Agnostic.com

61 61

Guys ask why women are so pissed off. Even guys with wives and daughters. Jackson Katz, a prominent social researcher, illustrates why. He's done it with hundreds of audiences:

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other.
Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'
Then I ask the women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine.
Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

(The first man to minor in women's studies at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, holds a master's degree from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and a Ph.D. in cultural studies and education from UCLA.)

HippieChick58 9 Sep 28
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

61 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

Can we at least mention the elephant in the room? That being how religion has instructed the cultural values so that women withhold sexual availability. Now we have men becoming mass murderers in response to their frustration.

As long as the underlying issues are self-censored, we shouldn't expect any improvement, and indeed, a worsening.

The corollary is that women also suffer as a result of their fear and inhibitions.

To some extent I agree, however, men should never "expect" that a woman will have sex with them. It has to be equal choice with equal veto. I may choose to have sex with you, but if you say no, then no is no, and vice versa. It is never a given that either side will choose to say yes. And I agree about religion. Religion has fucked everything up. And if men choose to be mass murderers from frustration, then something is really wrong with their socialization skills.

1

Interestingly enough I just finished reading "The Power" by Naomi Alderman. It's a futuristic novel about just this kind of role reversal.

Front cover blurbs include Margaret Atwood and Barack Obama.

1

That must be a powerful learning experience for the men. Thanks!

3

I would certainly say that some men only learn when it happens to the women they love. Then it all clicks. It clicked for me the minute I found out my former spouse was carrying my daughter. I'm kind of ashamed about that. But, we're getting better as a society. More progressive and diverse. Much in the way that religion is becoming more and more unpopular. Not that religion is the only thing to blame. This is just as much on our fathers, but not as much as it is on us indidually. Men need to teach their sons to respect women. They deserve it.

2

I used to take the same bus home at the same time every day. It stopped right in front of my building. I was stalked by someone who had gotten to know my schedule, where I lived, and the building I worked in. I started varying which buses I took and taking the train sometimes instead.

4

My daughter grew up with two brothers. She has a mean streak from being teased by her Bros and their friends. She took 4 years of Ninjutsu with her Military Intelligence father. He thought she would benefit by not being afraid of hitting or being hit. She added Crossfit when she started College. She went to Europe alone for 7 weeks when she was 19 and had a great time with a Europass and a youth hostel itinerary she set up on line. Most American girls don't go to the ladies' room alone at that age. I overheard her talking with a girlfriend as they got ready to go out to YBOR City in Tampa. They close the streets at night and all the older kids and young adults party. My daughter's friend asked her if she wasn't afraid to wear such a blatently sexy outfit to YBOR. My daughter answered that dressing that way was considered aggressive. She pointed out that predators were after prey, not confident strong girls. It's not just the boys that need to be raised differently. Girls need to learn how to fight. I don't mean catfighting. I mean the kind that puts a potential rapist in the hospital.

1

Thank you, I never heard that before.

4

The thing about this issue that sickens me is that I'm automatically labeled as a potential threat, by virtue of my gender. The last thing I want to do is hurt anyone... but how do I show that? Wear an "Absolutely Harmless, Trust Me" t-shirt?

Yes, sadly you are. You show that you are harmless by understanding females may be wary of you, give them/us space. Don't show aggression towards us or anyone. Talk to us, but more importantly listen to us (which I can see that you're doing.) And take it slow, trust is earned over time. No, a T-shirt isn't going to work, anyone can buy or make a t-shirt.

One of first things I my daughters; is when a man tells them , "Trust me ," it's time for them to run ,

@Cast1es I laugh, but it's not funny... it's true.

2

I think Dr. Katz would have more integrity if he had asked the initial question as "What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being assaulted?" Adding the term sexually into the question slants the results towards his desired outcome. Imagine if someone asked the question to woman how many of them worry about being kicked in the balls and used that as the premise to some point they were trying to make about how life is unfair towards men. That is not to minimize the actual increased danger towards smaller people less capable of defending themselves while at the same time being more of a target. Just a comment on the leading low integrity way in which points are typically made today. I think they should make all doctorate candidates performing and publishing research to take courses in ethics and acknowledge the damage of leading people to their perspective through planned deceit.

The answer is, I take a lot of the same steps women take. Watch where I park, mind my surroundings, watch the people around me, have an improvised weapon at hand (if I'm not actually armed), vary the routes I drive...

I'm thinking that this is much like the Black Lives Matter issue. No one is saying that men do not suffer violence but that women suffer violence to a much greater degree. Yes. Violence against men happens. However, we need more focus on violence against women.

The term he used was , "being sexually assualted ," which IS gender neutral , so does not , slant the question , towards , as you suggested , an inaccurate outcome . Yes men can be sexually assualted , but the frequency , men have to face it , is significantly less than what women face .

2

That's painful to read. Reminds me of the years I was bullied.
I always had a knife, watching for trouble constantly when I went outside. Wore clothes it would be easy to sprint in, left the school at lunch so I could eat in peace and barely make it back in time to avoid people. Getting home afterwards involved leaving from different doors, taking long trips around town to throw them off.

It was awful, but it ended and the worst that could happen was they'd use me for target practice with rocks. I can't imagine what I'd be like to live with that sense of pursuit my entire life.

Not that it's entirely safe now.
Once or twice a year I get chased by a pack of shouting, barking young men when I jog. Strangers, probably harmless, not that I'll ever let them catch me to find out.

4

Wow! I just read the comments. Back in 2008 I went to China for a month. I was in Chengdu (where the pandas are) At 10:30PM I did what any Australian man would do and walked a lady to the bus stop. We went through a park. The lighting in Chinese parks is solar and so not very bright. But enough to see the path and recognise people. To my surprise there were young women walking through the park by themselves. Why am I reading all these comments from women in the "land of the free"? Perhaps you should live in a uncivilised country with no "freedoms".

In the early 80s I never thought twice about walking anywhere in Germany alone. However, in the USA, on military bases or civilian community I was not comfortable walking alone after dark. Currently where I live now I will walk in my neighborhood alone during daylight. I don't walk any distance alone after dark anywhere.

2

I've read, I think, the majority of posts here (62).
The ladies' posts are a majority of descriptions of traumatic experiences happening to themselves, a daughter, or a friend. So, is this a true sample of the day-to-day reality for most women? Or, is this a place that attracts victims. I'm asking this in a non-judgemental mindset. Please don't be offended.

I would say that a majority of women have had experiences, not just women in this forum. I can't say that I've had any experiences that stick out for me, very small minor ones, but it's a shame that I feel lucky to have not experienced it. I should feel lucky to not have had them... they should just not happen at all.

I truly believe every woman you know either has such an experience or has/had a close friend who had such an experience. They just don't talk to you about it. But on this site I think women feel safer to discuss it openly.

Sounds about right. Most every woman Ive got to know well enough for her to open up to me, on this site or elsewhere has a story or 3. Its disgustingly common, and severely underreported.

@Charity I share your pain. Hugs

The victims , are not the ones taking these precautions , The victims are the ones who did not take these precautions . These are those who , may have learned , at a high cost , what happens when you do not guard yourself . Not saying that all men are violent . But the ones who are , usually take on more than one victim , overall .

As others have stated, 1 in 3.
So yeah there are a lot of women who've had at least 1, the average was reported at 3. Add to this the recent statistics that over the last four generations over 63% have been abused in America and you'll see a seriously fucked up multi-generational trend.

[americanspcc.org]

Like global warming, this isn't just a "libs" whiny talking point that corporate media and the "toxic" conservative crowd can start claiming is hurting their "rights" and "free speech".

It is a epidemic.

1

Thank you for the reminder.. I do try and have empathy for this, but its good to see things from another's point of view every so often.

5

A few days after i was assaulted when i was 12 by a family friend who lived with us, i had to go to an official police interview. When getting ready, my mother told me not to wear bright lipstick. "We don't want them [the police] thinking you were asking for it."

I quit wearing feminin or revealing clothes at that point.

3

This makes me smad (sad and mad.)

3

Every morning I get dressed and ask my partner, "Is this ok? Not too revealing, not too short?" For exactly that reason.

nice, remind me the commercial of then President Lincoln being asked by his wife about a dress... does it makes me short? does it makes me fat? and him putting faces unable to dare to tell the truth, so be careful what you ask for but... put him on the spot!!! Very Nice!

@GipsyOfNewSpain You miss the point. It is asked so I am sure I can never be accused of attempting to dress to provocatively.

@Amisja I missed the point and my apology but that shows what you have to be conditioned about... you shouldn't be afraid of being too provocative to the point of driving an asshole beyond his threshold. You have the right to dress as you want. Regardless of men desires. I hope you understand my point that I am siding with your freedom not with the assholes containment.

2

To the extent even 15 year old kings vested by god will go to make sure there will be no queen ruling the land. He, he, ha, he. And he Died!!!! Granted the grown men educating him and managing the country for him had a lot to do with his behavior.

Don't you think it immature find the premature death of a king funny? It was always traditional for a king reign a country, beside which, the young king did ultimately allow a Queen reign, although the traditional laws of primogeniture would still require that the first-born son would always be king.

Perhaps you would like pause for thought before mocking the traditions and customs of another country and culture?

2

Leave it to you Hippiechick58. Props.
I bought 2 properties with acreage so I don't have to deal with humanity. One is located in a sparsely populated area. I have self defence training so I worry little for myself. My advise to "him"? DON"T!

Jeez.
Between you & @hippiechick58 , I'm going to stay in my compound.
😉

@bigpawbullets That's where I stay. In my compound. Haven't had any trouble with males since 1998. Don't leave the compound. It's dangerous out there. =0}

@Countrywoman
We've grocery delivery available from our local supermarket & pharmacy. And of course, there's always Amazon. So you rarely need to leave "The Compound". But we do. We acknowledge the dangers out "There", and have taken steps to mitigate them.

6

For the benefit of the men reading this thread, I feel like I should add: I don't generally smile at men I don't know. It's not because I "hate" men in general, or even that I don't trust men in general--it's that I care so much about potentially catching the eye of the one person that maybe wants to hurt me that I don't have anything left to invest in caring about the hundreds of people whose feelings are maybe hurt because I didn't smile back at them.

Honestly, IDNGAF if you think I'm a stuck-up bitch. I care about staying alive, and unraped, unbeaten, unstalked, unharassed. It's worth it. Anyone who wants to guilt me over this is not someone I want to be around.

I think we all got the message in your original post. "Remain well clear of @stinkeye_a!"

5

We know what kind of scum Brett Kavanaugh and Donald Trump are, we know exactly what their kind are like and we shun them for the twisted and perverted weaklings that they are. Please don't make the mistake of lumping us in with the misogynists because we aren't, we're feminists just like you. Don't accept all women as feminists by default either, we know that isn't the case, many are more sexist against their sisters than Brett Kavanaugh ever could be and they do this consciously.

3

Bullshit ! That's how we all stay safe from any crime. Your paranoid! You need to back away from the #MeToo for a short.

Thank you for mansplaining that. You don't have a clue. We're not paranoid in the least, this is reality for women across the globe.

@HippieChick58 But which is more likely? That I'm a bizarre mutant or typing this from an alternate dimension, or that maybe it doesn't happen as often as folks are saying it is? We only see what others point out and not the countless people who go about their lives, day in and day out, completely uneventful. That's human nature. It's reality for too many women, as even one is too many, but not every last female or female-presenting human on the planet, which is what this movement is coming dangerously close to implying. Extremism will only damage its goal.

so... you make sure not to wear high heels, do you, sir? i am glad for you. you check your back seat before you get in a car? how much thought do you give this? do you by any chance know how much more likely a woman is to be assaulted, sexually or otherwise, than a man? it might be worth checking that out before you make a further fool of yourself.

g

1

This is excellent. Thanks for sharing

2

I am boggled and not surprised at the same time. Honestly, just because you reached a certain age doesn't mean that you stop learning.

2

The right post at the right time. I am a man who actually tries to imagine all the safety measures a woman has to think about and I could only come up with maybe a quarter of the precautions listed here. Frightening and frustrating AF!

3

It’s really very easy to see things from your own perspective. I can honestly say that I’ve never thought about protecting myself from any kind of sexual attack, but I’m very conscious of what could happen to my daughter. I’m aware of the possibilities, but this is an eye opener. Thanx.

Ditto! I have a daughter in college far away from home and I worry constantly!

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:188759
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.