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A lot of people here have arrived from religious backgrounds so I was wondering what your feelings are about abortion. If you had one would guilt follow you around for the rest of your life? What would it take for you to make that decision? I guess mostly women will answer this. Does the fetus have a soul?
For me, pregnancy is no guarantee of life, spontaneous abortions happen, late term ones do, rape would for sure be a reason to have one but there are also other situations in which I would basically because I don't believe there is a god to answer to after death.

K9Kohle789 8 Aug 7
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1

ABORTION IS TAKEN LIGHTLY IN THE NEW WOMEN'S LIB ARA

  1. It is a woman's right with legal restrictions
  2. This woman's right comes with a responsibility
  3. Motherhood has very high sanctity
  4. Therefore, pregnancy cannot be taken lightly
  5. Second trimester abortion should not be allowed.
  6. Exception such as rape, incest should be available
  7. Legal punishment for pregnant women who do not understand responsibility and abort illegally

What evidence do you have that "ABORTION IS TAKEN LIGHTLY IN THE NEW WOMEN'S LIB ARA"?

@itsmedammit When we say it it totally a woman's choice, that says it all. Once you are pregnant in a civilized society of laws, it is totally not your choice to kill a baby. Who said it is totally ok for a woman to make that choice? Not conservatives. It is the liberals. It is wrong.

@St-Sinner You said "taken lightly". I don't know anyone who views abortions lightly.

It is wrong for a man to force pregnancy and parenthood on a woman.

@itsmedammit
Wanting to do abortions after the first trimester is cruel and taking it lightly. Getting the power of motherhood comes with a responsibility. A woman must always be aware that this can happen and will have to bear responsibility. Exceptions should be available for rape and incest and possibly more but it is not only a woman's choice as it contended each time. What else does Pro-Choice mean? It is the woman's body and it is only the woman's choice?

We as a civilized society must decide what kind of society we want to be. Freedom to do anything?

@itsmedammit, Right Wing Troll from Texas. No need to argue, you would be wasting your time.

@Barnie2years Yeah, I am familiar with him. lol

@Barnie2years Is everybody who disagrees with you a right wing troll?

@St-Sinner Men need to engage in responsible sex.

@itsmedammit Men should but they do not and it will continue. So the answer is women should be allowed to abort randomly? How do you separate responsibilities? You make laws to discuss who was responsible for not wearing the condom? Do you have a solution other than giving women a full choice to abort?

@itsmedammit, @Barnie2years We are not any different from the extreme right wingers. We are extreme left wingers here. Bashing everything on the right. Why are we any better? This is a discussion platform to exchange ideas, not a hate group platform but we are making it one.

@St-Sinner, only the ones with devil horned icons! 😁 Or use circular, basically religious arguments with little to back up their position, kind of like religion does. You only want your freedoms to control others respected, not their freedom to choose for themselves. Pro Choice means exactly that, the freedom to make your own decision without some man telling you what you have to do.

@Barnie2years Nobody should have the freedom to do anything they want. Freedom based on humanity, decency and compassion make good laws. Freedom to abort babies just because it is your choice is not one of them. There are rules and laws about everything including school bullying but you do not want any control over abortion?

@St-Sinner, because a fetus is not a baby. If conservatives were a fraction as interested in actual babies as they are in forcing women to be incubators, there would be; universal health care for women and babies, better foster care systems, no separation of immigrant children from their parents, better policing of pedophiles, mandatory vaccinations with no exceptions other than medical, better enforcement of child labor laws just to get started. Before you worry so much about cell clusters that may (miscarriages are still the largest Enders of pregnancy) if left alone become a child, put all that energy into making the already living and breathing children’s lives better!

@Barnie2years
Once the heart starts beating fetus is a baby. It is a human life.

@St-Sinner in your opinion. Bye! You just keep blowing the same smoke and didn’t address the bulk of my question. If that is your belief, then don’t have an abortion. Also, petition your government to allow women, from their first positive pregnancy test, to be able to buy fetal life insurance, and lifetime guaranteed government child support. 😴

@Barnie2years I am making my point just like you are. Fetus is a life or not are just arguments. The medical truth is.. it is a life. The government means other people on the tax paying society. They will not fund irresponsible escapades. Don't even try.

@kodimerlyn You feel I am a troll because you don't agree with me passionately? We have become a hate group of progressives and liberals that bashes the other side no matter what the issue is, sees nothing good on the other side, is incapable of having a healthy discourse and think only my way is highway. Probably that's why. That is not how I became a progressive

Are you saying women can do anything with their pregnancies, can abort in even in the last term? That is evil. I will not abuse you like you did because I am not you. Just remember that and one day ask your parents why that is.

@kodimerlyn
Everything you said is disagreed to by many in the medical community. Now you disagreeing with science does not make you smart, does it?

This debate has been going on for long because this issue is not settled. You believe what you are saying is right while others don't. All others disagreeing with you are not dumb. It only established one fact, you should get some manners coaching that you missed early on.

Women should not be allowed to abort at their whim or choice. Being born a woman is a very special privilege and it cannot be abused.

While the issue is settled, I recommend strict abstinence for your types.

WHY does motherhood have "high sanctity"?
Are you aware many women do not even know they are pregnant in the first trimester?
And that a fetus cannot feel pain until the 3rd trimester anyways? What is your objection to 2nd trimester abortions based on? 😕

@demifeministgal
Because women grow the baby inside them, they nourish them, take care of them, go through labor, go through pain, take care of the young often without a man around and intimately care of the young and after they are grown. There are songs and stories written about mother's love. It is most unselfish and unparalleled to any other love. It should be taken seriously. I don't even want women to have sex, smoke, drink or take the trouble to go church during pregnancy 🙂

There are varying medical opinions on the issue and it is not settled. I say that keep all abortions on hold until we all agree. How's that?

@kodimerlyn Not to mention, scientists have managed to create beating hearts on their own. IF humans are nothing more than hearts, does that mean those engineered hearts cannot be killed? Not to mention, in the medical community, someone that is brain dead is considered legally dead. A fetus with no developed brain would not be a living person yet. I would say our personhood lies in our brains, not in our beating hearts. But good luck explaining that to a moronic Texan bible belter. heh

@demifeministgal You should be arguing with the medical community. This too important an issue to not take seriously and allow too much freedom on.

@St-Sinner The medical community does not agree with you though. If a person on life support with a beating heart is deemed as clinically dead, why would a fetus with no brain or an underdeveloped brain, be considered a living person?
This thought of life beginning with a heartbeat is not accepted in the medical field because they unplug the beating hearts of humans everyday when they are determined to have no thought. You do need a beating heart to have thought but a beating heart without thought is not a human that is the process of being - it's a biological mass with the potential to become a being.

@demifeministgal It is very controversial. Therefore, I proposed a total ban on abortions until we all agree. Not ok?

@St-Sinner Nope. You have no skin in the process. So it is easy for YOU to say to put all abortions on hold, you stand to lose nothing. A pregnancy can and often does negatively impact a woman's health and can lead to the death of each woman. Now if you were able to become pregnant yourself, your opinion may change.

@demifeministgal Whaat? Can you make a baby alone - naturally?

@St-Sinner I am just glad we are in separate countries and my country allows unrestricted abortions... I would need to escape if I lived in bible belt Murica... yikes! strength to non-religious women stuck in that area. :/

@St-Sinner Can cis-men get abortions? No. That is what I meant. You have no skin to lose in an abortion restriction.

@demifeministgal One day the world will see the light and think is it is not right to kill a life that depends on you, I am hoping.

@St-Sinner No, one day people will see the light and realize a woman's right to bodily autonomy matters and that we shall not grant special privileges to clumps of cells that we do not grant any other autonomous person. If a living person cannot use your body for survival against your will, than neither should a fetus be granted that right. Your special pleading fallacy is noted.

@demifeministgal You get pregnant because a man helped you become it. How can the decision be solely yours? What are we men? Sex objects or potted plants?

@St-Sinner Any man I have sex will know about my decision to remain childFREE so, if he abandons his right to autonomy when it is feasible for a man, aka before pregnancy occurs, that is his fault. Any man who is anti-choice ("pro-life" ) and decides to have sex with me has nobody to blame but himself. But then, I have these grown up discussions with partners prior to having sex. Cannot speak for those with high sex drives and in the hookup culture/prone to getting drunk/high and having reckless sex.

@demifeministgal See that is the problem. You may have answered my question constructively. We can not regulate some while we don't others. A law has to be applied to all on the topic. The cavalier attitude about sex and not taking responsibility for it is at the heart of the issue.

@St-Sinner Consider this thought experiment.... if you are honest with yourself, you would choose the baby... no alternative options, either one or the other!

@demifeministgal You are giving me a false choice. Dont do that. Be kind.

@St-Sinner Deflecting.... no such thing as a false choice.

@demifeministgal I want to break the rule, keep both and go to jail.

@St-Sinner OR rather, you refuse to address the hypothetical question as it is put forth to you because you refuse to be honest with yourself. Fair enough.

@demifeministgal Hypothetical? It is like living a nightmare and a dream that wake me up sweating. How could you?

17

What I, or any other woman, decides to do about our own reproductive lives,
is no one's business but our own.
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of it, they don't get to interfere or
inject their opinion, unless they are specifically asked.

There is no "right to life". Never has been one, never will be one.
Each woman is absolutely entitled to her own reasons, and no one else has
any right to pass judgment on whether her reasons are valid.
No pregnancy, in the history of pregnancy, has ever been guaranteed to
result in a live birth. Never has been. Never will be.

No gods. No soul.
No one's business. It doesn't matter if they think it is their business, it's not.
And it never will be.

14

Abortion should be legal and available to any woman for any reason she chooses. I've had two abortions in my lifetime. One at age 16 from being raped, and one at 23 when my fetus had some of it's organs growing outside of the body cavity. The first one I did not feel any regret about because I was not going to carry my rapists seed to term. The second one I felt mostly sadness because I wanted the baby and was in fact hoping for a little girl as I already had two wonderful little boys. I've never felt bad about either abortion because I felt they were a medical procedure that was necessary for my quality of life.

10

I do not believe life begins at conception. I have not had an abortion but I fully support abortion rights. The mother has rights too!

9

In a perfect world there would be no abortions, spontaneous or otherwise. Every pregnancy would be wanted, every fetus would develop normally, and no woman's life would be put at risk by her pregnancy. But, this is not the nature of things. There are many reasons why a woman makes that difficult decision; and, the choice should be hers.

9

No, a fetus does not “have” a soul. That’s putting the cart before the horse. No organism has a soul.
IMO if there is a soul at all it is a universal soul.

Life is a continuum, proceeding according to the laws of nature, and it’s in perfect accord. The life and death of a single organism is of little significance. Of infinite significance however is conscious awareness, which is primary and universal.

A thousand acorns might fall from an oak each year but there’s not room for them all to become trees. If even one becomes a tree that is more than enough.

I like the allegory of the Oak tree. We as humans have decided sort of collectively that nothing should die. Not us, not animals, not plants. But nature cannot support the life of every single thing that sprouts or is born, so many must die. That is one of the fundamental tenets of religion, if you must die (yes, you must!) it promises you continuous life, but on another level. For many, it is the only way they can get through the idea of their own limited existence. For Atheists generally, we accept our limited roles on Earth and do our best to leave fond memories of us behind, or for some, just don’t give a shit and enjoy the life you have! 😄

9

As a male that isn't in the medical proffession I can assure you that abortion is none of my business.

Souls don't exist and I imagine guilt would come from others who want to make an intensely personal choice a public affair - probably because they're serious assholes.

1of5 Level 8 Aug 7, 2019
8

Since I can't get pregnant I can only imagine the situation. In the bible it states that god predetermines where and when a person will be born. If a pregnancy is aborted then the logic follows that is was the god's choice and plan because, as it plainly stated in the bible, the god determines exactly when and where a person is born according to the god's "own" words. Unless the god is a liar or it's power is that of a weakling then all abortions are the plan of the god because it predetermines every event of life.
As an atheist I see life beginning with the first thought that occurs and ending with the last thought that occurs. Aborting a fetus before a "thought" has occurred would be very similar to unplugging a brain dead person on life support. You are not a living being if you don't have thought and are more of a biological vessel instead that is with or without potential depending on whether you are coming towards "being" or leaving it. Abortion before thought occurs terminates the potential for a biological mass to come into being. Men destroy the potential for millions of biological masses to develop into living beings every time they masturbate and they think nothing of it. Women destroy the potential for life every time they have a period. The potential for human life is destroyed by the trillions everyday by men and women in this world living their normal biological life and that is just the way it is. This thought of life beginning with a heartbeat is not accepted in the medical field because they unplug the beating hearts of humans everyday when they are determined to have no thought. You do need a beating heart to have thought but a beating heart without thought is not a human that is the process of being - it's a biological mass with the potential to become a being. Abortions would be rare if birth control was readily available and the need for it well understood and accepted but religion has other ancient ignorant ideas that it wants to dictate.

I like the comparison with pulling the plug. It's a difficult decision to make but in the end it is good to know pain has ended.

7

It’s impossible to answer your question “if you had an abortion, would guilt follow you around for the rest of your life?” We can only guess how we’d feel, unless we have already had one that is, and even then it must entirely depend on the individual and the circumstances which necessitated the abortion.

My stance on abortion is an unemotional one, and never having had a religion it is not influenced by any religious arguments regarding whether life begins at conception or not, or the notional ideas regarding “souls “. I believe it is solely the mother’s right to choose whether she continues with a pregnancy or not. If the pregnancy has not resulted from rape, then her partner should be consulted and his wishes considered, but ultimately it’s her decision, and should be a medical and not a legal matter. I cannot imagine, that were it the case that it was the male of the species who had the womb and got pregnant, and not the female, that we’d still be arguing about abortion in the 21st century. If that were the case, I think that there would be abortion on demand and a much lower birth rate!

7

i don't know why i would feel guilty. if i had an abortion it would be after a thinking process that culminated in the decision that it was the best course of action. i would not feel guilty for disposing of a clump of cells with no functioning nerve endings and nothing more than a bunch of electrical impulses that some people mistook for a heartbeat. i would feel guilty bringing into the world a child i could not support, and i would feel guilty for putting myself through a physical trial of nine months that quite frankly could kill me (in which case i wouldn't feel guilty because i'd be dead).

i do not believe in souls, so of course a fetus doesn't have one. no one has one.

i am an atheistic jew, meaning i am culturally jewish but believe in no gods at all and do not follow the religion except various elements of it that make sense to me or amuse me (i like purim!) jewish law is not against abortion, as it happens, but even if it were, that would not be meaningful to me.

g

I agree with you.

Well said!

7

I think, religion aside, abortion is still a very personal topic. I personally have no objection to (or guilt about) abortion before there’s a fully functioning brain and nervous system; at that point, there is the sensation of pain. So that’s my personally established boundary.

I also believe in exceptions even to this for extraordinary reasons, and those reasons should be decided by the woman and her doctor — and no one else.

7

In a perfect society birth control would be taught in schools as part of health classes and parents would also counsel their children in birth control. Also birth control medicines and other contraceptives would be available to everyone. They aren't because the christian right doesn't want that type of stuff either taught or available. Just say no to both drug use and sex. On the other hand they are long gone after the baby has been born. I have yet to see them out there begging women to have the baby so that one of them can adopt it. And I've also had experiences with some of the people who are totally against abortion until their daughter ends up getting pregnant - the story changes quickly then....well at least for them because well you know there were extenuating circumstances. I believe none of us are in any position to judge another.

7

Let the woman decide after consulting her doctor. I see nothing wrong with an abortion for any reason the pregnant woman choses. For me, it comes down to the idea that the fetus is using the woman's body. The woman has the right to bodily autonomy. The woman gets to decide how her body is to be used.
There is no credible evidence for the existence of a soul, so that is a non-issue.

6

It is a choice for the pregnant woman to make. I would support her whichever way she decides.

6

According to the god nuts, a baby gets a free pass to heaven, right?
So an aborted fetus (if you can call that a 'baby'--I don't) would go directly to an eternity of bliss. No living a life with all its temptations, so no risk of going to hell.
So we'd actually be doing all these "babies" a favor by aborting them.
We should be aborting MORE babies if that's the case, not fewer!
We have a terrible overpopulation problem.
I'm for asking pregnant women to volunteer for the heaven-assuring procedure. This may only apply to Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but that's still a lot of souls being saved from the dangers of actually living a life full of sin and depravity.
Abortion "problem" solved.

6

I'm not from a religious background - I was raised very much aware that there was a such a thing as religion and that I am Jewish (I still consider myself to be Jewish, despite also being an atheist), but also that science has provided far more convincing explanations of how the universe came to be. I do not believe that a foetus has a soul; nor do I believe that any other person or living thing has a soul, because I do not believe that souls exist. However, I understand that women who don't share this opinion might well find undergoing an abortion to be far more morally problematic than I would, and I feel for them.

Jnei Level 8 Aug 7, 2019
5

We weren't going to have children when we married. We were going to have a fun and selfish life without contributing to overpopulation. However, inadvertently and shockingly I found myself pregnant. Seeing the ultrasound at 12 wks I was blown away. I thought then and there I would never have an abortion. I guess I had a 'spiritual' experience.....or at least, I was greatly moved.

I would never ever impose my beliefs on others and I stand for the rights of other women to choose. In fact I look around and wish half the population had been aborted. But not mine! never mine! lol. We went on to have three more babies.

5

A fetus is a PARASITE (Google the definition of "parasite" ) in every sense of the word. Does anyone get all teary-eyed over tapeworms/roundworms/hookworms? None of my business what anyone chooses to do with their insides........

My youngest is 20 and still a bloody parasite! He lives at home, contributes nothing, eats my food, uses my utilities and takes up a heap of space. He is at least amusing which is why I keep him. The day he no longer amuses me, I'll get the fly swatter out and flick him out.

5

In my catholic days I would have felt guilt and would most likely not have one. As an agnostic, I would not feel guilt at all. I am choosing to remain childfree and were an accident to happen the thing is getting aborted. Getting pregnant would take for me to make that decision. The soul is a religious concept. There is no scientific evidence for a soul. We do not even have a proper definition or conceptualization of a soul to be able to study it. I believe personhood does not begin until birth, however, barring health complications, I do not think 3rd trimester abortions should be common. In the 3rd trimester the fetus' brain and nerves are developed so much that the fetus can feel pain. Prior to that, it would not feel a thing. 🙂

4

This topic has been hashed over so many times, and still women for choice have to fight for that right. I personally have used this method, and I have also worked at Planned Parenthood. My background is a retired Labor and Delivery RN. So yes I have seen many sides of this issue. I have also marched for a woman's right to decide for herself. I have been spit at and called a murder. When at PP we were trapped in our clinic by demonstrators singing (get this) civil rights songs and holding pics of aborted fetuses. I eventually quit because of those hassles. My slogan has always been "My Body, My Choice". And I marched with a wire coat hanger on my head,both in the 70's and this year! Let's not go back to the time when women died trying to end a pregnancy they didn't want or couldn't care for. We have no right to judge because we are not walking in her shoes. Keep abortion safe and legal!!!!!

4

I’m having a hard time thinking of any instance where an unwanted pregnancy isn’t a man fault.

I think abortion should be legal, safe and rare.

I think there’s plenty of room for both sides of the debate to join together and focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies, rather than abortions.

@vjohnson51
Still, with out him - there wouldn’t have been a pregnancy.
It was a crappy thing to do to him though.

@vjohnson51 Obviously I don't have any proof, but I found it very coincidental that my brother's wife became pregnant every time they were considering divorce.

@kiramea He could have used a condom.

4

The discussion with a partner was never necessary for me.... I believe that the morning after pill and abortion on demand should be freely available to all women.
As to ;souls' as in ability to have deep emotional feelngs for another life - only applies to a cognitive brain that recognises emotional contact and again no direct experience of how long for this to develop n kids

@K9Kohle789 I think it is partly the timing factor ... maybe the millions of sperm vs one egg - and why does a man need to be responsible?

4

Now that I'm older, I sometimes resent the fact that my grandmother had so many children. My mother was the sixth of 11 children, and had to quit school in 8th grade to take care of the youngest five (their father was an alcoholic and died at that time).

The poverty and ignorance that reverberated from that is still affecting dozens of people, including me.

There are other things I have learned--some within the last couple of years--that are just heartbreaking, and stem directly from my grandma's religious beliefs that she had to keep having children (even though she had no real means to take care of them, although she always managed somehow).

One incident I don't mind sharing I learned about decades ago. One of mom's younger brothers (very little at the time) had an ear infection, and the side of his head started swelling up. Mom said she told grandma he had to go to the doctor, and she said no because they had no money. Mom was a working teenager then, so said she would pay for it. Grandma still said no. Mom took him anyway.

When I knew grandma, she never had a dog or a cat, and was very standoffish with any animal I ever saw around her. I learned later she never wanted her kids to have any animals because they had no way to feed themselves, much less the animals, and so had kind of turned off any emotion toward animals.

My like is for Christopher Hitchens and others who aren't afraid to speak out.

4

The bible doesn't consider a fetus a human, life beginning at conception, or consider heartbeats relevant to anything (the Midianites all had heartbeats when god ordered them all slaughtered).

Many fun facts you may not know regarding the bible and abortion:
[ffrf.org]

And if you don't have time, here is a small sampling of the bible's view of the sanctity of the lives of babies.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones.
Deuteronomy 2:34 utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.
Deuteronomy 28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
I Samuel 15:3 slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
2 Kings 8:12 dash their children, and rip up their women with child.
2 Kings 15:16 all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Isaiah 13:18 They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.
Lamentations 2:20 Shall the women eat their fruit, and children.
Ezekiel 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children.
Hosea 9:14 give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Hosea 13:16 their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

@GodlessMimi There is a line between admirable self-sacrifice to save the group...and deciding everyone in the group (or everyone in another group) must die. Generally it seems Christianity often blurs that line.

Important to realise that we are not talking here about any directives from any god. This is Bronze Age desert/Mediterranean culture.

Pretty much standard practice to obliterate an enemy that is in the way of your pet project!

Pretty fucking violent and murderous. This stuff is bad as many horror movies in recent decades.

4

In an ideal world men and women would make wise choices and avoid unwanted pregnancies. No one wants an abortion if they can avoid it. It costs money and hurts, not to mention puts women at risk for complications like any medical procedure. When women are seeking abortions, it's because it's their very last resort against having an unwanted child. Even asking a woman to care for the child for the nine month pregnancy is asking her to allow her body to be permanently altered for the rest of her life, usually in negative ways. If women are desperate enough to avoid that, that they would get abortions, we need to be honoring those feelings.

At the same time, I don't dismiss the humanity of the fetus. I believe discussing the humanity is a ploy to help people overcome what they would otherwise feel mortified over: killing a helpless baby. I believe it's justified because no one else can care for the fetus except for one specific woman and at a tremendous cost to her and so, though it is an unhappy situation for all, particularly the fetus, it still should be allowable. I support efforts to make the procedure more comfortable for the fetus which is something that doesn't happen when people argue that they aren't human.

I also think there needs to be some legal protections to encourage men not to produce unwanted pregnancies. There are many cases where men pressure women into sex or where they slip the condom off during sex so they can have a more enjoyable experience. But if pregnancy occurs, is the woman who has to take responsibility. A lot would change if the law placed more responsibility on men, outside of small child support payments.

More comfortable for the fetus? What do you mean? 😕 Are you aware a fetus cannot feel pain until the end of the 2nd trimester or beginning of the 3rd trimester? And that the vast majority of abortions occur within the first trimesters of pregnancy?

@demifeministgal There is strong evidence that fetuses feel pain quite a bit earlier than that and even that they might feel pain more intensely than fully developed humans do due to a lack of pain inhibitors until later in their development. This is supported not only by the response fetuses demonstrate within the womb as seen on ultrasound but also by hormone levels and higher doses of anesthetic needed for in utero surgeries. The idea that fetus' can't feel pain is a convenient one for abortion doctors but isn't supported enough by evidence to not take precautions. If we are going to err in this area, for the sake of our humanity, it is best to err in being overly cautious.

@UpsideDownAgain I do not know what outdated sources you gather your mis-information from, but allow me to provide you with up-to-date factual science:
""What we can say about the fetal nervous system is that based on the best science we have" on the neurons that carry pain signals is that the "system isn't developed until the third trimester of pregnancy," Davis told Live Science....

researchers highlighted several key points in fetal development that are required in order for a fetus to perceive pain. One is that the receptors in the skin that sense an injury must be developed. Research has shown that this happens between 7.5 and 15 weeks of pregnancy, depending on the location of the receptors on the body, according to the review. For example, receptors in the skin around the mouth develop at around 7.5 weeks, whereas receptors in the skin on the abdomen develop at around 15 weeks, according to the review.

Second, the neurons in the spinal cord that transmit that signal up to the brain must be developed. Researchers who looked at fetal tissues reported that this happens at around 19 weeks, the review said.

Third, the neurons that extend from the spinal cord into the brain need to reach all the way to the area of the brain where pain is perceived. This does not occur until between 23 and 24 weeks, according to the review.

Moreover, the nerves' existence isn't enough to produce the experience of pain, the authors wrote in their review. Rather, "These anatomical structures must also be functional," the authors wrote. It's not until around 30 weeks that there is evidence of brain activity that suggests the fetus is "awake."

Davis noted that while these time frames aren't exact — some fetuses may develop a little earlier, and some fetuses may develop a little later — "there isn't any science to suggest that those pathways [for pain] are complete around the 20th week" of pregnancy. "

[livescience.com]

@demifeministgal The evidence that fetuses feel pain before 23 weeks is practically air tight. It comes from premature babies born at 21 and 22 weeks who demonstrate every indication of pain the same as adults, except as I said, that there is some indication that they might feel pain more intensely. So any study stating that fetuses don't feel pain previous to 23 weeks is erroneous.

Around 40 years ago, doctors would tell parents that infants didn't feel pain; the screaming and struggling was just an instinctive reaction to being held down. They would do painful procedures on babies with no pain relief. They had all the evidence they needed to know that the babies were feeling pain but ignored it because it was beneficial to them.

The evidence that unborn fetuses feel pain is also strong. It's colored, though, by the question of abortion. Those arguing that they feel pain are virtually always arguing against abortion while those who argue that they don't, are arguing for abortion. Since we can't conclusively say that they aren't feeling pain, why wouldn't we offer fetuses some possible relief? The answer is in the fact that the more human a fetus seems, the less likely women are to have abortions and that means a financial hit for abortion doctors.

Unfortunately, if we have to sacrifice truth for our agenda, then we can never come to any real solutions to the problems we face. Instead of debating whether babies feel pain or not, we could be discussing ways to better avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place, things like male birth control pills, males being held more responsible for their sexual choices, and women having better access to birth control options that will work for them. When you benefit monetarily from abortions, you aren't motivated to have those discussions.

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I'm not sure "when life begins". As a man I couldn't say if I would ever have one or not. I helped pay for a friend's abortion in highschool because a football player took advantage of her when she was passed out (I had just been given some money from my bio dad who left before I was born - we were always desperately poor back then). I support abortion rights just because I'm not sure what I would do and I don't feel it's my place to make moral judgements for others. I also think too often questions like "when life begins" don't have any objective meaning. I'm sure "life" in this usage is not the scientific definition (i.e. life processes - nutrition, respiration, reproduction, movement, etc) or at least not to most. Perhaps if we were more careful with our language and less emotional then abortion doctors would not be killed. But it's human nature to respond to emotionally charged rhetoric and also to assume that things with correct syntax that aren't obvious nonsense must have some meaning (it's also kind of how language evolves). As for your other questions, I've never seen a "soul". If you mean something like "consciousness" we'd need to define that as well. If you mean "self awareness" I would lean towards "no" but I don't see how that could be answered definitively.
In the end I guess I'm pro choice just because it is such a complicated issue to me.
And as for feeling guilty, if it were possible for me and I did I would probably feel guilty but let myself off the hook after a while. And I have no idea what it would take. I certainly would never presume it meant someone who had one was any better or worse a human being than anyone else.

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