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It seems atheists DOMINATE this site, despite the fact it's an agnostic one. There's a BIG difference between the two, but it's always being obscured by people who want to insinuate themselves into agnostic discussions and poison them with negativity and pessimism, all the while claiming to be "agnostic atheists." NONSENSE. They say religion is false. Likely, beyond reasonable doubt, no dispute, but how do they KNOW? They say death is The End. Really? Did a burning bush tell you that? They say the deeds of bad people go unpunished. Regrettably that may be the case; then again, maybe not. But not according to them. To them, atheism IS a religion; they make their statements with such absolutist finality they sound exactly like the people they criticize.
That's okay, I say, like the theists they have every right to their opinion. Somewhere. What strikes me oftentimes the similarity between death as The End, and death as the gateway to hell. SOME atheists aren't that down on it, saying it's okay if we just disappear. SOME are pretty bummed about it. But they all agree it's a FACT. Who says?
Atheists are SO sure they malign those who point out they may be overreacting to their oppressive, rigid, doctrinaire past, or simply substituting their own ideology for that one.
The great thing about agnosticism, which seems to have escaped them, is ANYTHING is possible. Think about that for a minute, while I add qualifiers. Except for those things which can be ruled out as being physically impossible (miracles), for instance, there are potentially whole "dimensions," spectrums outside the range of our five senses. We can't prove they exist, but we can't prove they don't either. There are phenomenon like telepathy, extrasensory perception, and psychic abilities which have been circumstantially shown to be not only possible, but very hard to deny. Reincarnation? Hundreds, maybe THOUSANDS of books have documented people with verifiable memories, specific, factual memories, of things they could not POSSIBLY have knowledge (and no coaching). Crop circles can't be dismissed as two men with strings and shovels in a field. Aliens can't be automatically ruled out. There is SO MUCH we do not know, no belief in "God" necessary. Much of what I'm talking about, wide swaths of it even, might be bullsh*t, unjustified mutterings by looney tunes dreamers or charlatans, but ALL of it? Despite what some atheists say, that's just ridiculous. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you can lump it in with purely faith-based hokum and dismiss it out of hand. To say ANYTHING is absolutely, positively the truth is to replace one " belief system " with another "belief system," just changing the words.
There ARE, to be sure, areas of agreement between agnostics and atheists. They agree there a 99.9999...% certainty there is no such thing as heaven and hell, for instance. No chance a supernatural entity dreamed up the chaotic madness on this planet. The list goes on and on.
But just because we can rule out some things does NOT mean we can ignore good indications some things are worthy of consideration, without being castigated as someone who hasn't "let go" of superstitious religiosity. Some of these atheists, in fact, sound like Old Testament prophets in reverse! No, God isn't going to smite you, but something will, then you die and begone with you! You're nothing! An insignificant speck on the arse of the universe! Well, maybe. Certainly plausible. But then again, maybe not. Believing many things are worth mulling over, investigating, talking about, doesn't mean they're true, but it doesn't mean they're false, either.
I hope our atheist friends don't bring down their righteous wrath on me for speaking so forthrightly, but I'm fed up with their orthodoxy. I have NO hope this will be the case, but it is my fervent longing that henceforth they make clear the things they say are their OPINION, when appropriate, and not fact. That they pause and reflect before they say the same unverifiable, unknowable, unsubstantiated things of which they accuse our enemies, who are legion.
I don't mind at all if you're a nihilist, say; certainly an understandable point of view. But to say life is DEFINITELY meaningless is stretching it, don't you admit? Aren't you contracting and narrowing your mind, closing it off just a hair, perhaps, if you aver CATEGORICALLY extraterrestials didn't mess with our DNA, creating humans out of primordial men? Just sayin'...
Anyway, I feel better now...if anybody thinks I'm talking specifically about them, I assure you, insist vehemently, I am not! I'm talking in vague generalities about no one in particular. This is just an impression plucked out of the air and offered humbly as a possible topic for discussion.

Storm1752 7 Mar 25

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Maybe yes, maybe not? How about giving you nothing and say - it is a million dollars. Maybe yes, maybe not? Religion is the stupidest, most dangerous idea humans ever invented.

zesty Level 7 Mar 29, 2019

Nobody wants to read a wall of words.

I learned about paragraphs in the second grade.

Looks like I’m in good company 🙂

I do because unlike polished short bits insulting people I prefer content. And I do not need paragraphs to read words. Sure its nice but really?

I know. I hate that about myself. I DID make it into paragraphs...but I have no excuse.
And I've decided I'm going to answer my detractors if it takes all night. They're going to say all kinds of horrible things about what was just an appeal for nuance, balance, and open-mindedness.
I tried to be fair and reasonable, but some people build these ideological prisons, lock themselves in, and refuse deliverance. Or something like that.

@Quarm If you think I insulted you, I'm sorry you feel that way. All I was saying was, atheists convinced beyond question their opinions are unassailable should consider lightening up and not take themselves so deathly seriously. Within the halls of reason there is room for many schools of thought. Instead of looking for THE truth, maybe they should think a little more like agnostics and be open to the notion there IS no truth, only opinion, about most things.

@Quarm, @BohoHeathen A "religion" can be defined loosely as a belief system to which one invests supreme importance. But narrowly, atheism us a quasi-religion, or an " anti-religion" with all the trappings of the real thing. Agnostics, on the other hand, SIMPLY DON'T KNOW if there's a god or gods, or what that very word might mean, except to say, "Who knows?" Each individual agnostic is rebellious against the very IDEA human beings know ANYTHING about such matters. If there is anything to comprehend, it is so far beyond what our brains can fathom, we can be said to know nothing. I am satisfied the "God" of Yahweh and Allah and the Father and all the rest are pure fiction. Do I KNOW that? I'm teetering...I'm so tempted to say, 'Yes, I'm 100% sure." In fact...damn! Yes, okay? Of THAT I'm positive! Same with most of the other theological underpinning of the whole rotten edifice.
But that's it! That and other similar fables like Midas, the goose and the golden egg. I'm sure lots of other things. Like the 2nd Amendment makes sense. Not that I don't approve of gun ownership! I do!

@Storm1752 Dude I was not referring to you was referring to all of these people acting like because you did not write in paragraphs your ideas are somehow less valid or interesting. Too me they are being lazy and insulting a combination I detest in any person(s).

@Quarm Thanks.


I really miss the yawn emoji.

Or maybe the "shrug".....

@bigpawbullets I didn't say I was creating the Bible, here. That was made up over centuries. And how could they make up the "Egyptian Captivity" out of whole cloth and not get called on it? Pretty impressive. A towering figure like Moses? Solomon? David? ANYBODY??? Nope. Just some guy in a tent. Probably high on peyote, or something. Simply awe-inspiring how they duped, and continue to dupe, millions. Absolutely, literally, unbelievable.


Here, have a snickers and no god

During lean times, I confess, I DID steal Snickers bars from the 7-11. Yummy.



This site isn’t primarily for Agnostics, despite the name.

And honestly.... who cares?

Since when does an opinion about something hurt anyone?

Even if there is a god I couldn’t give two shits about him/her/it/them

“poison them with negativity and pessimism, all the while claiming to be "agnostic””

It’s just a message board bro.... chill

I don't believe there's a "god." Do you think I'm insane?

I’ll assume that’s rhetorical

@Storm1752 I think the entire human race is too one extent or another insane. That is the price for self aware intelligence.

@Quarm Certainly a valid perspective. Under the circumstances, I wholeheartedly agree. BUT if we're all insane, doesn't that invalidate the word itself?

@Storm1752 Maybe though their are degrees. Like our functional sociopath of a president.

Yeah, I need to chill. I nervously sip on my glass of water...I gotta relax, take a pill, drink a warm glass of milk with Pepto Bismol...lay down and apply a hot water bag to my cold, clammy head...ahhh...
Thanks. Feeling much, what was that you said? Something about this site NOT being primarily for agnostics??? Well, see, nobody told me! I thought, well, "," pretty clear on THAT one! Damn! Fooled again! In that case, allow me to stand corrected. Again. For the, like, hundredth time this month alone. Appreciate it. I'll just slink back into my cave now. I take it all back.


First, paragraphs. Please.

Second, I’m an agnostic athiest. I’m sorry it bothers you that people have different uses for words.

Third, “ANYTHING is possible, except...” That’s just funny by itself. No explanation needed.

Overall: F-
Please see the teacher after class.

I qualified ANYTHING. Of course some things are impossible. I said that.

@Storm1752 I love how people keep harping on the paragraph thing like that discounts your thoughts. I actually agree with everything you wrote.

@Quarm The paragraph thing is not a critique on the contents of the words, but a comment on their presentation. No one is saying otherwise.

If someone can’t be bothered to present text in a way a grade school student is expected to, then I can understand why someone would want to skip it entirely.

@indirect76 I do not disagree except this is the internet and basically a chat room. And I have seen plenty of people refer to the paragraph issue with the obvious intent to discount/ignore the content of the persons post. Too me that is lazy. If you do not want to read it why even comment? Or if your only comment is an insult what is the value of that?

You're entitled to your opinion; I respectfully disagree, and I base that on MY definition of 'atheist,' which I'm quite sure you disagree with. And this goes back to the familiar debating points...I won't go there. To ME (and I'm speaking only for myself, based on actual verbiage used) an atheist is SURE many things are false he cannot prove to be false. I'm not talking about the familiar no-brainers like heaven and hell, miracles, etc., but other things they can't possibly know. I SHARE many of those OPINIONS, but not others. There's room for open-minded discussion. What REALLY bothers me is the grim, unbending certainty. It's depressing, JUST AS DEPRESSING AS RELIGION. To me that "proves" it's wrong.

@Storm1752 So I actually tend to agree with you on this. I would not assert that god does not exist, something I would call an anti-theist. Then you go on to say things I can’t get behind. You tend to paint with a large brush without recognizing that there are lots of varying viewpoint for people that hold that position.

You have a point at the core of what you are saying, unfortunately it’s hidden in this massive wall of text. My opinion is that it’s not an effective way to communicate.

Here is a quote from Antoine de Saint-Exupery that I think applies.

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”


And what exactly is your definition of agnostic? 500 words or less. Thanks

Someone who has an open mind to everything which cannot be proven false. God as a concept cannot be, but the God of religion can be, because it is a self-contradiction which cannot be reconciled.

@Storm1752 so your mind is open to the tooth fairy, leprechauns, unicorns and every god ever worshiped by every civilization that ever existed? hmm. and by the way, atheist dot com was taken. i'm not saying that's why this site is called agnostic dot com, but it's possible. my mind is open to that possibility. meanwhile, name notwithstanding, this is not a site exclusively for agnostics. in fact, it has a mirror site called humanist dot com. meanwhile, the site cites some principles, and the first two are:

  1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
  2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.

so while being open-minded is a good thing, it is also important to understand the odds. the odds of there being a deity are so staggeringly low that some of us don't feel like calling ourselves agnostics because that might imply that we think there MIGHT be a god, or even care whether or not there is one. here is what isaac asimov said on this subject:

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.” while i myself have since the age of 15 called myself an atheist and never have called myself an agnostic, still i feel as asimov did. i do not find what he said negative. i do not find atheism negative. (i find rants that pick on atheists rather negative.) by the way, there is no such thing as atheist orthodoxy. it's not a religion.


@Storm1752 Perhaps you could define "open" then.

In lacking belief for OR against any deities, you could say that my mind is therefore "open" but I think it's more accurate to just say that I don't form beliefs that I can't substantiate. It isn't a question of being "open minded" but of having basic standards of intellectual integrity.


I just don't understand why so many people are obsessed with discussing the differences between agnostics and atheists (if there are any).

It's not even a discussion on the original post


I'm not sure, but it reads to me, that your problem isn't really with atheists, it is that you're uncomfortable with death. Or maybe with death being the finale.

Some people need to believe in something post-mortem, others like myself, are most comfortable with death being the end. (If you'd read The Tibetan Book of the Dead, you'd likely not want an afterlife ... scary shit!) Regardless where you are or what bothers you most about the Atheists you've encountered here, the best thing you can do is find somewhere to spend your time and not feel as you appear to feel. This site is pretty much Atheist centered, I think. I usually like more diversity, but the groups are so varied/vast, that subject matter wins over diversity for me.

No matter where we are, if we're not happy, we can change our location. Whether online or off. ?

Yes, death IS a troublesome reality. It WOULD be comforting to believe "I" will somehow survive it. I'm sure you'd be pleased, as well, if it were somehow "proven" we live forever. Yay! Alas, even the great Houdini couldn't escape it's diabolical clutches! So it's a very real possibility we will simply expire, kaput! If we're old enough at the time, without friends. That WOULD suck.
Then again, maybe we go on, somehow. If we reincarnate, it won't be "you," from what I gather, or "me.," but some other edition of ourselves? Kinda hazy on the details.
Either way, YOU, SeaGreenEvez, and ME, Storm1752, will will be gone. Few will care. Or maybe something else. It really doesn't matter what we think, does it? What will be, will be. Lacking concrete, irrefutable evidence, only some intriguing tidbits which SEEM indicative, we just don't know.
But your POINT is well taken: I'm not happy about how it's set up. Who is? Why do living things reproduce at all? It's so futile! What kind of "god" would dream up the torture-chamber kind of life we endure?
Even WITH reincarnation it seems like a horrendous crock of crap! Hey, if you think I'm convinced this isn't some gigantic cosmic nightmare of a joke, you are wrong! If there's some "master plan" in all of this, it's a right sadistic one! Am I unhappy about it? YES! Absolutely! Does this mean there's no "personal" God who gives a sh*t? Yes. In my opinion, for sure. No or precious little doubt. Okay? I never said otherwise.
BUT, and I sigh as I underline this three times, WHO KNOWS???
More to MY point, who cares? Nothing we can do about it. We already know the best human attempts over the span of human history have been exposed as frauds.
Even more to my point (if you haven't noticed i'm making this up as I go), our only hope at ANY kind of understanding is to clear away the wreckage of all the lies and see what, if anything, is left.


Debate any damned thing you like. It's your time to spend doing whatever the
hell you please.

I'm an atheist. I was born an atheist, just like everyone else is born an atheist.
Everything, and anything, else has to be taught.
Or, more to the point, indoctrinated.
I do not feel the need to debate these facts.

I've always thought agnostics were/are pussies who can't commit.
You either believe, or you do not. Anything else is just hedging and vacillation.
Another issue I do not feel the need to debate.


Not mutually exclusive


Words...words...more words.

This is just a post, not an essay. A wall of text is never a good way to present a topic for discussion. Knock this down to 1/3rd its size, add a few illustrations, maybe a link to some midget porn and I'll consider reading it.

And paragraphs. Don't forget the paragraphs. Better too many than not enough.

Midget porn? Ummm...I won't reject it out of hand. Show me evidence it "exists" and I'll accept it. Otherwise, I'll have take your word for it. I'm not comfortable with that. Now, is it "hot?" I will postulate, sight unseen, it is not.


But to say life is DEFINITELY meaningless is stretching it, don't you admit? Aren't you contracting and narrowing your mind, closing it off just a hair, perhaps, if you aver CATEGORICALLY extraterrestials didn't mess with our DNA, creating humans out of primordial men?

I’m surprised here. I’m a pretty militant atheist: I find the evidence materially unconvincing so don’t believe. Like pretty much every atheist I know - not all but the large majority - I also accept I can’t know, so I’m agnostic too. I’m never categoric about that stuff. I’ll challenge anyone who suggests it might be true for any evidence that even makes proposing the hypothesis worthwhile. But we can’t say definitively. How can we?

I’ve genuinely not seen any absolutism here that I can remember but then I’d probably not remark on it if I could.

You're another agnostic who thinks it's cool to think of himself as an atheist. A much sexier label! If there isn't definitive evidence disproving something, I prefer to remain intrigued. Makes the world a more interesting place. YOU prefer to throw cold water on everything not demonstrably true. Purely a choice of half-empty, half-full. But you'd disagree with that. I was like you, arguing every comma .Wouldn't be fun at a dinner party, it sounds like. The irony is, you're no doubt a live wire.


You're another agnostic who thinks it's cool to think of himself as an atheist. A much sexier label!

And you're wrong and a bit aggressive. You use terms like "poison" and shout at us a lot and then wade in unnecessarily like that? Hmmm...think you need a mirror mate. And a cold shower and a deep breath.

If there isn't definitive evidence disproving something, I prefer to remain intrigued

Bertrand Russells chocolate teapot? I'm not intrigued by anything that has zero evidence. I'm negatively intrigued, like anti-intrigued when there is a whole industry making unevidenced and clearly bogus truth claims. And making loads of cash out of gullible people who desparately want to believe stuff that is unevidenced.

Makes the world a more interesting place

Not to me. Makes it full of bogus truth claims that are being profited from, by charlatans. There has to be some small reason for a claim to be considered. Something. Anything. Just not some child who cannot distinguish between what they want to be true and what has the slightest chance of being true. And charlatan making a load of cash out of it.

YOU prefer to throw cold water on everything not demonstrably true

Patently not the case. And please don't keep shouting. It's really rude.

Purely a choice of half-empty, half-full. But you'd disagree with that

Yes I would.

I was like you, arguing every comma

Then you weren't like me.

Wouldn't be fun at a dinner party, it sounds like

A crass and stupid insult from someone who moans about tone. try a dictionary or something for the phrase 'no self awareness'.

The irony is, you're no doubt a live wire

Have you thought about comparing your own tone trolling and your own actual posts?


I like Jordan Peterson on this subject. When people ask him if he believes in god he responds by asking “what do you mean by ‘believe’ and what do you mean by ‘god’?”



Thanks for posting this coherent observation. See the link to the scientific method. Focus on the first statement in the section that is called "Some key underpinnings to the scientific method". I have included that first statement below. It states:

"The hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable, according to North Carolina State University. Falsifiable means that there must be a possible negative answer to the hypothesis."

Some Atheists will argue they don't need to falsify the existence of intelligent design regarding the universe. They argue that a lack of verification is all that's needed. This of course is an inaccurate understanding of the scientific method.


In other words, "intelligent design" can't be proven or disproved, so no certainty. Opinions, though, are welcome. My opinion? If God is impersonal energy and THAT equals mass multiplied by an inconceivable speed (an equation impossible to understand), fine. I'll buy it. I don't UNDERSTAND it, but that's okay, too. The physical laws of materiality are orderly and compatible with one another, but how did it come into being? The Big Bang? Where did THAT come from? We can study it forever and never get any closer to the answers to these unanswerable mysteries.
That, to me, is God.
That's why religion is so faulty. If human beings want to devise laws, etc., don't say God bestowed them to people on a mountain. In that case, new scientific revelations can't affect them. That's stupid.

@Storm1752" Intelligent design cannot be proven or disproven" ?: Doesn't evidence come into it somewhere. You should read "The blind watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins. We may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of some "god" or "higher power" but there is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design. In fact evolution shows the opposite.

@Storm1752 Intelligent design Mmmmm. Please give me your wisdom on the laryngeal nerve in a shark, a man (Home sapien) and a giraffe. Can you please explain how it is an intelligent design. (Yes, I'm an atheist so you need not waste time on that, just the expiation on the nerve will completely convince me on intelligent design.)

@rainmaker-47 Never thought much about it, except it's bs.

@Storm1752 Not bullshit. I understand you may not have given it thought. Man, sharks and the giraffe all have the laryngeal nerve. So can you please explain how it is an "intelligent design".

@rainmaker-47 I don't believe intelligent design is a thing. What are you talking about. Just because there is harmony in the physical could it be otherwise. Doesn't mean a God created it.


I solved this problem, at least in my own mind, by rejecting the term "atheist" altogether. We do not need a special word to cover one small aspect of disbelief any more than we need special words to describe those who do not believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. We all have a list of beliefs driven by evidence, hearsay, or necessity that we use to function in life. If something fails in meeting the criteria, it doesn't get on the list. Someone who is experienced, discriminating, bright, and critical would not likely put god on that list. No need to use any other adjectives to describe that someone.


I have been an atheist for 42 years, not an agnostic for what its worth. One thing I do not do is debate my atheism or my reason for it. Nor do I impose my atheism on anyone, politics yes, atheism no. Lol. I know what I know, I know what I believe, but have no inclination to convince anyone else to my way of thinking.

In Science and mathematics we do know and recognize that there are absolutes.


I belong to a Freethought Toastmasters Club, and our founding member has often explained the definitions of Atheism And Agnosticism. Theism means having a belief. Gnosticism means having knowledge. The A- means "a lack of". So, in my eye EVERYONE is Agnostic, because NOBODY KNOWS anything FOR SURE, do they?

Storm1752, I completely understand your frustration with the atheists who feel they need to grasp so tightly to their Nothing concept that they seem like they're in a religious cult. Perhaps they need to cling to it like a life raft because they've just recently left religion or something ~ I really have no idea, but I do try to get them to THINK about considering the concept of a "something else", just for fun, in a sci-fi kind of way. Many animals can see colors or hear sounds that humans can't, you know? There's every possibility of there being more dimensions than we are or ever will be aware of, where our energy could go...
I know it sounds woo-woo. That's why I tell them to think about it in a Science Fiction way if they need to, but when they open their mind to the idea, they tend to be a lot less rigid about everything else. At least, that's been my experience.
My Toastmasters club has lots of "Think on your feet" exercises and mini-debates and role reversal techniques we use to help new people get comfortable with speaking out about their lack of belief. Most of us came from Christian indoctrination and still want to maintain some sort of relationship with our family, but tell them we can no longer pretend to be someone we're not just so they'll be more comfortable around us. Being able to explain why in a calm manner is all a part of the bravery of coming out to others, don't you think?

I do. I was writing you something so amazing, cogent, and dead-on fantastic it took my breath away, but I somehow touched the wrong part of the screen and it went, 'Poof!'
So allow me to synoposize. First, I love you. Sincerely. Without reservation. ALMOST as much as I love myself. Which is lot. Despite what others think. I could go on forever about the esteem in which I hold myself. I love you like that. This is because I'm deeply flattered. Thank you.
Second, I don't talk to my family. Not because I dislike them. I don't. I wish them well. Sort of. If I DID talk to them, the subject probably wouldn't come up, because they're not religious, maybe even agnostic themselves.
The only family I talk to is my 96-year-old mother, a deeply pious Catholic.
I used to engage her in spirited debate but lost interest because 1) the result was predictable and boring, 2) I saw no point in upsetting her. She asked me last time we talked about something on Catholic TV about the New Atheists. She was REALLY asking me if I was one. I'm not, but close enough for me to sidestep the whole subject. Why bother? She was a good mother in her own way, no need to freak her out. The rest of them do that, blaming her for their dysfunction and unhappiness. I don't. In fact, I'm happier now than I've ever been.
Hey, I'm taking down your information. I'm going to look into your group. Right now I'm tired! Been a long day. My email is Send me something about it, please. Let's talk.
I DO agree with everything you said. If I didn't I'd say so.


There has to be a link between this whole agnostic vs atheist thing and narcissism. Like the people who try to divide the two are so focused on themselves, and they consider themselves to be agnostic, that they have to find a way to divide themselves from atheists. I mean, I don't even know what else would be driving this train of thought of "us vs them". It definitely isn't open mindedness..

Are you saying I'm narcissistic? True. In my own defense I would only add, everybody is to one degree or another. I am the most important person in the world, to me. To everybody else I'm unimportant, irrelevant, not worth mentioning. Even my circumspection is calculated to draw attention to myself. If I give change to a beggar on the street, it's to make ME feel good about myself. So, yes, nailed it.

@Storm1752 They say admitting it is the first step to recovery.. but seriously, it seems like those higher in the narcissistic spectrum are the kind of people who try to divide people. It's shit like that the leads to racism, nationalism, and bigotry. You'll probably be happier in life if you stop acting like half of America with building a wall to divide.

Or perhaps agnostics feel they are as similar to theists as they are to atheists...

@Storm1752 , One thing that occurs to me is that many people who were indoctrinated from baptism on up often have to let go of their belief a little at a time.
My parents sent me and my 6 younger brothers and sisters to a Catholic grade school and then a Catholic High School too. After I graduated, I only went to church for family functions and holidays. When I moved away, I did not join a church. In my mid-20s my mom asked me if I was still "practicing" my faith; I told her I was still very spiritual, but not religious. I may have mentioned looking into my options...
Ten years later I was calling myself a Pagan or a Heathen. It was another 10 years before I embraced the Atheist/Agnostic term for myself.

I did not go the Unitarian route that some do ~ those who still crave regular community, I'm thinking. I guess I'm more of a loner.?

@Lb12star Never liked the words pagan and heathen. Too reactive. I tried UU...left me cold, like anything religious. Why do anything to mimic the Godophiles? And why go pick up trash to "prove" you're "good?" Just silly, like your parents are watching.


So tell me, please (and TL;DR) if your undecided about the existence of gods or heaven and hell, how do you live your life? Is it in accordance with the laws of every religion, or have you made up your own religion that says "If I live a good life I go to whatever version of heaven exists"?

1of5 Level 8 Mar 25, 2019

In my opinion there are no gods, no heaven or hell...I said that. Hell is impossible according to ANY reasonable scenario. A "God would be incapable of creating such a place. We both know this. For that matter, God would be incapable of creating this world. If there was a "God" earth would be a paradise. It isn't, thus, no god.

Why not make up your own religion? If God exists as an omniscient being we have no hope of conceiving of what that means with our limited understanding of the universe. So it does not really matter. What matters is action and effect.

@Storm1752 the hell? Now you sound like an atheist. I'm sure those words were somewhere in that wall of diatribe. Now I'm even happier I didn't finish it, since it appears you don't even know what you were bitching about.

@Quarm Why not, everyone else seems to make crap up.

@1of5 I love the Pastafarians, the Satanists. I am a firm believer if you cannot laugh at yourself your taking things way too seriously.


I have no definitive answer one way or the other, carpe diem.


I am an atheist and don’t believe in absolutes on much of anything. There is always the possibility that new evidence will be discovered to lead theories a different way. It’s kind of odd that you’re lumping all atheists together and then bashing them for being negative and rigid in their beliefs/the finality of them.

Well quite: who are these absolutist atheists the OP rails at?

You self-identify as an atheist. Your right. I used a very specific definition based on my subjective ideas: someone who is SURE God does not exist. I don't believe God exists, if you mean a personal God who answers prayers. But I'm not sure ANY God doesn't exist. However, I'm 100% positive hell doesn't exist. Why? Because ANY definition of "God" includes "goodness," and "justice," and a hell contradicts that. If you want to define God as evil, vindictive, sadistic, etc., that's different.


someone who is SURE God does not exist

There area vanishingly few atheists who define themselves like that though. But if a straw man maybe?

There are plenty who sound like that I grant. But they’re mostly not so definitive as to stick with that under challenge

So you're another agnostic with a crush on the word atheist. Your perspective is negative and pessimistic, but when pressed you admit you don't really know. Agnostic.

@Storm1752 I haven’t defined “God”at all. I’m reasonably certain that there is not some magical, all powerful, loving being that created everything, including war, famine, cancer, etc and just sits around watching the horrors progress. However, my views would certainly change if I was presented with evidence to the contrary. I’m able to admit that I don’t know everything and still be an atheist. What gives you the right to judge who and what atheists are? It seems to me that you posted here trying to pick a fight so that you could claim to have proven your point when atheists are understandably offended by your characterization of us and lash out. Every person is different and cannot be lumped into sweeping generalizations. I’ve met religious people that are truly awful people, but I also know religious people that are good and try to practice the love and acceptance that they preach. It would be unfair of me to lump them in with the bad ones solely based on my poor experiences. IMO, you could use a bit of self reflection and try to figure out why you are so angry at people that you don’t even know and want to tear others down for having a different view than you.


It’s simple...if you have evidence for a claim, present the evidence and make an argument. If your claim cannot be backed by evidence, you have a speculation and not an argument. If you’re upset your speculation (claim without evidence) isn’t taken seriously, don’t be offended personally.

For instance, if I insist there is a dragon in my garage that cannot be seen, heard, smelled, felt, does not displace air, does not change temperature, or cannot be verified by any other means of measurement, I should expect to not be taken seriously. I should ask myself why I’m making a claim without evidence.

Acree Level 4 Mar 25, 2019

I agree and what I think the original poster is talking about is that despite common misconception, if an atheist is to claim that there are no gods than they better also present evidence for there being no God. Not the absence of evidence but rather some experiment for other phenomena which clearly dismisses any possibility of God.

So while a theist carries a burden to prove their claim, in labeling oneself an atheist they are also making a claim and they also carry over to prove it. Viewed this way, and agnostic caries advantage in so far as they either don't make the claim either way or they simultaneously pursue both claims to find evidence for either one.

@TheMiddleWay, yep, we agree, and since there’s no way logicaly prove an absence of anything, the hardline atheist position is indefensible by default. Is that how you see it as well?


if an atheist is to claim that there are no gods than they better also present evidence for there being no God

But when it really comes down to it how many really claim that? I agree it can sound like it in the short cut versions of rehashed conversations we have but how many are 7/7 on Dawkins scale? Almost none

@OwlInASack, totally agree. I don’t engage in these arguments often but I’ve yet to witness a confirmed 7/7.

16% of members on our site are 100% sure that there is no god (via the profile stats). While not the exact question we are addressing, it is close enough to justify that there is a good percentage of atheists who do in fact claim there are no gods.


I find both the atheist and theist position indefensible but explorable; hence why I'm agnostic. 😉

@TheMiddleWay "The original poster" "posted" a question about religion being the root of evil. You guys are way off topic! Perhaps you could make your own post? Call it "the difference's between"

@TheMiddleWay, nice point ref site stat 16%. That is significant. All groups will have their outliers/fringe and that’s fine. Just not sure it’s worth getting so bent out of shape about it like the OP.

I give up. Can’t find a damn thing to disagree with you about despite my best effort!

The OP argument is not religion being the root of evil but one of epistemological certainty. Don’t fear, we’re right where we should be.

@Aaaaaatheist The OP waded in and discussed at length, angrily and with stupid insults, the differences. I think we're fine.

@TheMiddleWay Well fine... not a lot of substance to that though right?


16% of members on our site are 100% sure that there is no god (via the profile stats). While not the exact question we are addressing, it is close enough to justify that there is a good percentage of atheists who do in fact claim there are no gods

I didn't realise that and I take it back. That's pretty strong. And while no doubt there are sensible points to be made there, as a matter of principle, I refuse to rule out stuff that can't be proven.

Does the RCC god exist, who needs priests to wear purple on certain Fridays? Pretty confident not.

Does any greater being exist? No idea. No evidence of one. And the people making the claim are deeply suspect - which undermines their claim to the point I can dismiss it.

But could there coinceidentally, be something out there, hiding from us? Sure. There absolutely could be.

But no deity claim I've ever heard has the slightest chance of being true.

I'm open to the concept of god(s), not to a particular incarnation. As such, while I put little stock in yehovah or allah, I accept that something "like" them may exist and that as weird as it may seem, they may exist as well. I can't prove that this is not the case and thus I make no judgement that it isn't.

Having said that, I also don't live my life as if they could be real. I don't pray to EVERY god on the chance that one of them is real. But I do admit that when all hope is lost, I've done all I can, and I've no further solution in mind, I might drop a little prayer out there to whomever is listening just on the off chance. 😉


can't prove that this is not the case and thus I make no judgement that it isn't

I suppose I go a little further and make a judgement about the people making the claim. I grew up in a seriously unpleasant RCC cult. Those making the claim had a deep interest in it. That adds to the paucity of the argument. In hindsight the ridiculous details made it all pretty unlikely.

But - on the original theme: that's why I'm atheist. There's no evidence at all to support the truth claims.

I'm utterly indifferent as to wehether there is in fact a deity out there. Might be. Might not. No idea. Hence also agnostic.

But I'm pretty serious about those who make bogus claims and profit from it.


That's an interesting point. Yes, my agnosticism doesn't take into account the people, merely the claim. But I'm going to agree with you on this (as I did on your other post): if we examine a person and their claim has clearly alterior motives.. be it fame, fortune, or just wanting to be right... then I would maybe not so much dismiss their claim but dismiss the person and thus not give the claim grounds to even be dismissed! It simply isn't a valid claim in that case!

Case in point, I often butt heads with one of our members who is dead set on making the Bible be the explanation for everything, from science to history to psychology... everything! And he will say anything and make all sorts of claims in support of his ideas, especially when I've provided clear and tangible evidence that his ideas are wrong. In this case, I admit I've dismissed the person such that all his claims fall on deaf ears because I know he isn't creating these claims out of a self-consistent viewpoint, trying to build a foundation of knowledge... no, he is just throwing out wild idea after idea hoping one will stick and thus prove his initial assertion correct.

It's a grave error to think that being agnostic means we suffer fools and are willing to entertain any and all notions; we, or at least I, certainly don't!

@TheMiddleWay I think we're agreed.

I find all sorts of things amazing. But I'm too scarred to be able to let a charlatan or muppet just make wild claims for no good reason than they're either short of cash or haven't grown up.

My best mate - an amazing, truly amazing doctor and scientist (professor of neonatology in one of our leading teaching hospitals) is a devout RC. I just can't understand it. But he's a challenge to me. Because he has integrity and no axe to grind other than the usual personal investment in his history.

Now hanging out with him: that's good for me!

@Acree thank you! My sentiments in equal measure.

@Acree, @OwlInASack thanks! I'm just super happy that everyone discussing this.

Bah! Don't give up buddy! I'm sure in time I'll say something wholly disagreeable... I always do. 😉😀

And I think the OP just needed to vent; we all do sometimes. 😮


Great post - thanks for sharing. It's interesting reading all these reactions.

There are almost as many definitions of agnosticism and atheism as there are people. Because of such diversity of opinion, (to me) it's best to preface any post like this with your own terms and definitions just avoid confusion. If anyone disagrees with you, that's another thread. And any strident argument about what these two terms mean is a fool's errand, as it's known that dictionaries describe more of a word's common usage as opposed to its actual real meaning... for the most part. (to paraphrase Matt Dillahunty).

When I enter into such discussions, to keep terms clear, I'll sometimes pull out Richard Dawkin's scale, which I tweaked and modified. See here: []

Oh - and not to harp on it, but I like paragraphs too. 😉

Cheers bud.


Not as much difference as you might think but we always beat that same old dead horse again and again. Atheist or agnostic we would all believe in gods if there was sufficient evidence. So far evidence has never been found.

Agnostic and atheist are word plays of a sort. I am an agnostic atheist.


I am glad you are feeling better. I've engaged in this particular "discussion" of "but how do you KNOW" a little too many times. We would have to delve into the nature of knowledge and the meaning of knowledge. We don't have the same frame of reference.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter to me whether you are agnostic or atheist. As long as you behave in the way that does not harm others. So.... knock yourself out. Be agnostic. I hope you return the same favor to me.

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