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That's me in the red shirt at a radio debate. There was a Jew, Muslim, Christian and me the strong atheist. On my left is Rev. Terry Jones who claimed to be the second most wanted man in all Islam, after Salmon Rushdie. He made national headlines by burning a Koran on the steps of his church in Tallahassee.

At the end of the session I made the point that religion cheapens life. If one believes when they die they go to heaven leaving this vale of tears is not such a big deal. They didn't like that remark at all and even the audience pitched in with some jeers and boos.

So I'd like some other opinions. To my mind if you believe you're going to be with God this life isn't so valuable. But for me, dying means we won't exist anymore so this life is all we have and we must take care of it.

Aristippus 6 May 21
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23 comments

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5

It's a pointless argument because neither side will concede the benefits of the other. I think atheism is better but I'm not sure if it makes life richer. Delusional people can be very happy within their delusion.
And your link doesn't work for me.

5

That Terry Jones certainly is an idiot. He obviously has no clue that Muslims believe in the same god as christians do.

Yes! Muslims are just as full of shit as Christian

There's a lot of ill will toward them because of the terrorism.

@Aristippus Yes, there is, but they are happy to look the other way when their own government goes into other countries to terrorise the population.

3

This may be why you never hear about Atheist Suicide Bombers.

Absolutely. That's why the military encourages soldiers to be religious. An old vet friend of mine told me they didn't twist your arm but you had a choice: either go to chapel or do KP for the afternoon -- that's kitchen work like peeling potatoes.

@Aristippus Kings and Popes came to an agreement a long time ago, one hand washes the other.

@Aristippus No choice!

3

I had to click on your profile to see you in your red shirt.

Me too

Thanks, if you like my writing check out Richard Goscicki on Kindle. My first book "Mirror Reversal" got some neat reviews and the Preface was written by Phil Zimbardo, the famous social psychologist. Check out his stuff on Youtube if the subject interests you

2

I'm sure the religious value their lives as much as I do. They mourn their dead as well because they're no longer able to be a part of their day-to-day lives.

My Christian friends are devastated that I am an atheist and we won't see each other in heaven. The funny thing is that I have more "morals", help more in my community, and am less judgemental than they are (except for this statement!).

When I ask exactly how they know they're getting to heaven, they say it's up to their God. I think I'd like to know EXACTLY how I'm going to see this guy if I'm spending my whole life trying to spend eternity with him.

2

The link isn't working but none the less I can imagine! I would also suggest to use some punctuation in the main question you are trying to ask. A moron who burns the 'book' of another moron is another proof of Darwins work of the 'undeveloped creatures' they are!

Yes it did force me to look up Rev Terry Jones on Wiki

@Mcflewster My first thought was, "Terry Jones from Monty Python is second most wanted after Salman Rushdie??"

@Paul4747 He was a nice guy. I thought he'd be a little indegnant of me as he was to the imam. Here's a line from the latter: "Mean and disrespectful of women? we don't make prostitures and porn stars out to them. We, not you, treat them with love and respect. And we protect them in our homes."

@Paul4747 Me too!

2

Why do I see three photos of myself when I click on the link?

me too

Awfully sorry. My computer skills are terrible. With all my education and teaching expericence I feel like an illeterate when it comes to computers. It's my profile picture so try that. It's an interesting picuture.

2

If a person believes they will be rewarded with happiness ever after, in a make believe heaven, in the presence of God, and that keeps them living what they consider to be a "good life" as their ticket into heaven, then it might make them feel their life is enriched with that belief, as long as they believe. They wouldn't like to think they had lived a good life "for no reason" as it would be worthless, since they are mostly being good for the grace of God. They don't understand the worth of being good for goodness sake.

So. on the other hand, if an atheist, agnostic, humanist or other freethinker believes they will be rewarded for their good deeds, by living a good life here on earth, simply by their own self esteem and the high regard, trust and love from the people who interact with them, and that they might be influencing goodness in others to carry on after their death, that is a reward they can see and feel in real time, no waiting.

To be loved for being a good person NOW is pretty rich, instead of waiting for some far off reward in myth-land seems to be the better bet, to me anyway, regardless of whether there is or isn't a god or heaven.

I believe that the assumption sets on both sides don't bear much scrutiny. On the religious side, there is no way to prove the existence of heaven and eternal joy. On the atheist side, it is hard to draw a strong correlation between doing good deeds and being justly rewarded here. Life is unfair and there is no law of physics that applies to goodness of action and richness of reward. So we choose to be good because it is perhaps good for our psyche but nothing more.

Excellent post, Julie. I certainly agree. I'm a fan of Cicero, the Roman orator and philosopher. Like me he was an Epicurean and lover of this life. He didn't believe in a soul and said the only "soul" we have resides in the memory of those who knew us and future humans.

Here's a little tidbit from a friend of mine who's into haiki. He's a friend, Dan Dana, Ph.D and fellow atheist writer. He wrote a few reviews for me: Richard Goscicki on Kindle.

file:///C:/Users/Chari%20&%20Steve/Desktop/early%20female.pdf

Looking at the early hominid female, a pretty realistic reconstruction, I think we can see that humans were no routine animals. Humans look they have a spiritural nature, although it's been repressed by social conditions. I wrote a book on this called "Saving Gaia", about how religion, big business and governemnt have kept humanity in a mental cage.

[amazon.com]

Notice the cover says Rich Goss instead of Rich Goscicki. My son who has the same name didn't want to be associated with a atheist so I had to use an alias.

2

I imagine sharing such a sentiment would go over as well with a theist audience as being told as atheists we can't have objective morals or meaning in our lives. We aren't in any position to know better than the other person himself what their experience can or cannot be. It is pretty much a dick move to make such pronouncements and can only undercut ones credibility.

2

Religious people do not value life, they value what comes after. The problem is, nothing comes after. I have always hated that I will not be able to say to the religious, after their deaths, "I told you so". They will die never knowing how wrong and hateful they were. Ticks me off, lol.

Excellent, I feel the same way. They'll never know how gullible and cowardly they were.

1

I'm right there with you.

1

As the old saying goes, "Everybody believes in heaven, but nobody wants to die." You get my vote.

1

That’s just not the way religious people think. If I believe in a god, when someone died I’d be happy because then they’d be in heaven. But religious people grieve just as much as an atheist does.

That does seem incongruous. You'd think they'd be celebrating.

1

We only get one go at life. That makes it precious.

What about when you die. Religious people believe this life is only a test of faith.

@Aristippus A Hindu friend of mine, seeing me struggle with grief, gave me her copy of the Bhagavad Gita, in English. Her point was that, if you believe in any form of life before or after death, then the trials and tribulations of this life can be seen as less significant. The gesture was loving and welcome. Sadly, although I wanted to believe something, it didn’t work for me.

1

Why do you think they have such a hold on 'the sanctity of life' and made suicide a sin! Who wants to stick around in pain here when paradise awaits.

The more sheep in the field the more powerful the sheapard. Every culture wants more members.

1

I agree with that hypothesis. I have always felt that religion is a cop out. Religious people are assuaging their guilt by ignoring responsibilities of this life. They think if they play the piety game it gives them a free ticket to what they call "heaven". If they pay enough they can lie,cheat, steal and treat others like shit. I think it can be argued that even the most seemingly altruistic act could be considered selfish because it gives the person who performs the act a comforting feeling of satisfaction. That is not to say that it is wrong or bad, but just human nature.

Good post, I agree. The "piety game" is real. It's all a game.

1

You are correct. 🙂

1

as if the choices you list are the only possibilities?

1

No pic

Click on profile picture

@Lorajay @Aristippus That's ridiculous. It's a post for people who are familiar with his profile. Nowhere does he elude to where the pic is. I guess downloading it would've been too much trouble but he posted the thing twice. Organized Atheism is almost as stupid as organized religion.

1

I agree with your analysis however many many christians who are supposedly strong believers dread dying and that never made sense to me..

Right on! Billy Graham loved wealth more than heaven and lived into his 90s.

0

I think they may have been booing you calling a lived life as "a vale of tears".

But I generally agree with the idea that it makes no sense to think theres an infinitely better existence than life itself and all you have to do is to "die in the right way". In fact I use it to show how hypocritical the belief is. Because if believers truly truly believed in a heaven, they would be more careless and take the riskiest most dangerous hobbies or work just so they have a higher probability to get in to heaven quicker. They literally wouldn't care about dying regardless of how happy they were. If God wants them alive longer they would survive by divine will.

But you don't see that behavior amongst believers, which means deep down they must not believe in heaven that strongly. That they care more about life than they do about being in heaven with God is a strong indication that they don't truly believe.

Tell that to Billy Graham's ministry. He lived 'til 100.

0

You Red Devil!👹

0

That’s pretty amazing. I thought Terry Jones died this past January.

He's all right. Check him out on Wikepedia.

@Aristippus I’d did. He dead.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

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