing with claims he only thinks 250,000 - 600,000 Jews were murdered during WWII. Is that qualified as "anybody", and does that qualify as "a great many people"?

Like I said, the definition of holocaust denier isn't MY definition:

[slate.com]

[holocaustremembrance.com]

[adl.org]

[ushmm.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]

[rationalwiki.org]

[thelocal.de]

Maybe I'll come back in about a week when you read the definition in those links lol

@Piece2YourPuzzle Whatever dude, whatever. This conversation is going nowhere, I'm out.