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Long ago I was with a group at a get-together after a funeral. An uncle of mine had been buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Most of the people there, predictably, were family, but I didn't know them all. Some were from the northwest part of the country, in an area where there were quite a few Mormons, and were involved in [non-Mormon] church leadership. These believers asserted that the Mormons didn't really believe all that Mormon stuff -- that somehow they knew it wasn't really true. I didn't comment, but privately I disagreed: I thought (and still think) that by and large, believers do in fact believe. Of course people are complicated, and I don't doubt that there are some who have various other reasons for their involvement in religion. But generally speaking, I see no reason to doubt that believers believe, whether they are Mormons or Methodists or Missionary Baptists. (Hmm, what other "M" religions are there?)

Once I questioned the assertion that religious people were delusional. The word seemed unduly insulting. Over the years, though, I've realized that there's more to this than I had thought. A delusion involves believing something to be true when it is false. If one is laboring under a delusion, one is unaware that the belief is false. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a true delusion.

Interestingly, a deeper psychological definition of "delusion" is "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." I would not apply this to all believers, but in some cases it certainly fits...

Omnedon 7 Jan 29
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16 comments

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1

"a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact."

That's pretty typical of many beliefs, religious or not. Antivaxers, flat earth, chemtrails, birthers... All delusional.

And by definition it explains why you're wasting your time confronting them with facts. You could literally take a flat earther into space, fly them around the globe and they would convince themselves it was all a trick by NASA to fool them.

The only sure fire way I've seen of dealing with delusions is the Socratic method to spend the seeds of questioning in them. Then let them stew on their doubts in their own time and hopefully eventually dig their own way out of it.

0

I really don't know why people choose religion. It's probably for a multitude of reasons. Some folks probably believe but most just accept and go along without questioning or thinking deeply. They belong for the social and family acceptance.

1

It's odd... they will believe the silliness of their own religion (the creation myth, the Noah myth, transubstantiation, etc) but when they see silliness in another religion (holy underwear, getting one's own planet etc) they don't think the people actually believe it because, well, it's just too silly.

And, the sad truth is that religions cause people to believe not only silly things--but harmful things.

0

For all we know, maybe even the Pope doesn't believe in the Jesus Story. Maybe he knows it is a fable. But do you think for one second that he would give up the powerful job that he has? I doubt it....I think he would keep pretending to believe just so he could keep the prestige, power, and influence of being Pope of a billion people.

1

I prefer the term "cognitive failure" rather than delusional.

I need to justify the above remark.

Such people consistently use logical fallacies to justify their positions. Moreover, they are never able to justify their assumptions.

The words "facts, truths and beliefs" are worthy of some consideration along with the idea of "a model of reality". Facts, to quote Eugenie Scott, are a dime a dozen - they are things that you can observe and measure directly. Truths are personal - one might even go so far as to say that everybody's truth is different, one has only to compare an atheist's truths with a theist's truths. For my money, a belief is a position claimed without any supporting evidence. Different people have different models of reality, which is why some people can function in this life better than other people: people who pray for a cure for their cancer are far more likely to die early rather than those who seek a medical cure.

0

Believers do not know that what they believe is a delusion. Not knowing it to be false, this is why they believe. Years ago we would discuss in detail how Moses may have parted the Red Sea and what really happened that day. Many other things as well. How angels fly and do all of them have wings? Can they eat food as we do. (The bible said so.) The bottom line is that you stop believing the nonsense when you finally realize that it is all made up.

0

Muslims.

2

It's impossible to tell what other people are truly thinking. I don't think they are delusional per se, but I believe many are mislead and gullible. If I told you I was an airline pilot, it wouldn't mean that you're delusional if you believe me. However if I sincerely believed it, I would be the delusional party.

I also believe that there are a lot of people who pretend to believe at least some of the doctrine of their religions. There are a large number of people who fear losing the social connections they've established through it. Don't forget religion has a brilliant counter to those who question belief: "Doubt is the devil testing your faith."

JimG Level 8 Jan 29, 2020
7

I find a hell of a lot of middle aged and old men are incredibly delusional, they imagine that they still are young, beautiful and don't have an ugly hanging belly no matter how many mirrors they have in their houses.

I resemble that remark!

that is so true.....LOL

Well, Jolanta, you just busted my bubble. I keep calling everybody younger than me "old men."

I read that men's mental image of themselves stops at 13 years old. No matter how old and fat they get after that, they continue to see themselves as that age, and hit on women with confidence that they look great and are fit.

You could probably make a fortune selling them magic underwear to make those bellies look smaller. Oh wait... Spanxs for men!

@prometheus You are giving me ideas, however they probably would not buy them as they cannot see themselves as needing them. Such delusion.

3

What people believe isn't nearly as relevant to me as what they do in the name of what they claim to believe. I assume every televangelist is aware they he/she is a charlatan who is getting rich selling snake oil. It would defy logic that they could believe in a god who judges their actions while they are so blatantly preying on the gullible.

Deb57 Level 8 Jan 29, 2020
0

I think, as Woody Allen said, that everyone knows the same truth. Even believers. If they really believed at their core that their deceased loved one had gone up to heaven, and that they would see him/her again in a few years, they wouldn't sob inconsolably at funerals like everyone else does.

Imagine we do get to meet our loved ones again. What state would they be in? My wife died at age of 54. I was just 53, now I'm 57. If I live to my expected age for my class and location etc, I could have another three decades.
So, I'm not sure if June would still fancy me once I'm 87 and she's still only 54!
Add to this, what about peole who remarry or as a Morman said to my dad 'you'll meet your wife in heaven' (he too was a widower), he replied. 'Oh, oh dear, only we didn't really like each other in the end'!
My wife has a couple of dead ex boyfriends, what if she is shagging them in the afterlife?
All too silly when you break it down.

@Sofabeast I think many xtions imagine a perfect new form - beautiful and instantly recognizable to all. Most don't expect sex, or talk about it, except the Mormons who get a planet to populate, or some such b.s.

1

Fortunately, this type of decision was permanently abdicated by Tony Bliar (a closet catholic) so it is no longer the PM's responsibility. However, our fictional PM here is educated on just how much belief matters in the church of England leadership.

2

I often wonder about this. I have religious friends who are intelligent, educated people and I think, "can they really believe this nonsense"
I have heard of deeply religious people who have a "crisis of faith" which to me means they have had a brief flash of reason.

@Omnedon Very true. I think the cults in particular have a peculiar hold over their members. Another facet of human behaviour puzzles me. Victims of domestic abuse who hang around for months or even years to be constantly abused. I can understand that women in particular may be financially dependant on the other partner but surely a man could walk away.
I read a fascinating biography recently called "The Nipper" by a guy who was physically abused by his drunken father until the kid was strong enough to stand up to him. The mother eventually had enough and left then the father had a girlfriend who had her own flat nearby and still turned up regualrly to be beaten by the drunk. As they say in the north of England." There's nowt as queer as folk "

0

Years ago I discovered a group known as "Cultural Jews." They follow the traditions sans the religious parts. [en.wikipedia.org] It might also be that other 'religious' tribes may have break-away groups that only care for the community part of their religious group.

1

In psychology religion does not fit into the diagnosis of delusion. It is sad as many people that need treatment are ignored.

But, does psychology forego including religion within its diagnosis of delusion as a issue validated by science or as an issue to be omitted for the sake of political correctness (administrating a service which would be rejected by a large percent of society) ?? Seriously, the adherence to political correctness is too often its own form of delusion.

Shame on those who 'go along to get along,' but then live a lie for their whole life. So much greater shame on those who lie and support misleading others to line their own pockets. That represents the bulk of religion - - control in exchange for cash. Loyalty to evil while claiming a moral highground? Truth matters. Blocking truth is harmful. Blocking truth with selfish intent is degenerate and cruelly immoral.

@racocn8 It is not based on science at all. In fact it flies in the faces of science. It is a social taboo, that is all.

5

I think the people involved in religion that most likely don't actually believe are the heads of the big churches, the televangelists, etc. They see it as a cash cow and have exploited the believers to enrich themselves. Spouting their "prosperity gospel" spiel to the gullible flock, they don't epitomize a true sense of belief, imo.

See my above comment

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