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UPDATE on Religion's professor saying atheism is a religion.

I've been asked so many times for clarification on what my religions professor said. Here's notes from his lectures he sends out. Also, yes, he is a Lutheran minister....and he has essentially ditched our textbook (which I liked) and everything is off of his lectures/notes.

In addition, in our papers we're only allowed to use sources that he has given us in advance so that doesn't allow for any opposing research to be included in our papers. It's not a huge deal, but it's just a tiny bit disappointing.

PiperMckenna 6 Aug 21
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54 comments

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1

Atheism is a belief that God does not exist and it is without traditions and chores. The argument can be made but it is controversial.

I think he is challenging you to debate, not accept. You are a student. Your role is to read, research, ponder and debate to understand various sides of the argument. Your role is not throw professor's material on social media. Your class work does not belong here. Focus on studies.

I disagree. Atheism is the lack of belief that a god exists. It is subtle, but there is a difference.

@Joanne
Depends of the view. We either believe in yes or no or may be. The may be is Agnosticism. We cannot believe in nothing or not believe in anything. Our mind makes a decision because we believe something is true or not true.

@St-Sinner. I suppose to some agnosticism is a maybe. In my case it is simply an acknowledgement that I cannot know--even though nothing in me thinks there is a god--which is why I am an agnostic atheist. And, it isn't about believing that something is not true, it is not believing a claim is true if it is not backed up with evidence. And, if it is backed up with evidence belief is not necessary. It is then about either accepting the evidence, or not.

@Joanne
Making a decision that I do not think ... is a belief - no matter what you call it.

@St-Sinner Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree; but the dictionary definition of atheism is : "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

@St-Sinner That assumes that the rejection of the idea starts with "I do not think..." as opposed to something like, "That's ridiculous." "That's ridiculous" simply refutes the evidence or statement made without any reference to believing anything one way or another. It is based on the fallacy of the evidence provided to support the "belief".

No atheism is the understanding that no god can exist and all those being worshipped by people are fictional characters made up for political control which can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence...

@Lizard_of_Ahaz
Just a different way of saying it. It means the same thing.

@St-Sinner Not believing something is not a belief, by definition.

@St-Sinner Not even close...

3

It's quite easy to see that your teacher is biased. Sadly not only that but he also presents some very misleading information. For instance the Torcaso v Watkins case. The Supreme court did not "classify Secular Humanism as a religion. Maryland at that time required "a declaration of belief in the existence of God" in order for a person to hold "any office of profit or trust in this State". Roy Tocaso was an atheist an refused to do so. The Supreme Court ruled that the requirement violated the First and Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution. It was about freedom from a religious requirement.
This whole "classifying" thing comes from one footnote of one of the judges. Very far from a court ruling.
The 2005 case about the inmate was about him starting an atheist group. Here the question becomes: can you practice atheism as a religion? And the answer is yes, of course. You introduce rituals, a creed, rules etc. to form a religious group based on atheism. But that doesn't make atheism a religion. Theism is not a religion. Christianity is. Mysticism is not a religion. Hinduism is. You see the difference? For a belief to become a religion there needs to be more than just that. Otherwise me believing in Santa Clause is also a religion.

Dietl Level 7 Aug 21, 2019

you might want to see how the Supreme Court defines religion as I have posted above

@lerlo I see no definition in your post. Only that atheism should be treated like a religion for legal purposes.

@Dietl wouldn't want you to have to read the whole opinion yourself, but it's there

@lerlo So, what is it now? An opinion or an official definition by the Supreme Court? And why can't you just quote the definition for me here? It's not in your post as you suggested in your first reply to me.

@Dietl "Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of "ultimate concern" that for her occupy a "place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons," those beliefs represent her religion. Fleischfresser v. Dirs. of Sch. Dist. 200, 15 F.3d 680, 688 n. 5 (7th Cir.1994)..."We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion."

See it's really easy, you take the citation of the case, search it and read the case

@lerlo Okay, there is the quote you wanted me to check out. What is it you are trying to argue exactly?

1

Atheism is a belief.Agnosticism is a rejection of belief. Thus, given a common definition of "religion," atheism is a religion of sorts, and agnosticism is not.

*Atheists believe there is no god, i.e., it is a belief.

Sorry but you have just proven you are even less qualified to teach than that professor is...

@Bobby9 Atheism is the BELIEF there is no god. But there's no more any proof that there IS versus that there isn't. It is a belief. However, the agnostic takes the position there isn't any proof one way or another.

@mischl No atheism is lack of belief in any god through complete lack of evidence for there being one with substantial evidence that it is all made up bullshit...

1

"In addition, in our papers we're only allowed to use sources that he has given us in advance so that doesn't allow for any opposing research to be included in our papers. It's not a huge deal, but it's just a tiny bit disappointing."

OMFG! For real??

If he's so fearful of a contradictory opinion that he prohibits them in your research then please tell your professor that Sgt. Spanky says he's a pussy because that's really pathetic of him.

I'm really hoping the class gets better....or I may have to give him your message. haha

@PiperMckenna Any educator worth a damn will be open to the critical examination of any topic under discussion from all sides. If this guy just wants to create an echo chamber of his own views then what value is there in taking his class? Is it a pre-req or something?

I agree with you, but the only thing I can think of is that teachers will only accept cites from .org or .gov websites I think, and official journals etc. It might be deeper than that with this guy though. He sounds like a very biased piss poor teacher.

1

Drop the class
He’s an idiot
He’s inter mingling religion and group/society
I understand the point he’s making but he’s just plain wrong

He doesn’t get to make shit up because he’s a professor. I’d challenge him every step of the way. You don’t have to accept his ideologies.
Take philosophy classes instead.

I'd like to drop this class but I've already dropped one this semester due to health. I feel stuck. I'm just hoping that it doesn't affect my grade in the class. I'm trying to be as quiet as possible but I don't know how to write my papers without addressing the problems I see. I hate this whole situation.

@PiperMckenna
You have some options

  1. Write your papers how you see fit.
    He’s not a dictator.
    Just make sure you justify your choices along the way through research and facts. Cite the crap out of everything. Explain why you did so.

Grades are not the end all in college.

  1. When you choose a topic make sure it doesn’t involve his concepts of atheism. So basically only write on topics that won’t involve you contradicting what you believe in.

  2. Use his own material he’s providing to prove he’s wrong.

Ultimately if he’s a professor of any merit he will accept you challenging him as long as you do so with valid arguments and facts to base it in.
If he’s a douche which most of us here suspect then you will have to go to his peers for support.

This is difficult but hella fun!

He does have the option to lower your grade by not following his format but he can’t give you a poor grade if you challenge him or disagree with him.

@PiperMckenna Drop the class and try not to pay for it. If you are paying not to pursue your education, why?

4

Wow. That actually IS a big deal.
He's actively advocating against critical thinking and seeking out multiple
sources.
He's a terrible instructor.

I'm really fretting over this class. I don't know if I should just agree and write whatever he wants me to...I just don't know. There is another atheist in my class, I'm going to see what she does and maybe talk to her some. I just really can't drop

@PiperMckenna You should do whatever you think you need to do.
Good luck.

@PiperMckenna

My advice is don't do that. I had to write a term paper in a sociology class. My view conflicted with the professor's. The paper merited an A. Got a B. No red corrections. Everyone else had red marks. Mine didn't. The only red on mine was a B.

There are 2 choices I see. Fight him now, or stick it up his ass at another time.

I recommend you waiting. Then hit him in the nuts. Maybe contact some larger groups about this. Film the class. Collect ammo.

4

suck it up, gather evidence, and when you are done with the class file a complaint.

You can’t really file a complaint. Well you can but it rarely serves any purpose.
Best way to get him is through his peers in his department.
See my comment below

@darthfaja I wouldnt take the risk. he could absolutely tank her. that's why i would do it after the fact.

@JasonTomerlin2
He can’t tank her without just reason to do so. If her papers are sound and well written the head of the department should back her up

I like these kinds of fights. 😊

3

He quotes the case law out of context. The court did not hold that "atheism" was a religion, but simply that "atheism" is protected under the law prohibiting discrimination based on religion, because it is a REJECTION of a religion, and it also must be protected.

"Title VII does forbid an employer, unless it is a religious organization, ... which Great Lakes is not, to discriminate against an employee on the basis of the employee's religion. 42 U.S.C. § 2000e–2(a)(1). And for these purposes, as assumed by the parties, as strongly intimated in EEOC v. Townley Engineering & Mfg. Co., 859 F.2d 610, 613–14 n. 5 (9th Cir.1988), and Young v. Southwestern Savings & Loan Ass'n, 509 F.2d 140, 142 (5th Cir.1975), and as supported by analogy to cases under the free-exercise clause of the First Amendment, County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, 492 U.S. 573, 589–90, 109 S.Ct. 3086, 106 L.Ed.2d 472 (1989); Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 52–53, 105 S.Ct. 2479, 86 L.Ed.2d 29 (1985); Books v. City of Elkhart, 235 F.3d 292, 307 (7th Cir.2000) Warner v. Orange County Dep't of Probation, 173 F.3d 120, 120–22 (2d Cir.1999)—cases which hold that religious freedom includes the freedom to reject religion—“religion” includes antipathy to religion. And so an atheist (which Reed may or may not be) cannot be fired because his employer dislikes atheists. If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.

Reed v. Great Lakes Companies, Inc., 330 F.3d 931, 933–34 (7th Cir. 2003).

The law protects people from persecutions based on religion. If the religious discriminates atheists because of their LACK of religion, it is still a persecution based on religion. It is this simple and logical analysis that your prof is misusing to argue that atheism is a religion.

If all organized belief system is a religion, then every set of ideas is a religion, and if everything is a religion, then nothing is a religion.

Humanism and Atheism are not one and the same thing.

actually the court DID hold that atheism is a religion as I quoted above

@lerlo The exact quote is "If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, THEN atheism is indeed a form of religion." But that is not what religion actually means. It is a rhetorical device the court used to make a point. The court didn't HOLD that atheism is a religion. It can be called a dictum at best.

@AtheistReader perhaps you didn't read the same case I did but it says atheism is equivalent to religion. That's not dicta, because that's what the case is about and in order for the court to rule as a did, it had to make that holding

0

The first rule of debate is to define your terms, since he is the professor, he gets to define the rules for debate in his classroom. While the primary reason for taking a class should be to learn something, as a college student who has paid money to attend the class, you have other good reasons to take the class, to not waste your money, to meet a graduation requirement, to not mess up your gpa; and to not have to take the class again. Roll with the punches and don't complain until the class is over and the grades recorded.

@OwlInASack Practical advice is what I was offering.

1

Being treated as a religion, and being a religion are not the same thing. Especially when the phrases about treatment only refer to legal definitions, you can not jump for legal definitions to all other definitions, such as philosophical.

He 100% threw out the 5-7 definitions of religion in the textbook and put together a different definition that I had to write about. And he required us to right about the ways that make atheism fit into the religion definition. I couldn't just be quiet. I did the assignment and then at the end said I don't actually believe anything I just said.... I don't know how that will go over. We'll see when I receive my grade.

4

Does this mean we can found our own tax sheltered atheist “church “? We can all meet to play cards or listen to cool music in our tax free clubhouse..er, church?

Funny how the god thing always comes back to money, isn't it?

@HonkyBMcfunky money or power

0

Define religion.
And btw why on earth would anyone voluntarily attend such a worthless class?

It was the only class that met my needs for "culture inclusion" or something. That's one of the reasons I'm not dropping. I'm not at a Christian college, I didn't know it'd be so biased.

1

Does it matter whether atheism is considered to be a religion or not? If your Professor is saying that atheists can be as close minded in their opinions as others, he is not wrong.

No, what theists argue is that atheists believe "there is no god" on faith, so everyone has faith, so everyone accepts things without evidence/empiricism, so faith isn't irrational because everyone does it (they imply everyone HAS to do it), so you might as well bet that Jesus died and rose for your sins, prayer works, and we should teach the bible as religion in schools.

That's why cutting them off at the pass to correct them that atheism is just not accepting the claim that gods exist until evidence is presented...is so very important.

Not accepting the claim that gods exist is not a religious stance, but a rational stance based on skepticism--exactly the same as saying you don't believe Bigfoot exists until such time as someone presents you with convincing evidence that he does.

"Do not do with god what you wouldn't do with Bigfoot" -- Tracie Harris

(The fact that atheism is a religious stance in terms of the Supreme Court's interpretation of the first amendment has to do with individual rights in a democracy, not whether there is actually anything that can remotely be called "religious" within the stance of lacking a belief in deities.)

2

Atheists lack belief in a deity. Therefore it's not a religion. For legal reasons it's referred to as a religion. That does not make it one.

It is not lacking of belief. It is lacking of evidence to believe.

3

I am reminded of Bill Mahar's response to a similar claim. He said that atheism is as much a religion as abstinence is a sex position.

...and not collecting stamps is a hobby.

7

When my atheist sons joined the military and were given dog tags, they said, Religion: None.

So did I.

2

I think some religious people are so stupid that they claim you can make a "god" out of your car or your wife. I have even heard sermons on it. The common mistake is that you must be worshiping something. My question is why do you have to worship anything? Why does everybody have to "serve" somebody? (Sorry, Dylan.) 🙂

It’s just like any time Jordan Peterson talks about religion. He says that atheists don’t exist merely because he can’t imagine not believing in something and dances around it when pressed on the issue.
Also, isn’t it ironic that religious nuts try to straw-man science by making it a religion?

1

hes a fucking one dimentional dictater not a teacher. they should teach you how to learn and not what to learn.

1

Sorry, it seems to be a big deal to me. A higher education institution is to develop and encourage critical thinking. I keep telling my students that two questions they should be constantly asking when someone makes claims are: 1) What's your evidence; and 2) How strong is your evidence? What you are describing sounds like killing critical thinking in the bud ), which is particularly inappropriate given that it's done by a professor. We do live in strange times, don't we )

Sonya Level 4 Aug 21, 2019
5

He is off his intellectual rocker and uses the most fallacious of reasoning for try to call atheism a religion. There is no set of theological beliefs I adhere to. I do not worship anyone or anything. I am not a member of any congregation.

2

Need the barf emoji back please.

1

How could any Theist, minister/pastor/priest/iman/rabbi, teach anything other than what they believe?

1

Under his definition, yes, atheism = religion. However, the case mentioned in the indented text (James J. KAUFMAN, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. Gary R. McCAUGHTRY, et al., Defendants-Appellees) states, “If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion.” If this is so, why is Pastafarianism not recognized as a religion in the US? This would be something I would ask the professor to clarify their position on. Pastafarians claim they are a legit religion, and some countries (e.g. New Zealand) agree.
As a professor myself, I find it VERY odd that you are not allowed to use other sources besides the ones he has given you. Do you have this in writing or something? If so, this is grounds for a legitimate complaint as it is a huge deal. That being said, I would seek to not rock the boat. In the grander scheme of things, is taking a stance to rebut the professor worth not passing this class? Is that the proverbial "hill you wish to die upon" or would it be better to do what you need to do to get it over with while in the class. I would argue the second one.

0

I've heard that before of atheism being a religion. People equate having no faith with having faith based on having faith that monotheism is false. A bit like seeing an empty lot in a row of houses and insisting that the empty lot is still a kind of house.

1

Please inform your professor that atheism is NOT a religion because it lacks the defining characteristic called "faith" (Absolute belief in divinity without evidence it exists...) and that he should therefore not be teaching at any level in any subject because he lacks the ability to determine reality from his own twisted fantasies...

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