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For all the theists out there posing as agnostics and calling me a Gnostic Atheist. I don't want to waste my breath so I posted a meme.

barjoe 9 Apr 16
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5

Oh I thought we got rid of DangerDave the primary theist here in agnostic sheep clothing crying out gnostic atheist all the time. Don't tell me he's back. Or are there more like him? Is it any wonder these days that when someone tells me they are an agnostic I am immediately wary until I feel confident that their position is a credible one. I wouldn't have said that a few years ago. Live and learn.

He was the worst one but not the only one. There's plenty of others still at it.

@barjoe feel free to point them out. I have no time for this agnostic subversion.

They are now officially hoist by their own petard! Live by (unwanted, obnoxious) labeling, die by it, duuuuhhhhhhhh

@AnneWimsey perhaps you were not pursued, badgered, accused, and finally threatened by DangerDave like I was, just for being an atheist. You were fortunate.

@David1955 actually, we had quite a little donnybrook, he is/was absolutely batshit on the subject. I on the other hand am like a pit bull with locked jaws......

@AnneWimsey You used to tear him a new one. I am guessing he like you. Obviously the feeling was mutual. lol

@AnneWimsey yes well I have thick skin too, but I draw the line at being called a fascist and threats to be 'exposed' and alike. I must say I was disappointed that Admin did nothing, but that's par for the course here these days.

I always found the irony, that he managed to make a gnostic belief system out of agnostsism quite wild, and that he then went around accusing everyone else of being gnostic, despite pedaling the most extreme certainties of his own. Well wild aright , but he got boring in the end.

He said when he left, that he was going, because he had gathered enough data on atheists from this site, for the book he was going to write. Wonder if anyone will ever read it ?

@Fernapple he also made a threat to me about being to get personal details about members on this site as well. I flagged Admin as I considered that appalling. Reply from Admin, none. That's when I blocked him. My first block in 4 years. It's concerns like this that worry me about this site. Where does the info go? And yes, DangerDave engaged in pathological projection.

@David1955 Sad to say, some people have a need to feel that they are somehow special. And if they lack social skills, have failed in relationships, can not make a worthwhile social contribution and are alone. (And needing to be someone special, will help you become all of those things.)

Then one of the few things that will help you keep the delusion of being special, is thinking that you have some great knowledge and wisdom, not given to others. While to make you special it has to be, way out and extreme, and to keep your, way out, views safe, you have to shut yourself off completely from any form of critical thinking. So that, they will wriggle, squirm, shout, and offer any insult to others or the world at large rather than face admitting even the least vestage of critical thought, or the benefits of doubt into their world. I have just wasted a lot of time on one such, who I though could be redeemable to some degree, but, no chance.

@David1955 I'm glad the Admin does nothing. I can say what I like and I can block people or tell them to go fuck themself in those exact words. If I don't like what they say, they don't like what I say. Oh well.

@barjoe the point was not about his crazy beliefs, but making threats to access members' personal details as part of his research. You don't think that's an admin issue? I certainly do.

@David1955 Threats? What kind of threats?

4

You can always tell a religiot by their complete inability to comprehend the idea that some people just don't believe in fairy tales...

Exactly. They can't comprehend that people don't share their beliefs. They find it necessary to define them.

@barjoe More like pigeon hole people they can't define them so they sort them into groups with made up labels like "demon worshipper" or "baby eater"...
They go completely off their nut when you play the game with them on social media by doing things like trading "babby recipes..."

I can remember many years ago in Fundie School, as a child, being instructed to consider any disagreement with the doctrine we were given as a personal attack from a hellbound sinner. They really, really wanted to quash any inclination we might ever have to entertain the idea that what they were telling us might not be true. Serious brainwashing from pre-school on.

You have to understand it’s not fairy tales to some people. They honestly believe everything because they have been taught as a child that if they don’t they will be tortured forever and ever

3

I actually enjoyed a number of the conversations on this, I really don't have anything to say about it, but I'm about ready to go back to my hobby of not collecting stamps. 🤔

3

i love this

3

Doncha love being labeled?

2

Some great examples to demonstrate that Atheism is the absence of religion.

2

I agree with all of that meme. The problem is getting everyone else to agree with it. I remain an agnostic atheist and that viewpoint is not a religion.

Were shouldn't care if people agree with us. That's for THEM to care about. I just don't want them to define me. That's no better than fucking Christians trying to convert me. I am just an Atheist. I don'tclaim to be open minded about anything.

so, i'm not really interested in debating it, but there are apparently (at least) two definitions of "agnostic," one being "the opposite of gnostic," and the other being...some derivation or dilution of that, so accordingly, saying stuff like "I remain an agnostic atheist and that viewpoint is not a religion" will have you being perceived as "gnostic" by some, since you speak as if you know. And believing there is no God might easily become a religion i guess, just like "Science" or most any other concept, so no offense meant but the meme is mostly gratuitous shit, imo; atheism is just the opposite of theism, right? Both believers, iow?

@bbyrd009 Non-Believer. Not a Agnostic. Atheism is not a Religion. It's my belief. I'm not a member of a group. I just know there is no god. I don't try to influence others. If people need to explain their fears, I don't want to upset them. To thine own self be true. I don't want to be part of an atheist community. Just me, myself and I.

@barjoe "Non-Believer...
It's my belief."
i guess we're all a bit conflicted prolly 🙂

@bbyrd009 A religious believer is not me. I have a "belief" that there is no fucking God. That is not a religion. I don't go to church. I would never go to an Atheist gathering. I don't need to reaffirm with other people what I know.

@barjoe funny thing about definitions, i guess we tend to pick the one most comfortable for us?

@bbyrd009 Everyone has the right to define themselves. They don't want to be defined..

@barjoe ah, rights
yeh

@bbyrd009 Had "rights" become a dirty word?

@barjoe oh ha guess it depends upon the context?
let's just say it's often a clue-word imo

2

I've never completely understood the distinction between agnosticism and atheism. For example, everything I've ever read by Robert Green Ingersoll (the 'Great Agnostic' of the 19th century) resonates, and I'm just as comfortable with the label atheist as I am with the label of agnostic. I identify, first and foremost, as a nullifidian (one who is without faith or a religion).

My understanding is an agnostic is not having any knowledge a god exist, and an atheist is not believing in gods.

@xenoview Indeed! Which is why, as one who lacks any knowledge (or fact pattern) of any deity upon which to base a belief, I am equally comfortable with both “labels.”

@p-nullifidian I agree with you.

2

I have only one belief, which is "Belief is a dirty word." I don't assume anything in the universe to be true until I get the proof.**

(Edited. Sorry, I must have been half asleep when I wrote the original.)

"Everything else in the universe I'm just assuming is true until I get the proof."

If I understand this position correctly, to simply assume something is 'true' (i.e., factual) while waiting for the 'proof' is, IMHO, illogical.

@mischl Everything in the universe is false until I see credible evidence.

@p-nullifidian I misspoke. Apology and correction above.

@mischl No need to apologize... we’re all humans. Peace.

2

I think DangerDave has left the building.

skado Level 9 Apr 16, 2021

He wasn't the Lone Ranger.

Perhaps he's back under a new name? If I get a wiff that he is, I'll block him right away. He's a lune.

@David1955 don't you mean a loon not a lune?

[dictionary.com]

@FrayedBear i think the word comes from lunatic, so either way.

@David1955 Lune is a crescent shape, loon is derived from lunatic.

@barjoe are you saying Danger Dave was half moon shaped or only came out then?

@FrayedBear Lune is a crescent shape. Loon is a crazy person. Dave is a stubborn person.

@barjoe which both relate to the word luna, regarding the moon 😉 lunatics thought to come out on a full moon. So connected too.

1

Gnostic Atheist"...implying you are 100% convinced that there's no god...and you know for a fact that this is true? That just doesn't sound very scientific. Your meme jokes...but you have to decide - are you more or less sure and/or convinced by evidence (you are "Gnostic" ) that there is no (a) god (theist)?

Maybe this will help you?

Maybe this will help you.
I don't give a fuck.

1

Have been changing my choices to, ‘no religion’ recently, as have been educated about this by the Humanists 🙂 thanks.

I don't try to influence anyone, that's what religious people do. I'm glad you're coming to your own conclusions.

1

There are basically three types of atheists:
a) plain vanilla atheists: people who just happen not to believe in God or some 'higher being' or an 'unseen order'
b) atheists who are agitators , who believe that religion is a mental plague to be eradicated. They consider themselves to be the "médecins sans frontières" of mental health, fighting for a world without religions. Alas, their utopia is but a mirage, their striving donquixotesque. Above all, they rarely understand the nature of the object of their revulsion, which leads us to variety
c) scientifically minded atheists. They know that there will never be a world without religion. They view religions much like biologists or doctors view bacteria: they are ubiquitous; some of them are symbionts; some of them are toxic. What is most important: you have to study them first - then you can try to cultivate the 'good' strains and combat or contain the parasitic strains.

There are only two types of people. Those who say there's basically three types of atheists and those who don't.

Wedging people into categories is more limiting for the wedger than it is for the categorized.

@Deb57 Is people wedging as bad as label sticking? 🤔 Still sounds like a bunch of hoo ha to me.

@oldFloyd I've been wedged a lot, but never stuck. Not for long, anyway. 😉

@Deb57 I hate wedgies🤣

1

I like @p-nulifidian’s take on this. @yvilletom

Nulifidian would be a good answer when church people ask what religion I am.

1

Fun pokes aside...I'm curious about the claim:
Theists posing as agnostics!?

All theists by definition are agnostics, they don't KNOW for sure God exists...but they BELiEVE that the sum of current evidence indicates that a God exists. To the theists that's called "faith".

I'm an Agnostic...and I'm Atheist. I also don't know for sure if God exists...but I believe the sum of current evidence indicates that a God or Gods does/do not exist. Oh me of no faith....

A Gnostic Atheist mean the atheist KNOWS God does not exist despite the current sum of evidence.

So yes you are an Atheist...and you seem to disfavor being called a gnostic atheist....would you describe yourself as a angnostic atheist?

I am not open to even the most infinitesimal possibility that the supernatural exists. Theists who don't accept the tenants of organized religion, but still believe in ghosts, ESP, afterlife, a creator, higher power or other fairy tales call themselves agnostic. They can call themselves what they want. I don't agree.

Many theists claim they to know there is a God, and they also claim they have a personal relationship with that God.

Of course their claims are unfounded.

Last, based on everything we know there is no reason to even suspect there is a God.

@Alienbeing Religion is an hallucination.....having a relationship with a non-existent entity.

@barjoe interesting...so if real scientific evidence existed for a god or gods...you would act much like a religious person would...

@Alienbeing true, but we don't know everything...there may be a diety just not one we can fathom...or should worship...or one that is remotely aware of us.

@MakeItGood Real scientific evidence does NOT exist. You entertain whatever possibilities make you happy. I will not.

@MakeItGood Your "there may be" is a reference to nothing. As such there is no reason to believe.

@barjoe like ANY scientific evidence in general? None of ir exists?

@barjoe, @Alienbeing the same reasoning applies to the your claim as well. Thats the point. You don't get to apply it to one side only.

@MakeItGood I can apply anything I want to. Who are you to define me or tell me what I get to do?

@MakeItGood No the same reasoning does not apply AT ALL. No reason is a FACT. Try to prove me wrong by coming up with a reason.

@Alienbeing well the reason is the fact we do not know everything and that if we look at our history of physics and astronomy...that stuff is not reasonable to come up with. No one could reasonably predict or guess that the Sun is a huge ball of gas powered by nuclear reactions when it looks so small in the sky. That only came after studying nature carefully and reasoning from what was observed. People thought light was a wave, electrons are particle s, but it turns out they both are both.

All I'm saying is our scientific experience is clear: we are likely to get something that contradicts our expectations and assumptions. And I think a sentience is entirely likely because we don't know the full aspect of the existence.

@MakeItGood Poor, very poor try. Saying we don't know everything is NOT a reason to assume anything. Do you suspect a God for everything you don't know? Not knowing is no reason to suspect a mystical force.

Your comment about the Sun is also shallow, and cites an improper conclusion. We did not realize the Sun was gas by studying Nature. We studied Physics and learned. Apparently you don't hold Science very highly.

@Alienbeing i agree but you make my point! why assume something doesn't exist when you already say don't assume something does exist. Instead say I don't know if either is true or not. Thats the most correct answer: a literal "I don't know". Both sides are possible and we can assign probabilities just yet.

Dude...Im a physicist. In my tiny area of expertise let me tell ya what I know for sure: physics studies nature! Okay? Thats what we observe and model!. We studied the natureof the sun: the luminosity, the spectral decomposition of hydrogen and helium lines, the orbit of earth around it, that such a mass would undergi extreme gravity and the gas would collect and start thermonuclear reactions,

If you don't like the sun analogy I can give you one dealing with the nature of particles and fields at the quantum regime. Either way we have ample evidence that natures doesnt give an either or answer...so the best answer we should have right now is i dont.knoe

And thats agnosticism.

@MakeItGood No, I did not make your point at all. Saying there is no reason to believe in no way relates to your first sentence. I also note you have yet to come up with any reason to believe or even suspect. Your "I don't know" does not cause any reason to believe. We don't know many things, that does not infer we should think there may be something.

If you are a physicist you ignore much. What in your educational background even infers a God?

Your rationalizations actually make my point. Your ramble without conclusion. When you can come up with any reason to believe, let me know.

1

🖤🖤🖤

Mvtt Level 6 Apr 16, 2021
1

This is a very profound observation.

1

might as well be. is a lack of belief a belief on its own?, maybe not.

A belief is not in and of itself a religion, it's a viewpoint.

@barjoe is religion not a viewpoint?

@hankster So? Does that mean all viewpoints are religion? Silly.

@barjoe Is it necessary for a religion to have a god at its centre? Could there not be a religion that declares that there are no deities?

@hankster No No No. Atheism is not a religion. It's a rejection of all religion. It's means there is no fucking god, at all.

@barjoe lol...just asking. I myself do not really think that atheism is a religion either, however, It is very religious in that it expresses a certain characterization of god, or the lack thereof. the whole reason for atheism's existence is to refute god or religion?

@hankster Not for me. I just came to a conclusion at a very young age, that supernatural phenomena, deities, ghosts, spirits, fairy tales, Santa Claus, little green men and god, is an impossibility. I don't care what other people believe, so long as they don't try to misrepresent what I think, and make it out to be a religion.

@barjoe strange you don't care what they think about your opinion until they are mistaken. sounds very religious.....just teasing.

@hankster you completely confuse ignoring the Tooth Fairy (an irrelevant & silly construct) vs. being obsessed with it.

@AnneWimsey good. confusion is much clearer than the futility of knowing.

1

Can't count how many times in the past I wish had that list available during discussions.

1

Amen, brother.

1

Ya hit the nail on the head!

0

"its not the size of the boat, its the motion in the ocean"

is this applicable here?

i wonder what % of woman would agree with that age old adage

i suppose that there is some monster hogs out there thatd be too much to take in*

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