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I believe in the power of faith. I’m in sales I see first hand how people who do not have faith and believe don’t do as well as people who do.

For example. When I walk into a room I have full faith that I’m closing the deal. And when it doesn’t happen I just write it off to it wasn’t meant to be.

Kind of like prayer. If you get what you want thank god and if you don’t god works in mysterious ways.

Do you think this is foolish of me? I’m one of the best in my company. The other top guys think the same as me.

What’s your opinion on belief and faith when not in a religious context?

AgnosticBear 6 Jan 2
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37 comments

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0

There is a difference between faith and expectation. I don't have faith that my van will start in a morning - I have a reasonable expectation based upon previous experience, knowing that it is regularly serviced and it is a make that has a good record of reliability.

I had lots of faith that my old 1950's motorcycle would get me to my destination without breaking down. I had no evidence to back this up, as it never made it on any journey over about 40 miles. But I had faith that one day...... 🙂

17

I don't know if I would call that faith, confidence maybe. I would ask faith in WHAT? Is it God giving you that sale? Or is it your preparation, your personality, charisma? Or your BS? 🙂

Chick, you already know it's his BS. And what has this dude achieved from his lies or near lies. He probably treats the rest of his life in the same way.

@DonCoryon If being truthful is being "angry"- then 'yep, angry a whole lot'. And not to forget, the truthfulness of truth is that it will not set one free- it will probably depress. My misfortune is that I have met too many 'fast talkers'- they do get tedious after a while.

11

I had a career in consumer goods and the gift industry where I was #1 Nationally for Gund, Inc.in 2008. I succeeded by establishing more new accounts than anyone, setting goals and surpassing them and niche marketing. I became friends with my customers who were pissed when the company let me go in 2010 with a company buyout-letting area managers go. god didn't do the work tobe the best-I did the work.

You are on the point as usual. I too was in sales for a period or time and was able to not only make a living but make an exceptional livelihood, selling death products to the living. My success had absolutely nothin to do with "faith" and everything to do with me working my ass off.

7

I think that what you call faith, I would label self confidence. Of course those who are more confident in their abilities will be more successful.

@DonCoryon Do you suppose there is a superstitious element to it? like if you didn't hold out this faith your success would wane. I used to think that way. Leading up to something important, I would go through these little rituals in my mind to assure myself that I'm the man and I got this. If things didn't go as planned I'd place the blame on having not thought out those rituals quit right. Then I realized I was being superstitious and silly.

7

You and I define "faith" differently. I define faith as blind loyalty and trust. What you describe, I simply call confidence or serf-confidence. To me= they are very different things.

7

sounds like positive thinking bolstering your confidence and leading to a positive outcome

6

Just sounds like confidence

5

The French in WW1 also believed in faith. They believed they could win in the face of German military might. The French war college taught that elan vital would see them through. They were mowed down in droves. Belief in oneself only gets you so far.

4

That is - I think - the power of positive thinking. And a tactic for keeping your momentum and enthusiasm going. It's different, I think, in fundamental ways, from the concept of 'faith', as that term is used in organized religion. In theology, faith is the conviction of the truth of a certain doctrine of religion, especially when the belief is not based on reason. Your use of positive thinking is not in contradiction to reason. On the contrary, we know from our studies of psychology and sociology how and why it works to influence the conduct and decision making of others.

4

Sounds more like you are very confident, believe you have a good product and know how to communicate with people to gain their trust. You close the deal. Once in a while you come across someone who isn't buying what you have to sell. Positive thinking goes a long way.

4

I am not a gambler but I had lived in Vegas and right now I am 6 minutes from a Casino in Maryland and my son works for Cesar's.... It is all about the Odds but you Shall Never be Neglecting the fact "The House Never Loses" faith or no faith is the one constant... House Wins. Best You Can Do Is Change The Odds More to Your Side and then and only then... work that magic you got so much faith on. Be the Magic Man or Magic Woman. I still believe in Mankind.

3

I think faith and willpower are very closely related. Faith is willpower externalized. Willpower is internalized. I have never had faith, so I only see it in action. I think Faith fails more often than willpower, because willpower has no fall back. No one to blame but yourself. But I have seen success through the use of both. Sales is a manipulation. So I don't know how Faith works in manipulation. The job of sales is to convince someone they want something whether they want/need it or not. How does faith apply?

@DonCoryon I didn't mean it as an offense. And your reply is, well, over the top. I have done everything from own a book store, kill people, college, music, art, and miscellaneous things in between (all in about that order). Do you have a product? Do you have to convince someone that they want your product? Or maybe you just sit at your desk, people call you and you just take their orders. No conversation necessary. Selling a product is the art of making a product seem desirable whether you want it or not. Not sure what that has to do with food or roofs, unless you sell roofs and/or food. No need to get defensive...hehe. Oh, and yeah, successful politicians are the greatest salesmen of all. My ex was a great saleswoman.

Yes, I agree with you, about taking advantage of the person and sell them something they don't want or need. There's an advertisement on TV about an exercise machine and if you just use it for 14 min. (they even have it down to the minute) you will be the most fantastic hunk on the beach. At fitness there is the usual New Years crowd, who have resolved to be beach bunnies or hunks. They are all usually gone by about Feb 1. Actual planning and actual hard work will get the job done. I keep a journal and I am down five pounds from Jan 1, 2017. Anybody who buys into some sales pitch about a magic health machine will have a piece of junk to dust off in the basement. And yes "manipulation" is the correct word.

I don't know what happened there- my last post was in agreement with Jonny Thorazine.

@Diogenes I wasn't even trying to be mean. I was surprised by the reply. I was actually wondering how faith and sales worked in conjunction with each other. In my head Faith is luck with a name attached to it, or a close proximity to that description. If you don't sell something to someone, I am just not sure how Faith is involved. I like the workout analogy. It is a good one. The 'keeping up with the joneses' selling method. Good for you on the weight thing! I was training about 2 years ago and got an 'inoperable' hernia under my left rib that I have been trying to work out...it's made me get a little bit of a belly which is new to me. Not a fan of this...haha

@JohnnyThorazine Hi again. Sorry to hear you have a hernia. That ain't good. Now that I am older than god, I am finding some body parts over inflated (belly) and pieces falling off here and there- I am just a regular junk yard on feet. But I won the rowing contest at fitness last spring 2017. Just goes to show- don't dis a geezer. LOL. Life takes work. I want to quit the bars this year. Na, I have about two pints- but throwing in a tip, and a few coffees, around here, and that is $15--- for a 30 day month that is $450. And I had my first day of non-smoking----- many decades ago. Well right now I am doing "my first few days" of non-drinking. When I was in the Air Force, one of the guys said, "Remember to smile, it will drive your enemies nuts." LOL.

3

@DonCoryon -- you're way off the mark here, but I don't think you're being foolish. It's a pretty natural assumption to make -- but it's not right. Confidence and faith are two different animals. Sales demands a high degree of confidence, a facility with language, and a positive physical presentation which allows you to pitch whatever product effectively. I doubt that when you fail to close you simply chalk it up to the breaks of the game. The most likely thing a person in sales does after losing one is ask themselves what they missed; what went wrong. Then write it off. The whole process is based on you maintaining control over a flexible situation. Good sales people make good cat herders. So, what you do is actually the opposite of church/religion style 'faith'.

The church teaches to supplicate the self to the deity. To approach all things in humility. Faith does not automatically endow the faithful with confidence -- it suppresses it. Most forms of self confidence are mistaken for sinful pride. I have a hard time imagining the balancing act the religious person in sales has to maintain. That old take the initiative away from the client without them knowing it has happened, pin them down and control them to make the sale, all the while in opposition to the character they are supposed to have.

I think you're on to something, but I've experienced some preachers who seem to be convinced that they are selling their faith or at least trying to sell their arguments against me..I once had a discussion with one preacher in the public square turn into a two against one situation when he called in his pal when it was becoming clear that I wasn't agreeing with him quickly enough when I countered some of his arguments.

Stole my exact thoughts. I will live vicariously through you from now on.

@Hominid -- It would be better if we took turns like we have in the past.

@Brio77 -- Clergy is a different critter, too. Defenders of the faith, out there to save the baby church from wolves like us. They are the shepherds and must be seen by their flock as the knowledgeable defenders of the sheeple and their precious stories. From them you can expect all sorts of shenanigans.

2

Faith is believing something without evidence. You claim to have great sales metrics and a lot of success closing. Those are skills that you have to work on....not some unseen force...givw yourself the credit!

2

Would be better to have a talk with Crom. Conan had the right idea as a barbarian: (to Crom) "...if you don't want to help, then the hell with you. Stay out of my way." Hope that was at least close. Arnie's one-liners are hilarious.

2

The problem here is the word faith. In this case you are using it as optimism, or confidence. You are not using it in the context of believing without evidence. You have confidence because you have done this many times before. You are not believing without any factual evidence as it has happened before. As it has happened you have both the confidence and optimism that it will occur again.
Faith in the religious context is simply believing in the unbelievable. You do not do this. Words often have different meanings and we must be careful not to switch meanings and get the different meanings mixed up and out of context.

I would suggest that confidence with evidence is called 'trust'.

2

Confidence and optimism go a long way. They go much further than faith.

2

Hell yeah you gotta have faith. Faith in what is the question. Faith in your abilities, faith that perseverance will win out. Things fall in line as long as you keep at it. But to attribute the results to a god is nonsense.

2

I wouldn't call it faith, I would say confidence, trust is another thing I accept. But never faith, to me faith is belief without proof, or more often, belief in denial of proof to the contrary. faith is bad, very bad. IMHO.

1

It has been my experience that a lot of non-religious people get all bent out of shape about that word FAITH. My dictionary says it also means trust.

It would seem that trust is trust. Could it be that it depends on what you trust? Trust in the ancient fables of a bunch of primitives can be toxic indeed. But trust in your own perceptions is an everyday necessity.

1

Faith has a lot of power in many contexts. However it is really a leap or a bridge from reality into a fantasy situation that exists only in your mind. If you get swept away by a flood or trapped in a bush fire you need faith to remain sane and calm waiting for rescuers but only some of the time do they turn up. If they do reality kicks in again.
You obviously have a lot of faith in yourself and that is actually a good thing as long as you do constant checks on reality. Each next sale is a reality check. Faith in Humanity can be just as powerful as faith in a religion , but you have to accept the bad people as well as the good and that is a feature of most religions.

1

I see a huge difference between believing in yourself and your chosen path (reached by self-assessment, no doubt) in Life vs.depending on imaginary friend(s)!

1

I have cultivated a certain amount of self belief to help me do my job. I didn't have it naturally, it was actually a sort of skill I learned. It definitely helps as it prevents inaction through lack of confidence, of course I have to back it up with actual successes or it's just self delusion.

So self belief helps me to act, but it is not the cause of my success or failure- it's just grease on the wheels.

Is self belief faith? I suppose it could be described that way but really I think it's more a slightly contrived form of confidence.

1

I actually had an argument with a fundamentalist over the difference between faith and confidence on Facebook once. He contended that when I was stepping out my front door everyday, it was because I had faith I'd be making it home that evening. I tried to explain that my expectation of returning was based on an understanding of the world and what I would be encountering that would guide my actions down a safer, smarter path. Needless to say, that conversation didn't lead to anything productive....

1

I have nothing against prayer, it's giving yourself a pep talk. No harm no foul.

If I have a situation come up that needs some thought, I 'talk to myself' LOL- no not like going down the street mumbling away. And I don't "meditate". I do 'contemplate' listing all the faults and positives of an idea. I do NOT pray.

1

The problem is that it's such a cop-out. If you do well, it's because you're great and your god loves you. If you don't, it's the universe or god doing something good for you you don't understand. that line of thinking keeps you from taking responsibility when things don't go your way.

not to mention, anecdotes are not statistically significant. they might do well to guide your behavior, but there are plenty of believers who are starving to death or being murdered. faith is not helping them, and you making god reaponsible for your trivial successes rather than helping them is kind of insulting to them because of the horror they face.

Don, you are using "faith" in pl ace of the more appropriate concept of "confidence." You have confidence in your ability to sell, not faith that it absolutely will happen. You admitted that yourself by acknowledging that sometimes you don't get the sale despite your efforts.

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