religion IS belief in a superhuman power, so how can it be separated from god (=superhuman power)?

@walklightly i know a lot of people who believe in a "higher power" or "higher authority" or whatever, who can't stand religions. Not everyone thinks "God" is some cloud man in the sky doling out eternal nastiness. I read a series of books some years back, called Conversations With God, it was actually a great read, and not at all representative of the God of religion. And in fact, in those books, "God" referred to religion as an insane set of rules designed to try to make sense of an insane God.
I've actually come to the conclusion that "God" is actually just "energy.

@Taijiguy, is this conversation about energy or about an imaginary friend? because, to be frank with you, i am quite interested in the topic of energy, but utterly flabbergasted, if not to say snickering hysterically, at the idea of non-recognition of the difference between sensation & belief. i do sense energy with my physical body, no doubt about it, & no belief required. in an entity called "god" on the other hand i have to believe, because it does not exist, can not be experienced on any level of my real being. now you ask me to respect a "god" that appears in a book & is actually just energy, telling the reader what an asshole another "god" is. what a pompous jerk! i rest my case.

@walklightly i don't think you read my comment carefully.
First, the comment was focused on the separation of religion from a belief in a "God". I know many people who do in fact believe in a God, (higher power) but have nothing but disdain for religion. There's plenty of them in 12 step groups around the world.
Regarding the books, the God speaking in those books, again, was critical of religion, not of the God the religions represent. (being him/her self) because those religions have distorted "God" into something it isn't.
The energy comment is my interpretation of what is really being referenced with the name "God". If you consider the main components of descriptions of what "God" is, it makes perfect sense. All places at all times, is the creator of everything, etc. I could go even deeper, but it gets a little weird when you throw in nanotechnology and quantum physics.

@Taijiguy, i did read your comment as carefully as only a non-manipulated self-thinking person can. you equate "god" with energy, which makes no sense to me at all. i have a certain power over energy, being a living, breathing being. the idea of "god" is that of a superhuman power, which makes me dependent on its whim. believing in a "god", i have created a religion; that is actually what religion means. separating the idea of "god" from religion is like denying the fact that if i recognize breathing in a being it belongs in the realm of the living. the book you keep referring to seems to be written by a confused (or sadistic) person, & as for your statement about "many people...believe in a god" & the example of the 12-step groups, well, it just shows me once more, how many truly deluded, lost souls this beautiful planet of ours carries. oh, & by all means, let's get weird. i'm all for it.

@walklightly that idea of "God" that you describe only exists because you've been told that's what he/she/it is. I'll believe you're actually a non-manipulated free thinker as soon as you let go of that concept. My theory of God makes no sense because you adhere to what you've been told God is. I don't. I believe in energy, I believe in the universe, and I believe in all the universe holds for us.
When God of the Bible was asked who he was, do you know what "he" said?
.
And as for the lost and deluded souls, I know and love many of them. My dad being one, who was an alcoholic for most of his life until he stepped into an aa meeting. His belief in a power greater than himself helped him get sober. You may believe that he's delusional, but those people get help from their delusions.

@Taijiguy I have zero problem with a believer who can admit that their beliefs are just unsubstantiatable personal preferences / experiences and non-binding on anyone but themselves. But in my experience, that has happened on sites open to theists, possibly two or three times in several years of participation. If you are able to agree with the above statement then you're a rarity. My guess though is that you are more like some of the more coherent "roll your own" professedly areligious types the way you say that if we just understood god correctly like you do rather than listen to all the incorrect god-information not sourced from you, that it would start making sense. There's a guy on c-d who is a retired academic with a very detailed manifesto about his very one-off god-beliefs and he'll openly tell you you're just dense if you find his beliefs make no sense. He's as derisive of fundamentalists as any atheist is, yet ... like most believers, he thinks he's found the truth and it's self-evident to anyone with an open mind. Not all liberal / atypical believers have epistemological humility or hold their faith loosely. In fact, very few actually do.

@mordant your guess would be wrong. I don't really concern myself with what others believe. I'll share my ideas, feel free to take it or leave it.: -)

yes, @PuppeteerPhil, it is, & i'm actually cringing. this is so untypical of the usually friendly tone on this site

Without going through over 300 comments, I am curious about to which comment are you replying about "lived a sheltered life"?

@LetzGetReal Thanks!! ??

i feel that ignoring them allows them to settle in comfortably with their vile & stupid drivel, much like a cuckoo with her eggs. so i am left with one option only, & for at least two reasons that just doesn't appeal to me. firstly, because it IS only one option, no choice left, & secondly, i did not come to this site for low-level intelligent discussions about imaginary friends & their manipulative powers. this is refuge to me, refuge from babble bashers.

Good point, this place would have a LOT more "arguing" / heated discussion with theists in the mix, believe me.

I think that's cool Cherish -- that you joined groups to learn and be supportive of your son.

Wel, if anyone goes off, the Admin can just eject him/her, right?

@GoldenMean In theory, yes. In practice, they'd probably have to add more admins, it becomes a lot more work to police it. I suppose very strict rules of engagement could be promulgated and the ban-hammer wielded liberally, but it soon starts to involve things like detecting / swatting sock puppets when they try to come back under another handle, etc. I think it will make moderator's jobs harder, not just make it unpleasant for us.

City-data has very strict moderation, no cussing (oddly, crap is an okay word, but not shit, go figure) and prohibits proselytization in the atheism & agnosticism forum. TheThinkingAtheist is far more hands off, more user-regulated (sometimes not all that well). They have a very different feel.

One way C-D maintains civility and order is they don't tolerate much scientific debate for example on the atheism & agnosticism OR the religion and spirituality forums. So as soon as you get into some substantive debate involving evolution, you inevitably find the thread shut down as off-topic because you end up explaining / discussing the science. Over on the science forum you get shut down for religion talk. It's kind of stilted that way.

It FLOORS me how many religious stations are on DirecTV. I would seriously like to opt out of all of them -- as in not even see them. It's ridiculous.

Problem is, many of them don't come to listen, they come to talk. And talk. And talk.

Sometimes methinks they doth protest too much on other unbeliever forums where they're welcome. I think some of them ARE curious. Others want to sharpen their apologetics / debate form, although they are generally awful at it and never seem to improve.

It wouldn't necessarily be pointless to walk into some kinds of Churches, the ones that hold beliefs very loosely or iconoclastically. One can find much common cause with liberal theism, if you can ignore the god talk. My wife volunteers at a food kitchen run by Episcopalians for example. So in a way I could see more open / intellectually honest believers coming by for a chat, but sadly, mostly what you get are the fundamentalist nutjobs and some unaffiliated types who make it up as they go.

thank you, this is such a perfectly succinct perspective; where do i sign it? i certainly couldn't have said it better; it resonates with me 100%. just for once not having to feel tense & prepared to be chopped down by the cerebrectomised ones... what an enlivening experience!

Bravo!

Sadly, I've run into a few "knuckle daggers" here.

i am not a believer, so i can & will not answer your question; just to point out something about belief: if i would want there to be a god, but have no scientific or other evidence of a god existing, then, & only then will i need a belief in such a god. would i have knowledge of a god existing, on the other hand, belief would become superfluous. i understand myself as an agnostic (i have no knowledge of a god existing), as well as an atheist (i do not believe that a god exists).

@walklightly Correct, I do not need to Believe in my Pickup, I know it to be real.

precisely, @Davesnothere

& what reason, do you think, a believer would have to join a website called "agnostic"? i don't reckon it's for "productive discourse"; at least that's not my experience.

@walklightly: that's a fair question. i would imagine the same folk, like me, who were once believers and wondered if there's something else.

fair enough, @wolffr13. it's just not my experience on this site. the only believer i did encounter & keep stumbling upon is very much determined to convince everyone who is willing to listen & engage in "discourse" that there is a god blabla. i can argue him down to the nub, until he slithers out of the conversation - just to start off with someone else. for his opportunistic attitude not to follow through to the bitter end of his arguments, i had to place him into the "asshole" category - he grabs topics, turning them into his & taking time, energy & focus from many.

so far i only encountered one condescending believer.

I have run into a couple of theists that are much less then pleasant including a condescending, atheist mocking, science ridiculing level 7 member of this site.

your comment contains at least 7 (seven) assumptions, so it's gonna be a tad difficult to disentangle your "message" from the mess, but i'll try my damnedest.

1. "no one has any idea why they believe" = false, many believers will tell you that it gives them comfort & a sense of belonging.
2. "..nor the ability to discern what they believe from reality" = how would YOU know?
3. "agnostics...have doubt" = false, i have no knowledge AND no doubt.
4. "humanists a general belief..." = false, humanism is not attached to any "general belief".
5. "we all believe in something" = absolutely false. i believe in nothing.
6. "most non-religionists [never heard that term before] are called atheists" = statistics, please.
7. "afraid that...your assumed ideas..." = how would YOU know?

& there goes your "MESSage".

this website is designed to serve the agnostic community.
if i come across a website that caters to christians (as in: believers in a christian god) i will, as a heathen, be able to muster the selfcontrol & tolerance to steer clear of it.
if, on the other hand, you prefer to engage in lively discussions about the pros & cons of belief or not, i am sure you will find a website on the worldwide web that will accommodate this desire.
agnostics.com is NOT it.

@walklightly Thank you for saving me a great deal of time, I felt obligated to point out a similar list. I would have included for your #2 response that many atheists (like myself) use the scientific method (testable repeatable verifiable based on real world facts i.e. reality) and although not infallible, has provided the best methodology . . . "to discern what they believe from reality"

it should be easy to figure out which believer is sitting on the fence; it's what the initial profile questions are for.
the one experience i have with a believer here is rather grating, as the person keeps fading in the background once he runs out of arguments, only to crop up somewhere else & start his condescending dispute for a god again.
apart from all that i can't really be bothered with what believers need, not on this site. i came here to get away from the constant bigotry, not to have this, my refuge, poisoned by it as well.

can monkeys not chatter?

I share your position. I have, however burned many hours trying to "education" but in reality infuriating theists on this website.

welcome! me too.