I listen to the conservatives on here and what they often think of liberals. Here are some open thoughts shared:
Since being on this website, I see how liberals and conservative talk about each other, and it's almost always hateful and demeaning. I'm not that old, but I do remember the time when the two sides could get along and played well with each other. Certainly not like today. The rhetoric is just plain mean and vindictive on both sides of the table.
Whatever side you fall, do you see this as a problem with your group?
Yes we love freedom of speech but that does not mean that we are required to listen politely to people we disagree with. People are free to say whatever they wish but if someone is spewing hate I will certainly refuse to listen or even use my own freedom of speech to shut him/her down.
Yes we have an agenda. Our agenda is progress. Many of us are pretty ignorant toward guns because we are not gun enthusiasts but we do typically have some knowledge of statistics. We know that keeping a gun in the home increases the likelihood of being killed by said gun. We know that more guns mean more danger of being killed by a gun. Some of us even own guns and do know a thing or two about the specifics. I've got a few shotguns and a muzzleloader for hunting and just for fun. I have no problem with people having these sorts of guns. Its random people having easy access to the military style guns that I take issue with.
Yes many liberals can be quite elitist and smug. We tend to be better educated and so we think we know best. But that's no excuse for being intolerant and demeaning to others. This attribute of many liberal minded people pisses me off too. We need to communicate and be friendly with people who think differently rather than put them down.
I think you are correct that the partisan divide is really heating up and people are not being civil. This is the fault of both sides but I would certainly say that the blame falls far more heavily on the right. I remember the disgraceful way that conservatives treated President Obama and I don't think our smugness and elitism can compare with the hate that the right wing spews toward immigrants, homosexuals, socialists, and anyone who is not a "real American".
I think liverals are more tolerant than conservatives, simply based on the fact tht liberals tend to view things in a full spectrum, while conservatives tend to think mostly in terms of black and white or a very limited spectrum at best.
Conservatives tend to view liberals as "sumg" simply because liverals trot out facts to support their positions, which conservatives mostly cant' do because actaul facts seldom support their positions, which embarasses them and makes them feel like liberals are trying to "shame" them, and so they ddefend by sayign the liverals are elite and smug rather than acknowledging that thay are most factural and better educated.
As for fun control and gun laws, my expeerience has been that most conservatives dont' know what the gun laws are, and that they are mistaken in mos tinstances. Liberal want to ban military types of assault weapons, and they try to tell me that only fuilly automitic guns are actually assault wepons, until I point out that the AR-15 was marketed as a military type "assault" weaon by the manufacturer to civilians. They claim they have a 2nd amend right to own an AR-15, until i point out tht Federal courts have ruled that militry type assault weapons are not protected under the second amendment. It seem smost conservative "knowledge" is only propoganda and wishful thinking.
Consrvatives get really ypset when you point out that they are mistaken, and then their defense is that although liberals say they are in facor of free speech, they try to shut down the opposition.
The bottom liek is that liberals (I actually prefer the label of "progressives" ) have an ideology based more in fct than consevatives. Thus when a news outlet reports the facts, conservative claim the story has a "liberal bias", when in fact it only has a factual bias. I tis just that as i said liberal ideology is based more on facts than the conservative ideology.
I do see a few and will call them out on my side, however I don't believe being intolerant of intolerance is hypocritical. I don't believe racist nazi scum get to play the victim of intolerance because we won't just let them preach their genocidal hate speech. It isn't a matter of a difference of opinion. If they were saying they don't like chocolate ice cream fuck yeah I'd defend to the death their right to openly dislike chocolate ice cream but no, not for "I think all muslims should die, gay people should be tortured, and liberals burned at the stake" that's not an opinion and not tolerating it does NOT make one intolerable
Ok, so I've seen this pattern, but I was raised by Republicans, and the level of frustration to get them to see the perspective on social issues, such as my LGBT community is beyond exhausting. There are respectful ways to have civil discussions but when you have an issue you're passionate about people get extra sensitive, especially when long thought out responses are met with dismissive or flat out insulting ones. Do we tend to suffer from a pretentious Victim culture? In a way. But we also make the effort to "check our privilege" In the Trans community, some of us can be brutal over what would amount to almost nothing elsewhere. Almost like the passion that is reserved for religion is channeled into politics. Where it is not only important so we can claim a moral high ground, but also to quash descent and utterly destroy those that disagree, the same can be said of conservatives ( in my experience I see more of this on the topic of abortion) Snowflake, Liberal, Libtard... These are words we hear that signal not only bias but a resistance ANY valid point we made. That the person is not willing to see it from our perspective. My dad listens to Rush Limbaugh, my brother to Alex Jones, the language is aggressively combative and designed to incite anger. It doesn't help. Separating the financial policy from the social issues could go a long way in fixing this. But if you replace "Liberal" with any demographic it comes of bigotry, there is no left-wing equivalent where we use your political party as a dirty word. I live in the south and admitting I was gay was easier than admiting I was a liberal, I watched George Bush's state of the union where he pushed the Defense if Marriage Act with no clue on how it would come to effect me when I was older. Ted Cruz wants me to use only my bathroom at home because I'm trans ( even though the testosterone blocker I take also makes me pee often, this would cut me off from participating in everyday life, and the men's room is an ass kicking waiting to happen.
When most conservatives have no intelligent response, they call liberals "elitist" and start calling names... Pretty similar to religious folk, that's why most conservatives are also theists. They use the same tactics for both religious and political debates.
Bullet point 1: Do they mean, liberals disagree and conservatives don't want anyone to disagree with them on an opinion? When conservatives don't agree with my OPINION, I don't refuse to listen or try to shut down their OPINION. There is a difference between OPINION and FACT. There are no such things as "Alternative Facts".
Bullet point 2: I only use verifiable facts. I don't know everything about guns, but I'm a liberal that supports the 2nd Amendment for people in rural areas that need protection because police response out there is probably longer than in a city. I'm not sure 9 million people in NY walking around with guns is a good idea though. I also support people who hunt for FOOD to feed their family. It's silly to not have regulations on guns though. Really silly.
Bullet point 3: I actually think I'm a logical person and once again only use verifiable facts. When I don't then it's my opinion or I admit that I don't know or that what I'm about to say is speculation.
There are people on both sides who exhibit these things that you mention. I don't like to paint all of either side with a wide brush although both groups do seem to exhibit certain characteristics as a whole. One side thinks the same of the other. In general, neither side really respects the other because of the opposite ideoligical views we both have.
Is not liking groups or standing up against groups that hate people who are LGBT etc. being bigoted? No, it's not. Some conservatives believe that when liberals stand up to hate like that that it makes them bigoted. No.
You can think you're smarter, but if you don't provide verifiable proof then you are just stating OPINION. Opinions in and of themselves are fine.......if they don't conflict with the TRUTH. You can't fake FACTS! Facts are not intolerant.
I've been on both sides in my lifetime and became liberal for certain about the time I became atheist. Funny thing is, I read most of what you are saying and I thought immediately of the modern GOP. They are the ones I see without valid arguments. Mention Trumpty Dumpty and they change the subject into anything else. One did this with me once and talked about Obama and AIG. WTF? I didn't get it at all.
Guns, gun types, ammo, etc. It's true that liberals don't know a lot about them. It might be true that an AR-15 is not an assault weapon also, but what does this mean? That we should give up and say it is OK to shoot our school children. The point you are missing is that nobody wants to take your guns. Liberals don't even want new gun laws. What we want it to bring back some of the older ones with proper gun registration and regulation. Maybe a teen would be less likely to buy a gun at a shop and go kill school children. Some want to argue that knives and rocks could kill people but we are not trying to do anything about them. No, the current issue was brought on by school shootings and not by knives and rocks.
This isn't a debate and I don't want to debate. I try to deal with facts on the issues at hand. Like you I remember when both sides of the political spectrum got along well. It would be nice to see that happen again.
Anyone that knows me knows that I don't like Trump and I think he is a liar, a bigot, and a conman. I'm being mild here with my feelings for him. On the other hand, John McCain is a Patriot and a war hero. Trump could never be equal to McCain and everyone knows it.
No.You are making too many assumptions. I'll rebuke them. I am a proud liberal.
I certainly don’t agree with either side being hateful or demeaning to the other. That just shows lack of respect and just quite childish.
I find that both sides have the ability to be all the things u have stated above.
Smug, ill informed and the other numerous things U mentioned.
Instead it becomes a power struggle. Much like children on a play ground. They have meaning both views have poor communication skills. And a very low ability to actively listen.
Because they are so interested in being heard and being right.
It becomes a shouting match or name calling match.
Which serves no one.
Personally I feel it’s the me me me generation so caught up in their own self righteousness.
And by generational I’m talking about all generations not just one.
So much has changed in the past 50 years as far as mutual respect and curtesy. We use to have statemen. We now have childish immature selfish self centered people.
That have lost all decorum.
Instead of thinking before they speak they just as my dad use to say let their mouth overload their ass.
So many opportunities are missed because of just plain ignorance on both sides.
So there can’t be any coming of compromise.
And a lot just comes from having anclosed mind and the inability to even try and see where the other person is coming from.
We live in a world
Of closed minds and selfish self centered people.
The words of United we stand divided we fall has a lot of truth to it. It’s fine to have certain beliefs and ideas. But so much has come down to not what is in the best interest of the many but what most serves the individual.
I consider myself to be a liberal in most respects but just like anything else u choose how U treat others.
And we have just lost the ability to say and know at times we can agree to disagree.
I think I equate it with wisdom. And it seems from my experiences that theirnis very little of that going around anymore.
I am an Atheist and a Liberal, and I strive to live my life in accordance with the Golden Rule. In my opinion, I do this much more than Conservatives do.
I would also like to point out that Confucius was espousing the Golden Rule in 500 B.C., and I often wonder why he doesn't get the credit, instead of the other guy.
I see the same thing on the news shows, they seem to holler and shout at each other a lot more than they used to. I think the shitty way Trump talks about everything is rubbing off on all of us. All though I think Bush jr started the divide in this country with his with us or against us crap>
I see much less tolerance from the right. I agree both sides tend to listen to those who echo what they believe, but for instance I work with mostly right men. They absolutely hate what they call "political correctness", but let someone accidentally say Happy Holidays around the winter holidays, instead of Merry Christmas, and they have a hissy fit.
I remember when you could know someone for years, and never know what their political leanings were. I don't know what happened, but it seemed to start when Clinton became president. The right went absolutely nuts, and tried from day one to pin something on him, and it's gotten worse ever since.
I understand what you mean. I avoid these sort of analysis or discussion. Labels like liberal or conservative or any other label for that matter just serve to short-cut the dialog straight to conclusion. Everything after the label becomes colored by that defining label. This makes any real understanding or opportunity for change near impossible. Of course, in my mind it’s a bit short sighted to reduce anyone to a two-dimensional label. There are lots of fun productive ways to avoid the “Label” downfall, but in all situations, you must first be honestly willing to be influenced. This is a hard leap for many to make.
Also "consevative" is a relative term. I am now slightly left of center in Australia. 20 years ago I was right of center but the center lurched right. In the US I'd be classed as a screaming leftist pinko. Which by the evidence is an innacurate characterisation of both conservatism, liberalism (in most western countries this IS conservatism) and, socialism.
To address your points:
Liberals try to shut down PoV with which they disagree.
Watching this it is usually right wing snowflakes viewing traditional disagreement as censorship of their views. "Shutting down", with the sad exception of the no-platforming movement, seems to be any sort of disagreement at all.
Liberals don't have valid arguments.
I generally find this one used when the basic premises of the "conservative" argument are complete shit. Premise: if you don't know everything (or most things) about weaponry your opinion on allowing rapid fire weapons, whether they be auto or semi-auto, can't be valid. This is little more than tone or grammar trolling. The equivalent being "because you use the incorrect participle in your third sentence your whole argument is invalid." Many functioning democracies have efective gun laws which allow for both reasonable firearm use and MANY fewer massacres per head of population. To try to invalidate this argument simply because its proponent is unable to point out the difference between 308 cal and 7.62mm is an argument in deeply bad faith. Something most people, liberal or conservative, find irritating. You might see how this contributes to the ill feeling you notice.
Additionally to this point "marching about with happy little signs yelling for more laws," is a fairly vicious ad hom, another thing likely to rile folk, on a group of people already pissed off that their friends, family and offspring are being routinely shot. Can you see why they may react negatively?
Liberals are smug and elitist.
They often come across as such because consevative premises, not arguments but the basis for their arguments, do not hold water. It's difficult to communicate complexity when you interlocutor refuses to move beyond simplistic sylogisms. A fact our previous PM, Tony Abbott, used to very good effect in his campaigning. Sadly it's a truely shit way to run a country.
The gun debate is an excellent example of this. As far as I can make out the sylogism at the base goes "I should be allowed any gun I want because the constitution contains one phrase which, when read sufficiently out of context, might say that I can." The notion that this is an amendment to law, and therefore subject to further amendment as social and technological conditions change, is excluded as this document is teated as holy writ.
Further simplistic logic, ignoring the actual real-world evidence, leads to the argument that anyone opposed to open slather gun ownership must hate freedom, democracy, and the USA. Straw man and Ad hom in one nasty package. Can you see why that might piss people off? Also why "Liberal" gun control arguments seem to make no sense? They don't merely disagree with your arguments, they weigh your premises against the evidence and find them wanting.
Liberal Phil, here.
I often find that we liberals can become the things we say we hate. We belittle people. We fail to consider other views. We abhor compromise.
Of course that is a generalization. Like all Texans fuck chickens. Not true. Mostly.
I do hate when groups don't allow other views, such as has happened Berkley. I think that is totally wrong.
An agenda. Hmmm. Maybe. Doesn't everyone have an agenda? Is it always based on facts, not perceptions? Of course not.
Smug assholes. Gee, I know Liberals and Conservatives who fit that description.
So in conclusion: Us good. Them bad. And God is on OUR side!
I’ve noticed unhelpful intolerance on the left and on the right. I’ve lived in liberal urban centers and small rural towns, which has allowed me to genuinely befriend people on both sides. I take someone’s political opinion much more seriously once I know they love someone from either side. Also, keep in mind if your media and news comes only from one side of politics, you will only see the strawman version of the opposition’s arguments.
I think we need to get to a point culturally where it’s a social faux pas to dogmatically align yourself with either side of the political spectrum. Of course we all have our natural tendency toward one side (and that’s ok) but it’s foolhardy to think that one philosophy is always right. Sometimes it’s good to change. Sometimes it’s good to conserve. When asked if I’m a republican or democrat I always answer that I’m a pragmatist.
Liberals tend to be, way too tolerant and conservatives tend to be, way too intolerant. I'm a bleeding heart liberal myself, but I listen to what conservative people have to say, and then I really try and look to see if they have a point. I never get this from them, but that might be impossible. Some people get fixed to a position and refuse to let go of it no matter how wrong it is.