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I’d like to get members opinions and thoughts and feelings about agnostic theists; of which I am one. I don’t KNOW if an entity was the first cause or if there even was a first cause but the Kalam really makes one think. I have all kinds of doubts due to the problem of evil and the suffering in the world.

tactic8 4 Oct 15

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I'm an atheist. Unless and until there is credible and verifiable evidence to prove the existence of any god, I'm going to continue to live my life without believing in any of them.
Saying, "I don't know", is absurd.

For me, it's no different than saying, "I don't know if unicorns and leprechauns exist, so I'm going to leave the door open for that."
All gods are myths, just like unicorns and leprechauns.
All "holy" books are fiction as well.
All. Of. Them.

Best answer by far.

I love how reasonable you are!!!😘

@LovinLarge Thank you!

@Redheadedgammy You call me "reasonable", all my exes called me "crazy".

@KKGator many think I'm crazy. I would say you are in good company. I repeat. I always agree with your posts as if I wrote them.

@Healthydoc70 Thank you!


Examine the evidence...that is how we evaluate anything prior to concluding whether or not we believe it to be true. In these present times of so called alternative facts, it still holds as true as ever...there is no alternative to facts, alternative facts are fiction at best and downright lies at worst. This has always been true, and after 13.8 billion years of known existence of our universe, there is not one shred of evidence of the existence of a creator. Logic tells me that on laws of probability therefore, that the likelihood of one existing is nil. Evil and suffering are sadly part of the human condition, along with a propensity to believe in a non-existent and wholly manmade god.


Why does one feel the need to create an invisible, imaginary being in order to create the universe? Why is it difficult to understand and accept that Nature and the laws that govern it has the same abilities of creation that any god(s) have? Nature is real, you can experience Nature with all your senses, can observe it, can test it, make predictions based on it. You do not have to imagine it.


Why is this important to you? Maybe try thinking about real things you could do that would improve the actual world we inhabit?

For one would involve actually working where the other is daydreaming.


Many do not share my opinions but I find "agnostic theist" to be an oxymoron. A person is either a believer or they are not. If one ever did believe (as I once did) it is also crazy for others to assert that you must try all the religions before you decide. Why do we want an entity to be a first cause? Equally on this, I do not know if there was a big bang. Having not been there I cannot tell you about noise. For me, Kalam does not make sense as I cannot tell you when the universe began to exist. Nothing written in religious books of any kind help me with this. I'm also not convinced of a "brain in a vat" or simulation arguments. People go out of their way to convince you that ancients had these ideas. It simply is not so. The arguments made it mainstream today as our technology allowed our brain to do progressive thinking on these subject.

So, what is it about and where did we come from? IDK and any person going by the facts alone will have the same answer.


The beginning of wisdom is not knowing . . . . it is understanding just how little you really know. And as Spock once said, logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Spock was so biblical. John 1:1 In the beginning was the logos, the logos was with God and was God.

I sincerely doubt that.
"For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain. If people need religion, ignore them and maybe they will ignore you, and you can go on with your life. It wasn't until I was beginning to do Star Trek that the subject of religion arose. What brought it up was that people were saying that I would have a chaplain on board the Enterprise. I replied, "No, we don't.” Gene Roddenberry

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry


The Kalam Cosmological Argument is magnificent in its absurdity: it makes unwarranted assumptions about the nature of time and the nature of causality.


Fuck that shit!


No, no, no, no and no.

If you don't care, why bother saying anything?

@Storm1752 No there isn't any beginning, no the cause of existence isn't a deity, no infinity is not an impossiblity, no there isn't a cause of a beginning that's isn't there, no there isn't a creator and no there is no God especially a Muslim God. I chose to express a negative. I'm a nonbeliever. I look for no answers. I wasn't here, now I'm here and soon I won't be here again. The universe will be here for a length of time that might as well be forever. It won't matter to any of us.

@barjoe Who knows though, like rally, if there was a God, it's GOD, could mean anything and everything, along with nothing a once. We would never be sure of a real and defiant answer, so it is not important. I'm not really an atheist or a believer. It does not matter and does not exist, why say don't or do believe in a God or whatnot? Personally, I take no title, it's not worth the time, and gives no one the cause to even bother with that worthless thought.


Doubts are good. I think Bertrand Russell said (and I'm paraphrasing) "The wise are full of doubts, the stupid are always sure."

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" []

@anglophone Thank you sir!


You're going to have a hard time getting any support for any Abrahamic religion on this site. If the intentions, contradictions and absolute absurdities of the OT and Quran haven't already convinced you these are man-made religions, you may already be hopelessly delusional.

I was not looking for support for Abrahamic religion but thank you for the input and I think I see that when talking about the Kalam argument people might think as much. I like hearing about the absurdities of the OT. Would you mind pointing me to some of your favorites?

@DangerDave thanks


"Not knowing" and "having doubts" makes you wiser than all the televangelists combined. If you question your beliefs sincerely, examine the evidence rigorously, and then at the end of it, you still hold those beliefs and find they're consistent with the evidence, more power to you. It's those who hold a blind faith in the face of all evidence to the contrary that drive me batshit.

Thank you for the affirmation Paul4747. I think the thing is that social conservatives have painted themselves into a corner and are now in a position where they feel the need to try to prove 70 years of accusations against gays correct. Some say the ship has already sailed on the LGBTQ+/GRSM thing but I think they still want to tell the world not to touch themselves based on a 2000 year old book with contradictions and a baby-killing god. It's enough to make me batshit at times; and that's a fact...or a psychologically constructed label; or both. Thanks again, and I guess I should be happy to consider myself wiser (at times) than the televangelists, as if that says much o_0.


Let me assuage your doubts. Supernatural beings aren't real...ever, under any circumstances. They don't exist and neither do the magical realms they supposedly inhabit. The only thing that keeps them around is the irrational faith of all the people who have talked themselves into believing it by citing bullsh-t like the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

Two useful points to remember:

First, the universe didn't come from nothing, it came from something we can't explain because before the Big Bang, reality as we understand it didn't exist. How can anyone explain pre-reality? That's why theists think they can shoehorn their unproven God into it. Don't let them.

Second, the bottom line of ALL arguments in favor of God is that in order to believe any of them, you have to accept that they're trying to validate the notion that there's an invisible magical superbeing who reigns from his kingdom in the sky. That's fine in a game of D&D or in a movie or a book but otherwise it's just effing ridiculous and should not be taken seriously by anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature.


The whole "first cause" argument is based out of the "argument from incredulity" logical fallacy. You can't imagine the universe existing without a creator (first cause).

So the idea then is to "make up" a first cause. The problem and fallacy of that, is if everything must have a first cause, what caused the first cause, then what caused that, then what caused that .... ad nauseum. It really falls apart when the claim is made "The first cause was without cause." .... well if the first cause could be without cause, then so could the second cause .... and maybe there was never a need for a first cause at all!!!

It just unravels all by itself. It can't stand on it's own merit.

As for "evil" .... good and evil are subjective judgments ...... For example .... Most would consider it "good" if a successful hunter were to share his killed deer with his starving neighbor ..... But few stop to consider how the deer would feel about that.

I agree.
So that means either the universe just spontaneously (poof) came into being out of nothing, OR it's always been here.
I'd bet on the latter


For me the problem does not lie on the characteristics of the deity. It could be the best deity the mind can conjure; that is not the problem. I can come up with the best god in the universe. The problem or flaw is in the believer. The problem is to have a mind that relies in magical thinking and on unproven beings to solve everyday problems. Magical thinking is the problem. It takes us away from reality, it supports flawed reasoning, it arrives to erroneous conclusions, and reduces the logical and moral standing of the bearer.


Does it not strike you as somewhat odd that all of those who believe in a heaven and hell have managed to create one for themselves and nearly everybody around them. If someone believes that there is a heaven or hell which one enters after death then I wonder why they are waiting, surely they should be making all haste to get there. However, they may find as Nietzsche said: "In heaven all the interesting people are missing."


Most of us are free thinkers who dispassionately look at evidence


God, could legit, be anything. A personal favorite, is God is a beach chair, feeling the waves on the unknown made legs of this laid back chair, and loves everything about that experience in a small pocket dimension. For eternity. That God created a chain of random events, then, could have been like, "Nah, water is cool random creation, let's try it out." GONE> God has left the chat.


I think it’s great that you’re considering possibilities. Having given god away with Santa and the Tooth Fairy as mythical, it worries me that people still think that a reasonable/ good all powerful being could allow this level of inhumanity in the world. At best such a being would be a bit sadistic, from my point of view.
All the best with making sense of it, from your view point.


agnostic theists - sounds contradictory to me. These days people come up with all kinds of questionable composite positions. I myself as an atheist prefer to focus on creating a religion free secular world based on science, reason and social and economic justice, even if I won't live to see it.

I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist. I see agnostic theist as the other side of the coin.

I am an atheist because I absolutely do not believe any gods exist, either inside or outside of our universe. There is simply no need to insert one.

I am agnostic because I accept that it is something that cannot be known (at least when it comes to some generic, creator, being that we would call a god). I cannot say "there is no god" because it will then be upon me to prove it...and I simply cannot do that--no one can. I can only provide evidence against the existence of specific gods--the Abrahamic god, for instance.

An agnostic theist is saying that they cannot say that they KNOW that there is a god (because just as I cannot KNOW there isn't, they cannot KNOW there is). But they believe there is, or most likely is, some kind of god/universal consciousness that is responsible for creating the universe.

Agnostic Atheist: I cannot know, but I don't believe there is a god of any kind.
Agnostic Theist: I cannot know, but I believe there is some sort of creator god.

@Joanne I think we are on the same page with the definitions and I think your admitting that we can't know for certain one way or the other is honest. I guess they call it faith for a reason. Maybe energy always existed or maybe there had to be some eternal first cause. IDK

@tactic8 To clarify: I see no reason whatsoever to think that any kind of god exists. I refer to Occam's Razor which basically states: when searching for answers, don't add anything that is not necessary. Or, in other words, the simpler explanation is usually the correct one.

Science shows us that there is no need to give energy a consciousness or call it a god--and especially no need to give it human attributes. This simply adds an unnecessary layer of complexity. But, as said above, this simply cannot be known; but why add something if it isn't necessary.

This said, I have no issues with anyone who believes in some sort of creator being. I lingered at deism for awhile on my way from believer to atheist. I only have a problem with those who claim to KNOW there is a god and go further and claim to KNOW the will of this being and then try to force their beliefs onto others. I also have a problem with those who put us all at risk because they put their beliefs above scientific facts.


Regarding Kalam, you might be interested in this:

Mvtt Level 6 Oct 15, 2020

His first point was good enough to convince the hypothesis doesn’t support a creator god. Thanks for sharing πŸ™‚


The Epicurean dilemma was a prime motivating factor in my eventual dismissal of a personal, albeit capricious god, who, it is said, occasionally interferes with the natural chain of cause and effect. Having abandoned the notion of a personal, interactive deity, I retreated to the god of my avatar.

Deism advances the idea that an all-powerful being created the universe and its laws, then moved on to other more pressing matters, never to be heard from or seen. To the Deist, by the time human beings evolved, this supreme being had been completely absent for the better part of 13.7 billion years!

But even this idea is unsatisfying. Prior to the creation of the universe, what was this deity doing? How long had it existed in the nothingness of a non-existent universe? And what possible benefit do we gain by believing in something that can in no way be proven to exist and has zero impact on our own existence?


Nobody β€œknows”. Anybody who says they do β€œknow” is either mis-communicating or lying.

Mvtt Level 6 Oct 15, 2020

Nothing works like skepticism and inquiry.
I couldn't ask more from anyone.


If you don't know something to be true, then the default position is to assume it isn't.
You do not KNOW there is not a nun's habit wearing purple invisible intangible giant hedgehog shitting invisible, intangible big macs all over your front room carpet, but I am pretty damn sure you are not agnostic about that.
You do not know that Leonard Nimoy was not the second coming of Christ who instead of saving the world decided to make sci fi movies instead and just never told anyone and refrained from performing miracles becaus they gave him chronic IBS, but I am pretty damn sure you are not agnostic about that either.
What makes the ridiculous claims of Christianity any less bull shit, than any other bull shit claim?
Nothing, so why make a special pleading claim for ir?

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