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I'd like to know if others in this forum agree with me on this.

Throughout history the Catholic Church has gotten away with murder. Even much worse, it's gotten away with unspeakable atrocities culminating in the Spanish Inquisition. The book Malleus Maleficarum states the proper way to torture witches by the thousands. One researcher, Charles Lea, tells about how he in the year 1900 was blocked from inspecting historical records at the Vatican Library by officials.

These images of an auto da fe, (statement of faith) shows the horror of the Inquisition. The boss at the top of the reviewing stand is none other than St. Dominic, the patron saint of Christopher Columbus. The monster has several cities and even a country named after him.

The history of the church makes the Nazis look like boy scouts.

In spite of this sordid and well documented history the pope is still called "The Holy Father". Left to me, Pope Francis would be kept in solitary confinement with a prayer stool and his holy relics.

So here's my proposal: The Catholic Church should be made to unlock the Vatican underground vaults containing immeasurable treasure, and use the money to alleviate human suffering. They could start with putting Planned Parenthood offices in every neighborhood in African and South American ghettos. The treasure is mostly money the church ripped off from unfortunate widows accused of witchcraft.

To those who disagree I ask: What good is the money doing other than giving high Church officials, the Curia, a false feeling of security?


Aristippus 6 July 31

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There's nothing TO disagree with - but it's like reparations for slavery, isn't it? To whom do 'they' pay the money? No-one is alive who was a victim or a perpetrator. All religions, all nation-states, all previous kingdoms, principalities and robber baronies were the same. So either you have a violent revolution and kill the whole upper class/es off a la France, or a Communist-style revolution where millions die due to the new system not working to feed them for one thing, or you go slowly forward into the next century, gradually righting the wrongs and making equality more legally binding bit by bit. The western world has largely chosen the latter - and yes we have a big hiccup in it right now, but that's due to excesses of capitalism which CAN be fixed as in the progressive countries. The current Pope is so liberal we're mostly amazed they haven't offed him in some dungeon - that they haven't is massive progress.

Perfectly said.

@HannaYou thank you, written in haste and temper!

I'm in for the guillotine. Sometimes class warfare is needed; yet, one can argue that some innocents always get hurt in such upheavals. I know intellectuals who survived the Bangladesh uprising against West Pakistan. They got lucky and when things settled down again, they were welcomed back into the fold because their heritage was Bangladeshi.

@Beowulfsfriend wouldn't progressive taxation and controls on corporations work just as well? Without killing millions of innocents?


The atrocities committed by the RC did not culminate or end with the Inquisition, they are still going on.
The Magdalene Laundries
The Child murders therein
The Irish "Boys homes" hot beds of murder and abuse
The systematic rape and abuse of nuns and orphans in Catholic care
Systematic child abuse and the protection of abusers
The house of the dying in India, where people with curable conditions were left to suffer and die, to uphold the will of god
The funding of homophobic lobbies for homophobic laws and regimes world wide
Selling Indulgences to dictators and drug Lords
The Vatican bank scandals
The turning of a blind eye to the holocaust
The Nazi Concordats
Industrial scale theft

And new horror come to light everyday.
If the RC was any other institution but a religious one everyone higher than the rank of priest would have been in Jail years ago, the wealth of the church seized and returned to it's actual owners and its historical sites re-designated as war crime locations.


Yes the catholic church has done horrible things AND so has every other church and religion. So now what?

...and every other human organization of any description.

All organizations are capable of being used to garner wealth, therefore all organization are usable by those who want wealth alone. No one has ever managed to design an organization which could not be corrupted. But only churches make the claim to be divinely inspired and incorruptable.

@Fernapple What a line they have!LOL


How safe individual rights are...they burned us, when they could.
Ask any Japanese American how secure property rights are.


The primary purpose of the Roman Catholic Church is the perpetuation of the Roman Catholic Church, regardless of all the other claims that it makes. What you suggest is simply not going to happen.


You are more likely to see pigs fly than the Church opening its coffers for Planned Parenthood or any other charity.


You can not have a different past. You can not have a better past. You can only strive to make a better today and a better future.

Too much like the truth, huh. Just sayin.'


Americans of European descent have done much more harm in 200 years than the Catholic Church has done in 2000 ...
Americans killed tens of thousands of Natives; they enslaved and killed tens of thousands of people from Africa, they killed tens of thousands of Vietnamese (just because they were afraid Vietnam could become communist).
Now: how much reparations did the USA pay to the descendants of the Natives, the slaves and the Vietnamese??
And the Germans: we (or our parents or great-parents) have caused so much harm we should be paying reparations for the next 2000 years.

Interesting point. But bare in mind that my idea was based on the fact that the Inquisition was a scam to get unclaimed and unsecured wealth against helpless widows, aka witches.


I believe most religions have a dark history connected to their coming into power. I once heard someone claim that Buddhism was the only religion that didn't have a dark genocidal period or episode in its history (a claim I can't confirm or deny), but just recently, wasn't it Buddhists persecuting Rohingya Muslims in Miranmar driving from their homes to flee the country or face execution?

We can argue which religion is worse in terms of their murder and torture. Catholics certainly have no exemption from these atrocities. The Albigensian Crusade conducted primarily in the South of France at the beginni thing of the 13th century is estimated to have killed at least a million people. The purpise of the Crusade was to eliminate the Cathars which was a rival Christian sect growing in this region of Europe. In the final seige, the papal legate was asked how soldiers should distinguish between Cathars and Catholic Chtistians. The legate answered to kill them all and let God sort out his own.

Imo, the facts of these matters is that humans have treated one another atrociously for eons before religions played a big part. Tribal and clan wars have been conducted long before written histories and primitive people still engage in conflicts that result in the deaths of rival clans. The means of torture and causing pain to humans of rival cultures or rival ideas seems to have no limits. We can also find some possible parallels among animals species. Chimpanzees have been observed "going to war" to expand their territory. Members of rival communities are lucky to survive with their lives and cannibalism has been observed of murdered rivals. I doubt animals have found much use for torture since they most likely find a swift killing of rivals beneficial. Give them time and we are likely to see it develop.


Agree? No.


Now do Islam.


Artistippus, I feel your outrage and anger. The fact that these atrocities were committed in the name of a religious organisation are repugnant.
My problem with this is that we're viewing these actions through the modern lens of society. These practices and worse were common. Between warring parties/cultures they were used to instill fear, or to stamp authority, to ensure that the rebel understood what defiance meant. So these were psycholgical tools, used to suppress the population. Think back to razing of cities by most of the ancient civilsations as an object lesson.
I deplore these historical actions, but the more that we use these as arguments to defeat modern day views, the less relevant our arguments become. Yes, we should and could show how they haven't moved forward since the Dark Ages - that is relevant. To vilify them, or anyone for accepted practice, back in the day, no matter how horrific? To me it smacks not only of hubris but also narrow mindeness.

Pompey Level 5 July 31, 2020

"we're viewing these actions through the modern lens of society. These practices and worse were common"
That is utter rot, the church was on the one hand preaching against the very atrocities they were committing . The practices were common because the church was doing them so much.
The morality of murder, rape, child abuse has NEVER been in question, just because it was made common and tolerated NEVER made it right, especially in an organisation that claimed to be the representative of of the eternal and ultimate divine moral authority on Earth.

@LenHazell53 Sad to say it Len, but murder was a common practice, get rid of the old defeated, as they would be a burden. Rape - too many historical precedents to follow, "droit de seigneur", "primae noctae" and your man is dead, so I'll take what I want - not sure how far back that historical precedent goes, but it's a long way. Child abuse? As much as I hate to say it, numerous civilisations have embraced this, even in the form of barely pubescent girls wed to old men, still a practice sadly, even in the US.
Overall I understand your passion and ire, but let's be clear. These practices were normal in days of yore. The church didn't grow over night. It stole previous religions practices, rituals and sites, making them their own.
This doesn't excuse the church, because they did propagate the practices, so they are guilty.

@LenHazell53 That's right. Where the heck is the Church doctrine of Atonement. In the confessional it's important to atone for sins, but the church can commit terrible atrocities and it's forgotten about. In church they call it "Penance."


Yea, good luck with that.

Meanwhile, if you haven't already watched this, rather sure you will enjoy.


How would you propose those actions be brought to reality?

No sarcasm intended. I'm just hoping for a viable plan.

There is a difference between sarcasm, and hoping for a viable plan ?

@Fernapple Text has no tone.
Just trying to be clear.

I'd like to see, due to public pressure, the pope realize the atrocities committed by his forbears and use to money to do some good in the world. I don't believe in violence, just the urging of Vatican leaders to "do the right thing." The treasures are not doing anybody any good at all as is.

@Aristippus That's a lovely idea. I'd like to see the same, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
The rcc has a long history of turning a blind eye to most atrocities. Theirs, and most others.


I've been saying it for years now . . . #InvadeTheVatican

Mb_Man Level 7 July 31, 2020

You're right about that but other churches have been bad as well. Martin Luther was a rabid anti-semite. Pretty unlikely you'll have any success getting the vatican's money.


Their stance against abortion AND birth control has caused more suffering than all their other crimes combined. We should multiply that times ten. I wish their hell existed since this policy would sent all their faithful straight to it.


Protestant evangelicals are just as bad


because they are tangible things, I would like to start with all the art that was stolen from Jews by the Nazis and the Vatican, of which they were in cahoots. and if someone should say the Vatican is innocent and does not have what I and lots of other Jewish families have said, let them open up their vaults. while the nazis were only around for about 15 years the vatican has been harming Jewish lives for about 1700 years. I do not want to omit other groups who bore the wrath of the Catholic church but no group collectively suffered more at their hands just because of our religion.

My "Pot Stories and Humanist Essays" tells the story of how W. Bush got elected in 2004 against Kerry. W. got into Yale because he was a "legacy student" being the grandson of millionaire Prescott Bush. It's not documented but widely believed that Prescott made the family fortune by buying up Nazi loot. W. had to be the stupidest president and the country is still paying for it by constant involvement in the Middle East.


@Aristippus thank you for that information--very interestin
I would say that trump has eclipsed him as the stupidest president


Your proposal to whom? Good luck with that!

The readers of the forum. Read on to get an idea.

@Aristippus now let me see, you are proposing this idea of yours to a bunch of non believers so that these people somehow influence the vatican curia to change their dogma of 2 millenia? As I said, good luck with that!

@Mofo1953 I'm not so naive to think the idea would work. My main reason for posting it was to elevate consciousness. The unimaginable treasure sitting in underground Vatican vaults does no good for anybody.

@Aristippus sure, but here you're basically preaching to the choir.


So essentially you are talking reparations.
I have to admit I am a little torn on that.
On one hand I do think at least some order of help to worthy causes from the ones who did the wrong doings to people in need.

But the other part of me thinks about. Well, just how far do we go back. Do we Hit up the Moors for what they did to Spain, Italy, etc. for raping, murder etc. Or how about the Angles, Saxons, Norse, Romans etc. for doing the same.

By all means I do agree that the Catholic church has, and still does horrible shit. But there has to be a point where the past is the past, time to move on.
I'm all for hitting them up for what Church is still doing.
I think one way to start is to get rid of that whole tax exempt thing. They should pay taxes like every one else. and put that money to some good use.

Thanks for this well-thought-out reply. Time makes it difficult to judge culpability. Should the current generation of Americans have to pay for the crimes of 200 years ago, vis a vis slavery? I can say, "Moi? I had nothing to do with it."

But the atrocities of the Church is much worse. The sheepish followers should at least admit that terrible crimes were committed. Your point about religions paying taxes is a given. Like George Carlin puts it: TAX THE BASTARDS.


I say we need to tax the churches, they are the wealthiest owners of land in most countries and not taxed.


I have long said the pope should stop telling people to avoid birth control, to distribute it free, and declare it a sin to have more than one child per parent.

But where would all the replacement little catholics come from?


I have seen references to this book "Malleus Maleficarum" several times. Each time it piqued my interest. So I just bought it. I think it will be a good read.

Ode_1 Level 4 Aug 2, 2020

Don't just stop at the Vatican/Catholic Church, go through the entire lot of Religions with a fine-toothed comb instead, after all they ARE ALL hiding secrets that they know would destroy them completely.

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