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Is the human embryo sacred or something special ?

John Wyatt is Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics and a devout Christian.
Here is what he writes about the human embryo:
"At one level the embryo is just biology, a collection of genetic information and cellular machinery. But at the same time it is a physical sign of an immaterial or spiritual reality, even a sacrament of a hidden covenant of creation. A sign that God is bringing forth a new being, a god-like being, a unique reflection of his character, a being to whom he is locked in covenant commitment. (...)
"we have to recognize that not every embryo is destined to develop into a person. More than 50 per cent of all human embryos fail to implant in the uterus or miscarry at an early stage of pregnancy. Studies indicate that the majority of these embryos have major chromosomal anomalies which are incompatible with life."

How is it possible to make these two perspectives compatible? - On the one hand, the human embryo is something sacred, the beginning of a god-like being, on the other hand more than 50 percent of these "sacred beings" are routinely destroyed before they can develop into a child, killed not by wicked abortion doctors, but by nature itself, or - because after all God himself is responsable for everything that happens in nature - by their Creator.

What I cannot understand is how Professor Wyatt can reconcile sacredness and mass-destruction. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of those "pro-lifers" who fight against abortion do not know that more than half of all human embryos are destroyed naturally, without external interference, but our Professor of course is aware of that fact. To me, this is one of the points where biology and religion collide (at least if you agree with Prof. Wyatt that God's covenant with humans starts with conception, and not at a later stage in the fetal development.)

So what do you think? Is the human embryo sacred or something special (inherently and essentially different from, say, a mouse embryo)? If yes: why? Or do we need a supernatural dimension in order to distinguish human and mouse embryos in a moral sense?

Matias 8 Sep 21
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46 comments

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0

Wyatt might claim that if God decides that billions of embryos will not go to full term then believers must accept this decision as necessary if they are to believe in an omniscient God.However it is not for man to claim such authority and decide that potentially viable embryos should not survive.

Of course in being a Pro Lifer the professor wishes to impose his views on those who do not accept the existence of a theistic supernatural figure overseeing all.Religion cannot stay out of such issues as it holds life to be sacred at least at the point of conception not being so concerned as to what happens after an unwanted child actually comes out of the womb.But faith on the basis of belief is what really motivates them not science except where it can occasionally be used to bolster their views otherwise opposing stem cell research which will save so much daily suffering for those enduring the ravages of MS, Parkinson’s and so on.

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Then according to Dr. John Wyatt: Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics, a human embryo is inherently scared due to an innate bond with the Almighty Creator of Time, Space, and Dimension. We are the children of God which makes each and every one of us a special little flower, divine in origin and inherently beautiful.

That's so sweet but I see a problem with that thinking.

His hypothesis hinges entirely on the unprovable existence of an invisible magical being who lives in the sky. So if the Almighty Creator of Time, Space, and Dimension weren't real then Dr. John Wyatt's assertion of the human embryo as sacred is a steaming load that he just made up based on his faith.

But I'll go one better.

Not only are humans not the scared creation of an omnipotent superbeing but there's currently about 8 billion of us covering the planet. Eight billion of ANYTHING is a plague. If there were 8 billion rabbits, or 8 billion koala bears, or 8 billion ring-tailed lemurs, there'd be government programs paying people to kill them in vast numbers.

Dr. John Wyatt: Professor of Neonatal Paediatrics is just another Xian nutjob with an education.

The joke about "pro-lifers" is that they're for the fetus, but as soon as it's a child, screw it, you're on your own. They often despise other's lives, so being just for the fetus is an ego trip to keep women down.

0

Human embryos are animal embryos, no different. Man as god is Ego.

1

It is not sacred because we are not sacred.

0

The only reason this is an issue is to get a number of people who are one issue voters to get this point put forth without realizing the price paid. What else goes with this line of thought? Women's rights, health care, giving up the rights to good health insurance, putting people who will vote against the other things you think matter. Waste chemicals in rivers that use the water for drinking, drilling for oil in places where there is no way to capture any spills, put radioactive material into the environment, making the debt rise with no means to pay it back without taking away SSI, Medicare, Medicade, programs that help the poor. The last time they tried something it cost 40,000,000 homeless to be made, have many jobs that are minimum wage.

1

Nothing special about an embryo, nothing sacred either. A woman has the last say about whether it stays in her body or not.

4

If it's immoral to remove an embryo, then all cancers are also sacred.

If new cells (cancer) are created because of a mutation (which is out of our control) then those are equally sacred, and cannot be touched. Add in anything else that surgeons can remove: bad valves, imperfect anatomy, failing organs, in-grown toenails, the list is endless.

In every hospital in the world, in any moment, people are having their "god-given" cells re-arranged and/or removed by modern medicine.

Why is it that when a man chooses to deposit HIS cells into a woman, they're suddenly "SACRED"????

If they're so bleating SACRED, then he should have kept them TO HIMSELF!!!!

2

The human embryo is neither sacred nor something special. It is simply an early stage in the development of every human organism.

1

I was thinking about sex today. "Love bugs" are being pests this time of year, male and female flys conjoined by their genitals and buzzing haphazardly together.

My point is, an embryo was the best evolution could come up with, and reproduction is slightly more fun for us than for love bugs. What's cool is most mammals look about the same before 8 weeks of gestation, even a human and a mouse. The real debate is what can be mundane and miraculous at the same time? Nature has mastered embryos from before humans walked upright. Sure it's complex, but if early man connected the dots that mating = offspring, it's not as big a deal as mr professor believes.

2

The religious right says that the minute a sperm and an egg shake hands it is a child. Once it is born they no longer give a shit.

1

The existence of the pope is a clear sign that abortion is necessary.

zesty Level 7 Sep 30, 2018
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I am told 20% of pregnancies end in miss-carriage. If everything is "part of god's plan" then god must be the universes greatest abortionist! (I know, I'm taking something, but god know what, out of "context"!)

...I thought you had a valid point!

0

There is a biblical way of having an abortion. A method that is not only approved by God, it was invented by him. He describes it himself in the book of Numbers (5:11-31). It's all part of God's wondrous Law of Jealousies. God's magical abortion procedure. A priest, some bitter water, and a wife that you think might have been unfaithful. Priceless. So if God has his own abortion procedure, abortion can't be wrong, right?

Yes, but that's in the Old Pesterment.

0

A human embryo is not sacred since nothing is "sacred", but unique and special it most certainly is, if only in potential.. Though Pro-Choice must be upheld, I do feel society is too quick to dispose of the unwanted.

I am definitely Pro Choice also. I disagree with your "too quick to dispose of" notion. Choosing abortion is a heart wrenching and tragic personal decision. However, It is for many of us a necessary sorrow. Woman are intelligent human beings. Give us some credit and support us in our decisions. We know the nature of what is developing inside of OUR bodies. The "sacredness" (I wish I could think of a better word) of the embryo to each each individual woman is not constant or equal. The percentage of woman who make the decision to terminate an embryo or fetus hastily or uncaringly is miniscual. The country and the world for that matter need recognize women for intelligent and responsible choices we are capable of making.

@OwlInASack We are never in a position to make absolute statements about value, all value statements are necessarily subjective. The best that we can ever hope for is to achieve a general assent.

The value of a human individual is immeasurable regardless of their circumstance. However technically an embryo is not an individual until "birth" or separation from the mother. In the search for moral standards the law seeks to establish when an embryo has the viability to survive detachment.

3

If god treats zygotes with so little consideration, how can they be holy? We share 97% of our genetic information with every living creature on earth. Not just mammals, either. Birds fish bugs, all of it. The difference between a mouse embryo and a human enbryo is 3% give or take.

2

Get your bible out of our vagina and shove it up your ass!

zesty Level 7 Sep 26, 2018

@dan325 🙂

0

Abortion rules

0

Nothing is sacred.

Carin Level 8 Sep 25, 2018

Or everything is sacred, we are not that special.

0

Is no too simply of an answer?.........

1

the justification is easy as silk. "God called them home". when your fantasy includes a being who can do no wrong, then even obvious wrongs become right when it does them.

genocide is wrong, but the flood was right. War is wrong, but the destruction of Jericho was right.

no problems.

not a believer, just saying, they can justify anything in that story, anything at all.

1

I think it's special in as much as an acorn is, because of it's potential, which is kind of cool. Some seeds have to be burnt to reproduce of course 😉

@OwlInASack You are right. They could grow up to be Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Trump. We certainly wouldn't want to miss that. As far as l'm concerened if you ain't carrying it, you have no say.

4

If the joining of a sperm and egg is somehow a sign of a spiritual reality or a sacrament of sorts (however he's defining that), I have to wonder whether he believes the same for chickens and pigs, whose embryonic development is so similar to that of humans, and if not why not. He seems to have no basis for his claim except that he believes in the supernatural. That seems to be justification enough for him, but I need reasons backed by science or strong logic (not theology or metaphysics). I've never heard a sufficient argument to support such spiritual-reality assertions.

Well stated! Humanocentric hubris is behind all of this 'specialness' and 'sacred' nonsense. And when in our evolutionary history was this designation achieved? Were our hominid ancestors endowed with the same 'sacred spark' that we inherited? How many millions of years have we been 'special?'

0

What an interesting observation. I can’t speak from an intellectual point of view with this. I don’t believe I could abort a child in uterine because it is a living being who has the right to live. However I would not push this on others. This is central to my beliefs. I recognize the biology and the understanding of divinity in the biology. I suppose it is complicated.

Ingi Level 3 Sep 23, 2018

A child? Is that what women are calling blastocysts nowadays? And what is divine about IVF? Are each of the numerous fertilized eggs, nearly all of which are discarded, considered 'sacred?' These embryos are typically frozen, so is the 'divine spark' likewise 'on ice?' Consider what the future of IVG holds, where women, with or without the assistance of a male donor, will have their eggs harvested and fertilized by sperm-like cells in a laboratory so that they can analyze the candidates for genetic characteristics, freeze the promising ones, and discard the rest. This is already happening in a number of countries. This genie will not return to the bottle. Soon, genetic analyses and engineering will enable the ideal traits to be selected, and unwanted embryos will be discarded by the hundreds of millions.

@pnfullifidian you seem very passionate. I protect my own. That is where my passion lies.

@Ingi Your body, your choice ... and as a man, I don't even think we (males) should have a say in the matter! Peace.

@pnfullifidian my spouse didnt allowme say in having future children. He had himself snipped without my permission. When men stop being assholes about that sort of thing, then we can talk about who has what say over my body. Peace out!

@Ingi Okay, I think I understand. Your spouse is (was?) your partner who went against your wishes, and because of your spouse's behavior, men should stop being assholes before we can have a conversation about who has a say in a woman's right over her body? If it is your position that you have (or should have had) veto power over your husband's reproductive decisions, then it follows that he would hold similar power over yours. But all of this is between the two of you, and should have no direct bearing on the public debate. Just as our partners hold infinitely more significance than our elected representatives, there's a huge difference between the intimate decisions made in the privacy of our homes and laws made in statehouses.

2

Thought experiment:

You are visiting a fertility clinic. A fire breaks out on one of the theatres, and is rushing towards the oxygen tanks. When it reaches them, the entire place goes.

You are in a corridor. On one side is a cooler containing 50 frozen embryos, immersed in liquid nitrogen and ready for transport. On the other is a baby, screaming in terror. You have only got time to rescue one, and if you hesitate, everyone dies.

Who do you choose?

The child. Right of the living. The other is only potential.

@Ingi ex-motherfucking-actly.

1

Matias, this is very similar to the (very interesting) question you put out the other day on the reconciliation of religion and science. As I said then, many scientists compartmentalize their faith and practical knowledge, as humans are incongruous in thought, deed and emotion on a daily basis. The professor in this case tries to merge the two and finds himself in a logical cul-de-sac. I get what he is saying as conception is an amazing thing. It’s an incredible mathematical chance that you are you, and one spermatozoa among millions penetrated one egg, when human ovulation is a tricky thing. On the other hand it’s such a common occurrence that there are seven billion of us! Human conception is at once as mundane as shitting and as incredible as the Big Bang. In the grander scheme of the world and in a biological sense, a human embryo is not a sacred thing - it is a product of reproduction and is no higher or lower in order in the natural world than a germinating acorn or a mouse embryo. However socially the family unit, fertility and conception have taken on a meaning beyond genetics. Anthropologically insemination and pregnancy can bond kinsmenship and identity of the clan, unite or divide clans, form the basis of social cohesion and peace, claims to territory or war. Pregnancy is imbued with ritual and birth is a right of passage. That is why women’s fertility is controlled by men to this day. That is why to some people believe it is sacred - thousands of years of programming. It’s the key to survival of your group and your genes. It is logical that most of society think an embryo is sacred, and that murder is evil. It’s all tied to primeval survival. Truth be told that both conception and murder are mundane daily occurrences.

Livia Level 6 Sep 23, 2018

@Matias I am honored that you liked my comment! I also like your questions.

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