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19 11

LINK Is It Ethical To Use Amazon? | Current Affairs

Opinions please, read and tell me what you think.

Should we be ashamed of ourselves for patronizing evil corporations?

by NATHAN J. ROBINSON

Just about every week, I order a thing from Amazon. Sometimes it is a connector cable or some teabags. Occasionally it is a bag of gummy volcanoes. Checking my order history, I find that most recently it was a pair of lamp harps and a copy of John Cassidy’s How Markets Fail. I have an Amazon Prime account, which not only gets me free two-day shipping but grants me unlimited access to such cinema classics as Atlas Shrugged: Part II. I do not have an Alexa, because they are creepy. But I’ve bought everything from fountain pens to ladybugs and given Jeff Bezos God-knows-how-many of my hard-earned dollars.

All of which raises the question of whether I am a hypocrite who daily violates the principles he most holds dear. Actually, I know I am a hypocrite who violates my dearest principles—I suppose the question is rather: Just how bad of a hypocrite am I? Can one denounce Amazon’s business practices while using its services? Should people feel bad about using Amazon? Should they actively try to avoid it?

Let’s be clear: Amazon is terrible. Just a truly awful company in so many ways. Most recently, of course, they pitted struggling cities around the country against each other in a brutal “race to the bottom” to see how many taxpayer handouts they could get. New York City’s bribes succeeded and now Amazon has granted New York the privilege of having one of its working-class neighborhoods rapidly gentrified, and becoming even more unequal. But Amazon also overworks both its white-collar and blue-collar employees, and threatens to use its economic power to hurt local economies if the people so much as think of trying to make the company pay its fair share in taxes. An Amazon-dominated future is a bleak one: total unaccountable control of the economy in the hands of one fabulously wealthy individual, millions upon millions of people toiling away in his factories and warehouses.

Given all of that, the only ethical path would seem to be to have nothing to do with Amazon. Don’t go near it! Nobody’s making you. Why give money to Jeff Bezos? Amazon is like Walmart, and as with Walmart you should give your money to small businesses instead. Help your local shops, the places that treat their employees well and actually pay their taxes. If you succumb to Amazon’s temptations, you’re complicit in their evil.

And yet: As much as this makes sense to me intuitively, it also seems troublingly close to the conservative line that I reject: If you hate capitalism so much, why do you use an iPhone? (For the record, personally I don’t have an iPhone. I have one of these.) Versions of that kind of thinking strike me as silly: “You critique feudalism yet you live under feudalism,” “You say your boss exploits you, but you’re the one who chooses to work there,” “You criticize the actions of the American government yet you continue to live here.” In each case, the person making the critique seems to be focusing on the wrong thing. Why should we leave the country instead of making the government’s policies better? Why should we give up our paycheck instead of demanding an end to exploitation? Because it’s perfectly possible to “have your cake and eat it too,” why should we be asking people to choose between either bad cake or no cake?

That’s kind of how I think about Amazon and the iPhone. The problem isn’t that people use iPhones, it’s that iPhones are produced under intolerable conditions. If people should be ashamed, it’s not for the act of purchasing the product, but for failing to join a political movement aimed at ending exploitation. There’s nothing inherently wrong with having something like Amazon, a central system for choosing and delivering goods. (Apart from the climate consequences of mass consumption which is an entirely separate debate that will be had on a day that is not today.) The problem is that this system is operating as an extreme hierarchy, in which one man reaps nearly all the benefits and workers have very little control over their conditions. The solution, then, should not be to get people to stop using Amazon, any more than the solution to bad government policy is to leave the country. Instead, the goal should be to democratize Amazon and redistribute its earnings more equitably. In a way, Amazon is like the government: It’s been called monopolistic, and is steadily becoming more so. Plus, as with the working class families who shop at Walmart, why would we put the onus of ethical action on the consumer trying to save money? And besides, is Amazon that much worse than other giant corporations? On the left, there’s a slogan: “There is no ethical consumption under capitalism,” meaning that if the economic system is based on exploitation, it’s fruitless to try not to participate in an exploitative system. You’re going to be, no matter what, unless you go off and live in the forest and eat berries. So you might as well keep your Prime account, keep getting Always Lower prices at Walmart, and join the international proletarian movement!

I tell myself all of these things, and I believe them, but then I quickly swing back in the other direction: Okay, fine, there may not be any PERFECTLY ethical form of consumption, but surely there is more and less ethical consumption. If you have a choice between non-union sweatshop-made goods and goods made with well-paid unionized laborers, shouldn’t you choose the latter? Do consumers really bear no responsibility for the consequences of their choices? If consumers stopped using Amazon, Amazon wouldn’t be able to keep exploiting people. Boycotts can work, consumers have power. This seems persuasive to me, too. If I wear coats made by slaves, and I could choose to wear coats that are not made by slaves, surely that’s bad. And if that’s bad, then aren’t other choices just less extreme versions of a quite real ethical dilemma?

All of this gets complicated by another ethical problem: that of needless consumption itself. Is the problem that I am buying gummies and lamp harps from Amazon in particular, or is it that I am buying gummies and lamp harps when there are poor children whose families can’t afford to keep them alive? Perhaps the thing that makes me a hypocrite is not that I am going to the wrong retailer, but that I’m buying retail goods that I don’t absolutely need. I’ve wrestled with this before in the context of Mardi Gras: I love Mardi Gras, but it’s wasteful, extravagant, and in some sense pointless, and I have difficulty trying to justify it. And yet I feel strongly that a world without Mardi Gras would be a much worse world and that there’s no need to choose between Mardi Gras and healthy children. The kind of life I live, with its occasional carnivals and candies, seems like one everyone could have if we distributed the earth’s resources well.

I can never be sure, when I think about the ethics of using Amazon, whether I’m allowing my desires to manipulate my reasoning. Do I just want to find a justification for doing what I enjoy doing, the same way everyone who is complicit in evil can come up with an argument for why what they’re doing is Actually Good? I know a lot of motivated reasoning occurs around animal rights, for instance—taking the issue seriously leads to very disturbing conclusions about people’s role in a horrendous atrocity, so we come up with flimsy excuses to avoid confronting the obvious.

I have no good answers to the Amazon problem, because I hold two beliefs that contradict each other and I haven’t found a way to reconcile them: (1) what’s wrong is not the act of purchasing from Amazon, but what Amazon does to its employees, and since there would be nothing wrong with purchasing from Amazon if it was, say, a worker cooperative, the demand should be “democratize it” rather than “stop using it.” (2) You shouldn’t buy from companies with highly unethical business practices, such as staying in a hotel that fired striking workers, or buying slave-made goods. I wrestle with this constantly, because Amazon is very difficult to avoid: We sell Current Affairs books and magazine subscriptions using Amazon and we use certain Amazon “web services” (Amazon absolutely dominates cloud computing and is bigger than its four next biggest competitors—Google, Microsoft, IBM, and Alibaba—combined, so lots of entities that you might not think are supporting Amazon are supporting Amazon). The company is going to continue to grow and grow, and we will all be touched by it in one way or another. Is it right or even helpful to boycott it? Should we decline to watch Amazon TV shows, on principle, and if so what is the principle? Honestly, I’d like to know what you think, because personally I don’t believe there are obvious answers to these questions. Nobody wants to be complicit in evil, but we’re all complicit in some evil, so what are our responsibilities as individuals? Are these even the right questions?

HippieChick58 9 Apr 13
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19 comments

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3

I often avoid using Amazon. I do use it, from time-to-time. Sometimes time, availability, and, honestly, cost pushes me toward them. Unlike Walmart and Home Depot, which I totally avoid, there isn't always a good alternative.

I also avoid Walmart and Home Depot. When I started WFH I needed a type of power strip and I needed it immediately or sooner. I hit two Targets first and didn't find it, so decided as last resort I'd try WM. I found it at WM. So the last time I was in a WM was August 2020. I have no plans to go again unless hell freezes over.

1

Capitalism is OK when there is a win-win situation created for all parties, and Amazon seems good at it.

Ryo1 Level 8 Apr 14, 2022
8

I agree with the general consensus of everyone who's already responded. As someone who has a 36-inch inseam, I still remember the nightmare of trying to find pants long enough, and I use a number of supplements that aren't available locally at all. Add to that the convenience of sending things to friends and family and charities, it's no wonder it's got a loyal user base.

So I won't be boycotting Amazon. First, they're so large that it would be almost impossible to institute a boycott large enough that it would impact them, so why punish ourselves? But it would be much more effective to pressure politicians to change the laws that allow large corporations to get away with minimal taxes and abusive employee conditions. A lot of them get away with that. Amazon is simply one of the largest.

I use Amazon Smile and donate to NPR

@twill Good deal! I use it to donate to The Alzheimer's Association.

My Amazon Smile goes to Planned Parenthood.

36 inch inseam. Wow!

7
  1. could tell myriad stories about how i tried like crazy to find something I needed locally (or for a price i wanted to pay) & Amazon came through for me
  2. In the RV community, Amazon is Loved.....not only are they one of the few employers who will hire "transients" but many times they provide free RV parking on their grounds (24/7) while you are employed by them.
  3. I have read how they require their employees to "keep moving", much as I would if I were your employer....try working in a cotton mill, where you have to keep up with the never-turned-off-since-1896 machinery, or being paid by-the-piece at a pants manufacturer, or being a waitress on Mother's Day, you lazy fucks.
6

I am addicted to Amazon and our consumer economy. Yes, I occasionally feel guilty about it but I seem to always follow the path of least resistance. I could find myself shopping for hours both online and in stores trying to find the correct lawn mower part but I know all I have to do is put in my part number and it will be immediately available on Amazon. I have subscriptions to several items that I use all the time because it is so wonderful never to have to run to town to buy those items when I run out.

I have tried to use other online retailers and have found the experience much less enjoyable or safe. Amazon's return and guarantees are rock solid while some other companies seem to do their best to make sure you don't get what you paid for.

I have a grandson that works for Amazon and this work experience has been good for him. It provided him funds and the discipline that he needed. He now has a life plan and timetable to do what he really wants to do. Next to July he hopes to enter a training system to be a firefighter. I think they're employee training and work system is very attractive to kids that grew up on the internet.

That said, I have been avoiding Walmart as much as possible for 20 years and they are still here. I have to confess that about three times a year, I go to their soda aisle and purchase as many 12 packs of peach clear something as they have in stock. At that time I also very determinely avoid buying anything else during the trip.

In other words, like almost anything else in our world, the ethical thing to do is consume less. Of course then, all the little robot workers would be without a job with no way to feed their children. That would be a cool way to accomplish population control.

7

Long rant and I did not get far into it. I live in a rural area so shopping options are limited. Amazon's jeff bezos is evil but the business model worked. If bezos walked his talk there would be less of an issue. Big box store Walmart killed off a lot of the small town business and it's owners are as evil as bezos.
There is a pattern here and it starts with who we elect to govern and the regulations we have(or don't) to try and level the playing field. So boycotting may soothe the conscience but does nothing to address unbridled Capitalism.

3

It's an important question. I think many many corporations and governments, including the US government, indulge in countless inethical practices. At least in theory there are measures citizens or consumers can take to rectify the situation such as regulatory institutions and consumer protection laws. I think a truly robust democracy is the way where government agencies and politicians are not beholden to private wealth. I am just dreaming maybe

7

Are you punishing yourself and if so for what reason? Amazon is similar to Walmart in many ways and I use both without even thinking about it. I have an Amazon account and last used it at Christmas. I use these places because local stores and shops do not have what I want. That's true with Amazon anyway. I order from them when other shops do not have what I want. I have no guilt about any of this. You sound as if you have guilt. How do you bring ethics into play in these situations? I don't even think about it.

Yes, Alexa can be creepy but she is only on my 4k Max Firestick. Even that device has been hijacked by me so I have complete control of it. Amazon cannot take it back from me in any way. I have done this with my computers also. Cortana is not there and shut down. Once in the while Microsoft breaks through and wants to update. I reinforce my crack programs again and stop it. Google wants to own you but I will not allow that either. I have an adblock for everything. Get them free if you watch and I think my best one came from greedy old Google. Adblock Ultimate. Some websites want you to not use your adblock because they make money with ads by click and view. Fuck them! I do my best to ignore the nonsense and have things my way. Rest assured that I do not think it unethical to do so.

Are we all complicit in some evil? Of course we are. It's called the world. The greed of the world. You either make it work for you or maybe try going to live in a cave. I have no guilt at all.

@DenoPenno

Well said. Like you, I shop online for items I cannot get locally.

Love Amazon's free easy returns. You don't even need a box. Drop it off at the UPS Store and they ship it to Amazon that day.

5

Purchases sustain systems, whether it's capitalism or monopoly or evil business practices. If you can avoid giving your dollars to the worst ones, great. If not, maybe by being conscious of the pros and cons of doing business with them, you can steer a modified course - shop there only when there's no reasonable alternative.

To some extent, it's the system that's to blame; the company is playing by the same rules other large corporations play by - seeking tax incentives, etc. Systems are difficult to change, but they are created by people and sustained by people. It's worth paying attention to how we can contribute to incremental change and progress.

Companies do sometimes respond to bad PR. Boycotts may not dry up revenues as much as they scare a company into making adjustments to protect its image. Public pressure worked (temporarily at least) to cut corporate contributions to anti-democracy elected officials in Georgia and elsewhere.

7

I've been an Amazon shopper for 25 years. No complaints. And they keep getting better.
Lots of evil in this world, that is one thing Amazon will never have a monopoly on.

A book I started reading lately " The Privatization of Everything" spelled it out: We are no longer citizens. We are consumers

twill Level 7 Apr 14, 2022
2

The high cost of low prices. Ultimately, the best answer is to reduce consumption. The convenience of Amazon, and other internet purchase options encourages over consumption, and leads people away from buying locally and supporting their local economies.

BDair Level 8 Apr 14, 2022
2

Never have used Amazon and never will after hearing the complaints, etc, I have heard from others who have used it and copped shit , etc, for complaining about screw-ups, etc, etc.

5

Boycot Amazon until they change their ways. I have never purchased anything from them.

13

Amazon is a reliable company with excellent customer service ,a super easy return policy ,great prices and unbelievably fast delivery service ,Amazon prime free delivery along with prime video .Many business could not exist if they could not sell on Amazon .I find products here that I can not find anywhere else and cheaper than most other places.

Amazon is a good example of a highly successful American company. Tesla is another good example.

7

I find that there are many small businesses that sell through Amazon and I try to figure out who these people are and buy from them without going through Amazon.

10

When Walmart came to Wenatchee, WA it killed wonderful small specialty stores. One-by-one they closed. Gone were kitchen shops, elegant women's clothes, men's fine clothing, garden shops, art supplies and custom framers. Farewell little shop with fishing gear and lures. Goodbye, much loved bookstores.

Big box stores proliferated selling low quality crap. Nothing fits me. I'm a petite woman in increasingly obese America.

So I have a choice. I can order from Amazon. Or drive 150 miles over dangerous, steep, snowy and icy Cascade mountains to hit hideous gridlock and bumper-to-bumper slowdowns approaching and in Seattle.

Let's see. Shall I endanger, torture and exhaust myself driving 300 miles round trip over the mountains only to find no parking in Seattle? Or order online?

It's not a hard decision.

Same

My late partner had the exact same problem all 5'0' 103 lbs of her. She found a better selection of clothes either in the children's section or thrift shops. That last one was a milestone for me. No Iranian would be caught dead in a Thrift Shop but over time she came to accept them and even donated to them.

7

I'm trying to be done with as many of these corporations as I can.
It's not as easy as some might think, but it's worth it to me to try.

I'm not about to tell anyone else to do.

5

Amazon may be among the best examples of evil that we are compelled to subsidize. We could stop driving cars, and stop eating meat or using leather, and many other things. We live in a deeply, thoroughly corrupt culture, from religion to politics to capitalism. If we should manage to survive, we might find a few solutions to the rampant corruption. The corruption is so pervasive that, at this juncture, corruption could arguably be given priority over climate change, meaning simply that both problems are comparably existential.

In the specific case of Amazon, Bezos should be classified as a corrupt kleptocrat and his assets seized. In talks, he seems rational and even somewhat humanitarian, but his actions and policies say otherwise.

In my utopia, companies should not be able to attain more that 33% market share, and exceeding that, and/or individuals pocketing more than 10 M would be deemed criminally immoral. I favor an extra-judicial lottery to persuade people of that. I am very happy to see what is happening to Russia's kleptocrats, and a similar attitude should be levied against our own.

Put simply, kleptocracy is a threat to national security and species survival, and that provides all the justification needed to enact ultimate penalties. None of the wealthy are indispensable, and you can be sure that they don't have the scruples to protect us.

I agree about the corruption part. I think if corruption could be stopped, climate change would be addressed.

5

I could only read half of that. It's a total cop out, and I think he knows it and is just trying to ease his conscience with some mental gymnastics.

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