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An Evangelical Christian (my classmate's friend) commented on a FB post I made about me being in favor of pro-choice, especially w/ rape & incest cases. He used slavery to somehow correlate it with abortion. Huh? See photo. Any thoughts would be much appreicated 🙂 The last sentence he wrote is debatable.

I'm not entirely thrilled about abortion either. It's very sad and unfortunate sometimes but no woman should be forced to have a child. Not every women out there gets pregnant by her own doing/will. And what kind of life is that child going to have if the mother isn't ready either mentally, financially, emotionally?

"But there's always adoption and foster care!" Well yeah, but it's not always that easy nor all sunshine and rainbows either. The foster care system is somewhat broken and flawed. Many social workers are burned out and many cases of abuse in foster care goes unnoticed. Do people really think that every single child who is placed into the foster care system will get adopted? Some children, especially the troubled kids, never even get adopted.

I personally know this one girl who went through 7 foster care homes. She had RAD and was on 5 different meds at a young age. She was eventually adopted by an older woman who was abusive and was not good at partenting. She later ended up committing suicide at age 13.

VeronicaAnn 7 May 3
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9

What a convoluted argument of a xstian with an agenda. There is no connection between the murder of a person and the medical removal of a clump of cells that may have the potential to grow into a person, they are not the same thing at all. The slavery analogy could just as easily be used to describe the enslavement of women by men and their desire to legislate and control a woman's rights and freedoms to have control over her own body. Slavery advocates weren't seeking to control the hearts and minds of their slaves, just their bodies, in seeking to have control over a woman's body they continue the xstian belief that women are chattels to men.
All the white men who voted against a woman's right to abort the results of a rape or incest have something in common, they all have the potential to rape and commit incest, maybe they should use their convoluted logic to restrict male erections except with a special consent from the state that will allow male erections for the sole purpose of impregnating their lawful spouse. Just take a legally mandated pill each day to cause chemical castration and there would be no need for abortions, all pregnancies would be wanted pregnancies and only between lawfully married spouses, just the way it is supposed to be in their stupid book. Run that one up the flag pole and see how they feel about this solution to the abortion issue.

7

As I thought it has come from a male. Not male should be allowed to comment on how a woman treats her body. Imagine the screams if women got to decide whether or not a male must have a vasectomy?

Yep, I had mine in 1984, and Trust me, it IS no fun because you walk around, IF you can walk, afterwards like a duck with a baseball bat stuck up your arse, the slightest bump in the road brings agony and mine 'site' go infected, swollen up like a bloody football and, besides getting antibiotics, the only other 'treatment' was to sit in hot, saline bath 4 times per day for 2 weeks.
Though having been a Mid-wife and helping bring 163 babies into the world, seeing what women go through during Natural Birth and afterwards, especially if they need an epeasitomyin particular, I'd say my experience was a whole less to bear than theirs.

@Triphid My vasectomy was in the mid-90's My doctor was named (really) Dr. Wonderly. I had no after effects. In the ChildFree by Choice movement one hears of all kinds of reasons to not have kids. But, unfortunately the cultural propaganda always prevails. Hearing your story is another view from a different perspective that more need to hear. Thank You.

@JackPedigo No probs.
Even after being a Mid-wife it still amazes me how it is possible to get something the size of footballor bigger out through something the diameter of an average garden hose.
One of the more' memorable' deliveries I helped with was a woman ( of course) who sttod at about 5' 4", weighed in at approx. 90 pounds dripping wet and we were setting up ready for the next stage of the birth process, she sneezed, farted and this 13 pound, 11 ounce 'hulk' of a baby boy just shot out and landed on the bed.
About 10-12 minutes later Mum was sitting up, holding the baby and asking to be allowed to have a shower, then a cup of coffee and 2 Hamburgers with the lot.

7

This argument regarding a mother’s right to chose boils down at basic level to whether a bunch of cells has more rights than a fully adult sentient woman, and whether she should be forced to incubate a foetus against her will. I believe it’s the birthright of every child to be wanted by his mother and it isn’t the state’s business to force women to continue with a pregnancy in the mistaken belief that carrying a child to term in order to satisfy some religious or societal diktat is right for either mother or baby. Whether to abort or not should be a purely medical choice between a woman and her doctor, based on personal circumstance and medical history. The foster/abortion argument goes to the heart of this, but it’s a spurious argument as there are already too many children who have to be taken into care due to circumstances of neglect and cruelty without deliberately adding to this number by putting newborns into the “system “. .

6

Yeah, those are the same Christians who don't want children to have free school meals or free health care either.

5

I'm still amazed at people who think abortion is an easy decision and that women are using it for birth control. No common sense in that idea. Strangely, I was talking coronavirus the other day with a store clerk and said our cases are now over a million in the USA. She quickly compared it to "those millions of babies who are being aborted every day." What babies? Where is this information coming form?

I just looked up US stats. It’s around 800,000 per year. Not quite ‘millions’. Most pro-birthers (most MALE) don’t do any research on numbers. Just tonight one of wanted me to cite numbers on how many abortions are due to rape per year. I told him to Google it🙄.
These folks NEVER miss a chance to spread their propaganda.

5

An unborn embryo is not a human being ergo it is not murder. It's like saying that if you eat an omelette you're eating chicken.

Not a good example due to the fact that in all commercial egg -laying enterprises, the hens never even see a rooster so therefore, the eggs are sterile and not a "chicken".

@dahermit i only buy farm eggs, free range organically raised. So you're wrong dismissing my argument.

@Mofo1953 So then you ARE eating chickens when you eat eggs. 🙂 Just for the sake of argument, fertilized chicken eggs hatch in 21 days. If you eat a fertilized egg the day it is laid, is it a chicken? How about the second day...and so forth? How about the 21st day...is it a chicken?

@dahermit I eat two free range eggs every morning that my neighbor gives me. She has a rooster so I am sure some have been fertilized. That means it is a very good example for me.

@dahermit wow. I eat a farm egg ergo I'm eating a chicken. Brilliant! Great defense of abortion. Unbelievably stupid thing to say.

The question of when life begins is apparently aswered in the Chritian Bible. Oh! Are evangelucals going to be disappointed!
[baltimoresun.com]

@Mofo1953 No you twit. I was talking about chickens...I happen to be pro-abortion, so your assumption is wrong.

True, but vegans don't eat eggs!

@fishline79 wow, an even dumber comment.

@dahermit learn how to write then dumbass, because Lorajay also had issue with your comment.

@Mofo1953 You missed the answer to the question. The answer an intelligent person would have given was that the answer could not be a binary answer, it had to be an analog answer (there is no determinate point (binary) where the egg becomes a chicken...it is an analog process). Look-up "The Dunning-Kruger Effect".

@dahermit bla bla bla dumbass.

@dahermit Are we discussing computers, or chickens?

Reminded me of this

@dahermit No, it is not a chicken nor a chiken embryo until the cells have divided in such a manner as it actually represents the Foetus of a Chicken, the same also applis to Human Embryos as well.

5

The best recent argument I've heard lately goes like this:

Imagine somewhere in the world a person gets a blood disease, a cancer. The only cure is to irradiate and kill all of their bone marrow. As it turns out, there is only one healthy blood match in the world to this person; YOU!! .... This person can not live unless you provide bone marrow. So ..... Does this person have the right to take some of your bone marrow from you to save them from a horrid demise?

Most civilized societies will say "No" because it is your body and it is your right to decide what to do with it. Obviously this can be an analog to an unwanted pregnancy .... does that fetus have the right to demand you carry it to term?

I like to extend the analogy a bit further ..... a band of rogue scientists decided to capture a man and implant an embryo in him .... just to show they can do it! So is this man now obligated to carry this fetus to term?

They did that on The Blacklist this season - put transplanted fetuses into anti-choice men

@A2Jennifer I might have to look for that.

Donating blood, bone marrow, etc, etc, is by the sole hoice of the Donor and the Donor alone just as is, in my opinion, it is the SOLE choice of the woman when she is pregnant as whether or not she either carries the embryo to full term or aborts it.
The body belongs solely to the person inhabiting it and NO-ONE else, ergo, it IS the same as your car, your house, etc, etc, ONLY you and your partner, IF you have one that is, can decide what is permitted in your house/car, etc, etc, and so should it be for the pregnant woman with the exception that it IS her body, her property and HER choice alone.

4

I'll start listing to their diatribes just as soon as they start supporting legislation that takes care of the children that are born.

4

What do you expect from evangelical Christians

4

I don't think there are any "cheerleaders" for abortion.(don't let him guilt you) It's an awful but sometimes necessary action.

twill Level 7 May 3, 2020
4

Just remind them that God personally ordered the killed tens of thousands of innocent children (10 Plagues, Noahs Flood, any bible battle) while creating laws for legal slave ownership

You and I don't believe that, and it won't work with "people of faith" either. Most Christians believe that whenever it's convenient, whatever happens in the "Old Testament" stays in the "Old Testament." Their new god, Jesus, would never drown children or condone slavery. Don't bother telling them Jesus and God are one. If they've figured out how to trick themselves into thinking the Trinity makes any sense, they won't have a problem with that.

@GarytheGondolier I agree that they selectively use different parts of the bible to "support" their beliefs but I enjoy making them uncomfortable as they squirm to come up those reason

For all of that "POWER" of God/ Jesus....it truly comes down to playing around with words

3

“But there are so many people waiting to adopt!....”
Healthy. White. Infants.

Also if you think that carrying a pregnancy to term and raising a child to be a functional human being for no less than 18 years is just an “inconvenience” then you clearly don’t have kids.

3

According to mortality rates, abortion is still safer for women than pregnancy and childbirth. A fewer % of women die from having an abortion than from giving birth. I agree with you that no woman (or young girl) should be forced to carry a child to term before a certain point in her pregnancy. Late term abortions should be granted on a more limited basis and reserved for special cases.

As for how young girls have given birth, a girl in African was documented to have given birth at age 9. Looking up the reference, I found the linked Wikipedia site that says the youngest girl to give birth was 5 years and 7 months. This was in Peru and the girl had a condition which jumpstared her puberty. She still needed to have a cesarian section to deliver the 5.9 pound baby.

In some parts of the world where girls are married off very young and they become pregnant very young, the birthing process causes damage to the womans urethra and creates leakage between the urinary tract and the vagina. Girls that develop this condition typically develop a strong oder which at one time caused them to become outcasts from their communities. The fix is a relatively simple operation, but it isn't one that is readily available to girls in these less developed areas. Oprah Winfrey had a program at one time supporting western doctors addressing this condition in young African women and girls. She may still be supporting this program.

Imo, Christians are disingenuous when they claim to be pro-life. Most of the conservative ones support the death penalty, and they support the party which opposes support for children and families going through hard times - when no work is available, or unwed mothers unable to earn enough to even support themselves.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

they kinda ,sorta,maybe an eensy,weensylittle bit,lean towards supporting all these fucked up wars we create...

@mangro - Only an "eensy,weensylittle bit" ?? 😁

3

I've long given up on debating with those who identify as pro life, it's a waste of my time doing so, folks like that cannot be reasoned with. They use the Bible as an excuse to label such murder, but they fail to realize the Bible contains no shortage of stories depicting violence and murder. While from a personal point of view can't say I care for abortion either, but I cannot ever justify forcing a woman to have a baby that of which she may not be able to afford, and no woman should be forced to have a baby that came from either incest or rape. My advice would be to ignore such people who make absurd comparisons, and stick to doing what you know is the right thing to do, and sounds like you believe in doing just that.

3

The christians are the loudest here in the US, but all over the world I’ve seen how men keeping women in perpetual pregnancy and motherhood very effectively keeps women “in their place,” away from education, jobs, and most other chances to grow and change their lives. Funny how that works ...

Not to mention "Faith Based Conservatism! The first official act of George W Bush was to eliminate US funding for International Family Planning. In a world that's already over-crowded, you want to make sure that women all over the world are pumping out babies like assembly lines, especially in underdeveloped countries....John Frum ditto (I hadn't read your comment)

3

Don’t forget the unwanted child trafficking industry that thrives off of women having limited access birth control and or abortions.
These private non-secular organizations discourage anyone from using their services by either brandishing Christianity at every turn or just flat out tell you, if you are not affiliated with a church, it will make it difficult to adopt.
Been, there, seen this first hand.

3

Don't know how people equate slavery and abortion. Generated some good comments and I guess of you want to stay friends this would be a topic to avoid. Trying to education people on abortion is pretty much like trying to convert a christian.

3

In some cases , the fetus must be aborted because of where the pregnancy took place within the woman . If the fetus attaches itself to the wrong place within the woman , it is physically impossible for it to come to term and it will kill the woman . In some cases , the fetus is badly damaged , as when the pills they were giving women to prevent morning sickness prevented the fetus from developing . Some were very severely damaged . According to the 2015 census report , in today's culture , it costs on average , over $250,000 to raise a child . Very difficult to manage if you are alone , young , and female . Yet, this is what happens , when those men chose to abandon the woman they get pregnant . Abortion is a very painful and difficult decision to make , and not a fun experience , even before you add on the opinions of others . But then so is the alternative .

2

In the case of some people, such as Donald Trump and most of his "base", I think that retroactive abortion would be in order! Glaring ironies abound among anti abortion groups, such as; The same people who denounce abortion as "murder" have no problem with shooting doctors in abortion clinics, or manifesting joyously outside of a prison when a capital punishment is taking place, to wit, the following.

Source:

davidfishel.net-YouTube

2

That Christian should understand that there was no scriptural imperative to end slavery or any of the world's wicked ways. As for the Mosaic Law, 'thou shalt not kill' really meant murder. There was lots of killing sanctioned in the Bible. We're caught between laws that are believed to have come from heaven and Protagorus' 'man is the measure of all things'.
I have a special interest in this now because I would love to have a grandchild but the potential grandchild was recently aborted. I have to accept that my interest isn't the main factor in this but I do lean towards foetuses being potential human beings and in that way are as sacred as living people. That's my Christian slip showing. This world talks a lot about sacredness but doesn't walk the walk. So I accept that we have to be pragmatic too. Some might feel that pragmatism is, by its very nature, lacking love but I don't believe that.

2

What makes you feel the need to justify your opinion. A fetus is not yet a human. It can't survive without the mother's body and it's her right to decide how she wants to use her body. There are so many other silly things an evangelical xtian will criticize you for, what makes this issue more relevant?

@VeronikaAnnJ more than half your post is about dispelling the idea of fostercare or adoption as necessarily valid options. I just question the need to even get that far. The woman's choice. Simple, no questions, no argument, her right, no justification needed.

OwlInASack I agree, but didn't feel the need to unpack it. That you did, is very helpful for others. Thank you.

@VeronikaAnnJ @VeronikaAnnJ I get the idea of what other people think or believe, but I'm saying that's not what I think. Sorry, I was trying to make my point that it is only a debate when any woman's right to make choices about her body REGARDLESS of other considerations, is removed. My point is that a woman should have the right to make all and every decision about her body unilaterally. You give men the right to own any form of death dealing firearm and then you question a woman's rights to make her own decisions about her own body and I wonder if the women are so imbedded into this attitude that they don't see the irony of it. They don't see the simplicity of it as her right but bring in all these counter arguments to confuse the fact that it's her damn body. You say it is not that simple. I'm sorry, I think it really is and the rest is about the way you have been confused by those invested in doing just that.
Perhaps we are just arguing at cross purposes.

1

Your friend gets his talking points from the abortion abolitionist movement, It is very disturbing to me how little we prochoice individuals are paying attention to this movement. The have a huge financial backing and they are gaining a bit more leverage everyday.
The basic philosophy is to not only ban all abortions, including to save the mother’s life but to criminalize it as well. Every single day in states like Mississippi, North Carolina, Alabama women are being harassed, bullied, face physical violence simply trying to access PPH.
Please join some of the FB pages of clinic escorts around this country and watch the videos. I would suggest “The Pink House Defenders” in Jackson Mississippi.
As for your friend, block him with no regret.

1

Just a quick reminder, slavery is not a sin, the bible even teach how to treat a slave and tell the slaves to not revolt.

1

My normal response to these Pro-Lifers is as can be seen in the meme attached.

1

Sad, but true.
Pro life doesn't seem to mean support life, more be glad that once the umbilical chord is cut - "Enjoy your freedom"

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