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Is there anyone here that values the teachings of the bible, but rejects it's supernatural elements?

I believe in objective ethics, and a lot of good ethics overlaps with biblical values. Reason tells me that religious communities have a lot of successful values we can adopt. But it's the dogma and reliance on faith that gets me sad about religious communities.

Wrain62 4 Oct 30
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9

You assume that there are "the teachings of the bible". But the book contradicts itself numerous times and then there are multiple interpretations. By ignoring the supernatural you are cherry picking and when you choose which part you like you add another layer of cherry picking. Sorry but this approach seems worthless to me. You already have a moral compass. You already know what you think is morally correct. In the bible you will find nothing new. There are a lot of better books to get inspired by that don't also condone murder, rape, genocide, slavery ect. ect.

Dietl Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

That about sums it up.

@TheMiddleWay
You don't seem to know what cherry picking is. Your examples of learned things are not necessarily cherry picking. It is about ignoring certain aspects of a thing in order to still believe in the value of that thing. In this case it is about remaining to see the bible as a moral authority only by ignoring certain parts.
It's a subtle difference, I know, but your comments misses the point of what I was trying to say. Choosing to pick what you like from the bible is not a bad thing but then you have to be aware what the source of your morality is. In this case it is you, not the bible.

2

i do not find mostly good teachings in the bible (and of course you have not said which bible; i have not read the christian one, but everything i've heard about it seems awfully confused). the bible with which i am familiar has a story in it that teaches one to welcome strangers -- but these days everyone interprets that story as teaching one to be homophobic. the same bible teaches one that it's okay to murder one's innocent son as long as one hears voices. come to think of it, it's also okay to get one's father drunk and rape him. i like the story of david and tamar, but onan is confusing. i don't think of the bible as a book of teachings. i think of it as a sometimes interesting, sometimes less so book of fantabulous stories, most of them with anti-morals. so "values" is the wrong word here, for me at least. you can probably find better teachings in a stephen king novel (i can't swear to that, as i don't enjoy the horror genre, but king seems like a nice, smart man, and i don't know a lot about the guys who wrote the bible).

g

5

If you can't tell the difference from right and wrong,
you don't lack religion, you lack empathy.

No need for an ancient book to tell you that.

@VictoriaNotes ok

2

Similar to Confucius and his anelects, the old testament likely codified certain practices in ancient society that were widespread in acceptance(for whatever reason)and contributed to societal stabilization.
The new testament, was an attempt to reconcile a modern day teacher(Jesus) to these Torah stories, in the process to establish a new church.
Today we live in a post-christian world. While our laws and mores are based on Christian values, very few actually believe the underpinning beliefs.

...well put

2

There is one all important teaching you can get from the bible, if not find in the bible, and that is.
Don't base your whole life on just one book, if you do read more than one book make sure they are not all derived from one book, and if you can only read one book try to find a better one.

...yes- drinking the coolAID
does get folks dead⚠️

@BBJong Wow thanks! You just taught me an Americanism (British) I did not know. Coolaid: I will remember that one.

2

There’s nothing original in that book ?

Nardi Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

@TheMiddleWay It's actually ridiculous to say that however if a book claims to be the truth and is then found out to be a fraud then yes its worthless or worse still..dangerous.

0

The ethics you are pushing here are subjective ethics so I cannot go along with this idea at all. For the most part religions do not have ethics. You post is similar to saying Superman can run fast and he is strong, but he cannot fly.

4

I think you've got it backwards, good ethics existed long before the bible

@TheMiddleWay i agree but your post addressed good ethics not bad. additionally your opening statement seemed to present the bible as the source of good ethics. if i misunderstood, i apologize.

@TheMiddleWay oops.....just realized you were not the original poster. replace "your post" with the OPs post and "your opening statement" with the OPs opening statement and i take back my apology 😉

3

Yes, it's all in the interpretation. As a U.U we believe there is much to learn from the Bible. I definitely don't believe it is infallible, but it is a very interesting piece of literature that can be interpreted in a very Progressive Way.

2
4

I could reject Harry Potter's supernatural elements and still get more from the series than I could from the Bible

1

I think there'd be far fewer assholes in the world, if Christians actually followed the teachings of the man they are supposed to follow. To me, Jebus' teachings are the important part, it is totally irrelevant if he is the Son of God or not. Plus, the entire thing of Christ is My Savior, really is only a selfish way to ensure you get to Heaven, not whether you gave a plug about humanity or being nice to people.

2

Yes, I think JC was a pretty tough, smart guy and I agree with most of what he reportedly taught. There’s nothing divine or unique there—other books are equally interesting.

Hindu scriptures especially attract me. Those ancient Indians actually addressed the deep questions of existence while the Hebrew Bible is a mixture of myth and history.

...no patent on ethics
...constant update

2

It's no wonder they overlap. The "divine wisdom" of the religious was simply stolen from, or modeled after, the common sense of common people.
One of the more annoying assertions from the religious is that non-believers get their morals from Christianity, when in actual reality it's the other way around.
Communities don't function because religion imposes values onto people. Religion flourishes in communities with strong social connections, and then takes credit for the prosperity, as it does for each and every single positive achievement of good people.

I value plenty of things in the bible. No murder, no theft, no flaunting your faith, etc.
Not as divine wisdom or authoritarian ethics. It just oh, so coincidentally happens to overlap with my conscience as a social mammal.

6

"The teachings of the Babble"... not so much........do you mean sacrificing your only child? Pimping out your wife for grazing land? Sleeping with your daughters after your wife gets turned into a pillar of salt? How about offering your daughter to a raging mob? Worshipping a gawd who kills off your entire family, gives you dire physical problems, and reduces you to poverty...but then "replaces" all of it.
Or, on a bigger scale, burning & pillaging & raping/murdering entire countries because your gawd told you it was yours? (Oh, wait.........)

@Donotbelieve ta for the reminder!

3

Nah, I gave up on using religion as a source of morals. Too much hate, ignorance and corruption. The only reason Christianity seems to have developed ethics is becuase the societies they exist in demand ethical progress.

2

The loving thy enemy as thyself parts? The do unto others as you would have them do unto you parts? Sure. I can go along with that stuff. The selling your wives and daughters in to slavery parts? The divinely sanctioned genocide parts? Not so much.

1

Some, certainly not all. Remember, the Bible is only a collection of stories.... Written by man... So it's actually the teachings of man from a long time ago.

@OwlInASack many TV shows, movies. Plays, are based on overcoming evil and being good...

2

The only thing I really took from the bible is "Treat others as you want to be treated." That pretty much says it all. I disregard the rest.

Della Level 6 Oct 30, 2018
6

I don't value or respect the teachings of the Bible. It's necessary to cherry pick the bits that are ethically sound, which means we're already applying our own standards of morality to the text to distance ourselves from the teachings about killing disobedient children, adulterers, homosexuals, workers on the Sabbath, etc., the teachings that women could have no authority over men and shall not teach men, the tacit approval of slavery, the treatment of women as property, and on and on. But what about "turn the other cheek" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," I hear someone ask. Ah, that's where the cherry picking begins. Jesus says some peaceful things, but even within the Gospel there's a difference in tone and message depending on where you're reading. Jesus also says that he hasn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, that he has come bearing a sword rather than an olive branch, that he's here to turn parent against child, sibling against sibling, and neighbor against neighbor, that you should leave your family, sell your belongings, and give no thought to the future because the end times are upon us. You can read into Christian scripture almost anything, because it says almost everything. This is why liberals think of Jesus as a hippy who gives away free healthcare and cares about poor people and conservatives see him as a capitalist who says if you don't work you don't eat. It's the reason the KKK thinks Jesus supports them in their hate. As much as I dislike the Westboro Baptist Church, everything they stand for is in the Bible and can be fully justified by scripture; they're living their faith. And I haven't even gotten to the motivations of Paul and others who used the early Christian movement to their advantage, twisting it for social influence to bring about political change in ways that may or may not have been worthy at the time but have no bearing today. So, no, I don't value the teachings of the Bible. Whatever areas of overlap exist is irrelevant and when people identify with one passage that sounds reasonable they're more likely to accept the more questionable teachings of that anthology text. It's better, I think, to ignore the teachings of the Bible (but not be ignorant of them) and use secular ethics to guide our lives.

6

What a colossal waste of time..... What's the value in trying to find meaning in obscure and cryptic passages of a specific place and time completely out of our own context?

@TheMiddleWay Well, I did post my comment as an open question without even thinking that will invite for answers. Totally my bad. That wasn't the intention. One last comment though. Anyone is free to use their time as they see fit and they can find meaning on anything of their choosing. I am just saying I wouldn't spend my time on any bible reading at all.

1

In my opinion, there is very little to value in the bible that was not already there before the bible or has been replaced by modern humanist society.

@TheMiddleWay Your opinion is noted as is mine.

1

I find bits of it helpful because I already know the Bible and I'm able to use it to help my friends consider higher perspectives since they believe in it, but I would never recommend it to anyone looking for truth. I wouldn't suggest any of my children read it to gain good insights. The problem comes that there are some powerful truths mixed in with the truly bad stuff and people tend to believe it's the infallibe word of God. That's what makes it dangerous because people are justifying things that they could easily understand are wrong. We would be better off if every copy of the Bible was burned.

2

There are sociological elements in the bible that are of a pragmatic nature. "Judge not, lest ye be judged.", "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor." (lying AND gossiping...if you did not see it yourself, you are "bearing false witness" when you pass it on as fact.

3

Could simply be that the message to be good to each other is something we all know instinctively at birth and find difficult to reject.

@TheMiddleWay I disagree. The first time I killed something I didn't need someone to tell me it felt wrong. Same with the first time I was mean to someone. Same with every time I make someone cry. You just know some things are wrong

@TheMiddleWay
Studies on biological altruism suggest that many of the behaviors we call ethical or moral have biological roots. Culture is called into play more often as a corrective against evolutionary mismatch - when the environment changes more rapidly than the biology can adapt to it.

One such major change in environment was the agricultural revolution, which was followed shortly by the rise of organized religion.

It looks to me that many of our basic moral behaviors originate from our biology, but are fortified and corrected by religion and other cultural input. But our inclination to create culture, itself, is also probably biologically based, so none of it is going away anytime soon (unless we all go with it).

When we started living in cities, our instinctual morality wasn't up to the task, so our culture had to pick up the slack. We had to teach each other how to get along with others who were not our direct kin. Cultural altruism evolved.

In addition to the golden rule, etc., most religions also teach lessons on how to transcend ego identity toward the goal of generating less suffering for self and other. This is not totally outside the realm of the golden rule, but a further refinement of it.

@TheMiddleWay We can convince ourselves anything is OK. People justify morally wrong things all the time. It is kinda what people do. I am not suggesting you can't train/educate or go against the way you feel but reasoning through something is hardly how you feel about it. People can also detach how they feel about things or ignore them if convenient. Justified or not I would find it surprising to hear someone say killing something (anything) felt right. I could even understand not feeling anything at all

@TheMiddleWay
Yes, that's about how I see it. Our biology gives us tendencies but doesn't force us (in most cases) to do it. Our current and local culture tells us which natural impulses are to be expressed or denied and how, when, etc.

@TheMiddleWay Perhaps. For me people add all the grey to justify actions that go against our morality? I mean that is always how I have viewed it. I mean when I internalize that discussion when I have been a shitty human those are the things I try to make myself feel better about it. Convincing myself I did the "right thing" given the circumstances when the circumstances don't really matter how I made someone feel is what matters. Morally it can still be/feel wrong but we can still allow ourselves to feel justified in our actions.

@skado ...like dress codes for
school..

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