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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

Draco 6 Sep 25
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583 comments (376 - 400)

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3

Anyone can be blocked, if you find them offensive! I once tried to get through most view points...then I discovered I don’t have the capacity for that and there is no problem in my own mind now about other people!

9

Keep a lid on it to the extent possible. Don't want to waste my energy hearing their tired theology ideology.

8

Liberal, respectful religious people are okay with me. I have some friends who attend church or synagogue or mosque. They know that I do not practice religion and they are okay with that. It is the arrogant, aggressive, judgmental kind who should not be here, and if they come here to argue or preach, then, I hope the admins will kick them off. But the respectful religious - I have no problem with them.

SKH78 Level 8 May 21, 2018
5

The only way to win is to spread the idea and invite discourse.
The "Believer" might actually have doubts and comes here to find mental food for his separation from the belief. I don't think this should be a safe space echo chamber only for the true (Non)-belivers. I think we should be inclusive - the opposite of religions or sects. If for every 20 ignorants we convert one doubter, it is worth it.

Joerg Level 3 May 22, 2018

i'm actually not interested in winning anything here; i joined the community for intelligent conversation about mutual interests, coming from gazillions of different view points. i am all for inclusive, as long as this includes respect & acceptance of personal boundaries. the few believers i have encountered to date were of the obnoxiously preaching kind, pushing their agenda regardless of the other - they didn't last long.

@walklightly Agreed - With "Winning" I mean win over someones mind, or win a discussion.

@Joerg, i think i understood you just fine. my point is that i didn't come here to "win over" anyone's mind - or a discussion. i came to learn about the fascinating kaleidoscope of human vantage points: where others are coming from, without needing to change the opinion they might have developed from that vantage point. to simplify it: the student versus the preacher.

@Joerg Why do you want to win over someone's mind. In my opinion you would be proselytizing your ideas to another person in order to convert them. I see no difference between your activist ideas compared to a proselytizing theist. Are you an Anti-theist? Do you feel compelled to attack their faith and belief?

5

I hate dogma and you will not hear me speak of God or Atheism. This is because I am an activist for humanity. That means, Religion, Belief Systems, Racism, Bigotry are not a consideration with me. Humanity has the right to choose their belief system and gender preference. I am interested in helping all humanity in living a much better life, not just a chosen few. I will not defend any belief system. I do not go to church. I accept no dogmatic religion or GOD. I consider myself a spiritual person, which leaves much leeway to think about. I fight for the life of this planet, the animals, domestic and wild, the water, the air, all that humanity needs to live a happy life. I am not to be feared and I remain neutral in belief because of my activism. I will not answer any more about this. I consider all free and welcome regardless of who or what they are. I am committed to my work, so I will hassle no one, except do not hate me for I fight for the rights and decency of all of you.

2

Only if they are joining in order to grant perspective into why they are Religious, as we do for why we don't believe in Religion. If it is to try and start arguments then so be it, but if all they fan threaten us with is eternal damnation then I will sleep easy at night

4

I don't know why believers would have any interest in joining this site. What would be the point?

trolling, as far as my experience goes.

5

My point is that I don't want to hear their crap. Don't waste my time. Believers joining is a waste of internet.

@Lonely, if someone feels offended by your opinion, e.g. "the most stupid song", it certainly is that person who has issues with respect of other opinions. tell them that - &, please, stay a while. we want outspoken people here 🙂

@Lonely I just block those people. I'm not here to argue with theists, or to take abuse or disrespect from anyone. I've probably blocked 15 people; some just because they annoy me. I don't give a f*** what they have to say.

@Lonely Stay! We need a diversity of opinions.

4

It's like having a couple of Mormons or JW's come to your door. You just know you'd be beating your head against a wall trying to explain your stance; just as they are wasting their time here. Religious people have caused more trouble in the world than atheists. Can't they just go away?

you can make them go away: block 'em.

@LetzGetReal LMAO!

Please just go away

3

live and let live im sure some of you would drive them away they would not wanna stay long

Believers are the ocean supporting the violent criminal theocrat sharks swimming most everywhere depths of patriarchy. ....if any beach here let's cybershoot 'em. ...44 magnum through the virtual eyes of delusion. ...maybe a Quaker for Peace might want to date a Veteran for Peace here but face facts the alleged hell threat nor heaven bribes perpetrators are not seeking forgiveness from Atheists nor condemning their bibles calling us "fools" "reprobates"

5

I still hold to some beliefs of faith. They are my own. I have no interest in imposing them on others. I am interested in others thoughts on topics of faith, spirituality, religion without trying to convert anyone to my own ideas.

Well spoken no more need be said

@Geoffrey51 Nice camel.

2

We might be able to change there minds about there brain washing. If they persist spewing there illogical bs, they should be banned from this web site.

1

I don't see there would be a problem. The term 'Believers' seems to be used in a derogatory sense implying outsiders or outcasts. As history shows us these mindsets lead to witch trials and that misleadingly sanitised phrase 'ethnic cleansing'. By considering that individual beliefs are non-inclusive to any society is a dangerous road to travel. Both the religious and non-religious can benefit from each other's experience and insights.

Do you really think the members of this site are that parochial and have persecutive mindsets? Yes, the religious with open minds could benefit from the posts and comments here; but, are you interested in being preached to, or in arguing with any of them? I'm not, not in the least bit.

Hi Condor perhaps viewpoints from other perspectives are useful. Maybe there is some refined content that can be gleaned from argument and intelligent discourse. If we are confident in our personal worldview preaching or apolgetics is not to be concerned about.

@Geoffrey51, if talking to a believer as opposed to an evidentialist i mostly just want to keep yawning - it's so boring & irrelevant what people, who don't care to differentiate between fact & fiction, have to contribute to any conversation. i have the most enlightening, inspiring & fun discourses with other realists here, whereas the few run-ins i had with believers all turned out to be stifling & angry - which isn't what i came here for.

@LetzGetReal ... and of course we can resort to the pitchforks and torches. Good point?

@LetzGetReal .... Ah, metaphor is over- rated for me ?

3

I'm of a like mind as you. Either they want to convert, disrupt, or find material to refute, I would wager. It's possible there may be the odd one who is actually objectively interested in what goes on here, and why; but, certainly they are few and far between.

5

I go to church for two reasons: I love to sing and am a member of a kick-ass choir. We sing a lot of early music, which I love because it's challenging and beautiful. The other reason is that the folks there care about each other, and they care about me in a way that makes me feel like they "get" the Golden Rule (which is part of every religion). They don't care that I'm agnostic and I don't care that they believe. The priest is gay and gives good sermons that help me to remember how to love my neighbor better (this is helping me in what has turned out to be a very ugly divorce.) Whatever anyone on this site thinks/believes is fine with me. Just be kind.

So, it's not a Catholic church, presumably. It's nice you can find community with common interests.

I think you are very fortunate to have an open minded and caring fellowship. Did you read several months ago about the church somewhere out west where the the lady pastor told the congregation that she is an atheist? It was is a protestant church. The congregation likes her so much that they want to keep her anyway, but the governing body ( southern Baptist or something like it) says she can't stay. I don't know the outcome but you can Google and find it if interested. Really interesting to me.

@Condor5 It's an Episcopalian congregation, not that it matters.

@Grecio yes, I read that! She still preached even as an unbeliever! I'm sure there are more pastors who've preached many years, only to realize they no longer believe. The difference is they never told! To me, her actions showed a great devotion to her job and congregation, not her deceit.

One of my favorite composers is John Rutter, an Atheist who is composer in residence and conductor of Kings Choir College in UK. He writes the most beautiful sacred music compositions I've ever heard. Those works at times bring me to tears because of their exquisite beauty.

I don't like Rutter less because he's an Atheist; I love him MORE! I had the fortune to sing with him here and asked him once why he wrote Christian music when He didn't believe himself. He said he loved the people at Kings Choir, and is grateful for the way they've taken care of him and his family all these years. And when he lost his son, they were there for him through his depression and suicidal feelings. He said he considered these people who took him in and accepted him so easily his friends and family, "and so, I just write the music that makes them happy and comforts them." That is a truly noble human being to me.

@Lewellyn3 Our choir sings Rutter's music. It is truly sublime. I didn't know anything about his private life, and what you wrote makes me respect him even more.

10

I've been on this board eight months now. I have benefited a lot from reading your posts, your ideas, (non)beliefs, and opinions.

As a Christian, I came here to learn and to "build a bridge" after I read an article that stated Atheists are the most persecuted people in America. I have good friends who are atheists/agnostics and we confide in each other about many things. But they've never confided to me about this prejudice. When I asked them one day at lunch, their answer was, "Well, we didn't want to worry you with that. It really isn't any concern of yours." My reply was, "But it is my concern. My black friends, Muslim friends, Hispanic friends can talk to me about injustices, why can't you?"

Having grown up in the church all my life has sheltered me from prejudice as much as being born white and middle-class has. When you've only known one way of life, only one faith, only heard one rhetoric about a group of people, you stay the same and never grow. Had I not chosen the field of music as a career, requiring my travel to different countries, working with people of different creeds and customs, I would have never had such a diverse supply of friends. It hurts me to hear about these injustices. And I feel these injustices and prejudices stem from a lack of understanding.

So I came here, knowing I'd be met with suspicion, dislike, some rage. Yes, prejudice. But my word, what some of you have told me that has happened to you in the past, I don't blame you for your distrust and rejections. Not at all. Not at all.

Nevertheless, I came only to LEARN. To hear your stories. To get to know more of you and understand better. Lucky for me, I've always been curious of others different from me.

My first best friend was a little Chinese girl whose dad worked for mine, who spoke no English, who was Buddhist. "Be her friend. Look out for her," my dad told me. So I did and am I glad I did.

Yu Si was a mime, funny, and never boring. I learned quickly that we had different faiths. I loved her parents - so gentle, always smiling, never loud and domineering like mine. Mr Yen was still a firm parent. If I made a mistake, he's smile, point his finger at me and say, "Bui dui!" (Not done this way.) No shaming, no scolding. But he was an atheist, I knew. His wife began visiting our church with the children, including Yu Si. They sat obediently, quietly. In not sure how much they heard.

But then one day, Yu Si and I came home from school, and my dad was home early. He had to break the news to my friend that her father, only 38 yrs old, had died of a massive heart attack. Her mom was with my mom at the funeral home.

Our church, naturally, wanted the funeral there. But Mrs Yen said that wasn't how they did things. They would have a Buddhist ceremony. A memorial. My parents supported her decision. And after the funeral, she took their children back home to China. Yu Si and I never saw each other again.

But one day, in children's choir, we sang something that reminded me of Yu Si and her family. I missed her father's gentle, strong ways. I could still recall the sound of his voice. I left the choir crying. The pastor came to see how I was. I told him how much I missed the Yens. How I worried about Mr Yen and his children.

"Well, you have to understand child, Mr Yen wasn't a Christian. So he's in he'll now. And that's where his family will go there too unless they become Christian."

His words were so cold. I told him that he didn't know Mr Yen at all, and what right did he have to say where Mr Yen was. I left him and waited outside in the parking lot for my mom. When she arrived, I told her, crying, what the pastor said. She told my dad when we got home and he was furious. Dad was never much of a believer either, and he told the pastor we were leaving the church. He never stepped foot in a church again. Mom took me to another church.

That episode in my life affected me profoundly. To this day, I believe no one can judge another person just based on what they believe. After all, you can't lie about your beliefs.

Its that spirit that led me here, not a desire to evangelize, to "save" anyone from hell. Although I remained in the church, I formed my own beliefs. I don't espouse the words of the apostle Paul or anyone else in the Bible, except for Jesus of Nazareth, who befriended the outcast, and condemned the "holy", who tells me to love my neighbor. And that's what I'm trying to do.

While here, I have never preached or debated my beliefs. I've never challenged anyone's views or told them they were stupid, or foolish, or evil for their beliefs. However, there have been some here that have said that to me, that say I'm crazy or unintelligent for being a deist. Yet, I can see why, based on what I've read - the bullying, the cruelty some of you have faced at the hands of their own family.

I, too, have lived these experiences of yours in other ways. My family and I grew farther apart, until I longed for a time when I could live by my own conscience, and not be forced to live by the conscience of others.

The only way anyone can change their beliefs is within themselves, but if you don't believe, you just don't. No one can "convert" another.

Still, there is so much divisiveness in our country now, I'd like more than anything to come together somehow because we're stronger together. There are so many other ways to connect other than religion. We all want the freedom to live as ourselves, to provide for our loved ones.

I'm not trying to change your beliefs, but am only here to learn, understand better and make friends. We don't have to have the same religion to be friends. If I make anyone uncomfortable, of course, I'll go. But, I like the time I've spent here, the people I've met, the topics discussed. Its very enlightening.

But I'll leave if its too uncomfortable for you.

wouldn't it be just magical if humankind could acknowledge the diversity in our unity? we may all be individuals, but also born the exact same way.

I don't think you should go. I think your reasoning for joining is admirable and I wish everyone had a mind as open as yours.
Your post reminded me of my own childhood. As a very young girl, I met many other children from different backgrounds and we all just played together. There was no judgment. We asked each other lots of silly kid questions about our differences, but none were meant to provoke. We were kids and learning about the world together. We were all friends and all of our parents encouraged us and supported each other.
I don't believe in God, but I believe in your right to believe.
Building bridges is a far more useful thing to do rather than blowing them up.

@walklightly it certainly would!

"You could say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

@Lewellyn3, "imagine", the first song i ever dared singing solo on stage 🙂

I'm glad you're here. The attitude you bring with you is welcome. It is the preaching and criticism and finger-pointing by theists we don't want, and you're not doing any of that.

Very good story. You appear to be representative of the theists on this site that are not an insidious blight on reason so I (and I would bet the vast majority of us in these pages) have no problem sharing this space with you.

Your story of the preacher telling ". . . So he's in hell now. . ." is one of many reasons I don't wish to share these pages with that (not you) ilk. I could fill a page with similar incidents of Catholic preachers and other religious god fearing people inflicting much fear and suffering on (the most common) devout Catholics that were divorced and married again without paying the church for a full annulment. I know of many theists that died in absolute fear of hell as their preacher and congregation have convinced them they are sinful and will burn in hell forever for not paying the church it's due homage.

Some theists on these pages attack reason and truth promoting their superstitious faith (belief without evidence) based nonsense over fact (supported by evidence). I've run across theists that "hate science" and have stated, "well, you will suffer because of your science" Those "believers/theists" are the ones I have issues with as they evoke in me a great deal of pity for their damaged reasoning ability (unable to accept reality over superstition). This profoundly diminishes any optimism I have for a positive (fact based decision for best outcome) future for our society.

Hope you find this a beneficial place.

2

I don't have an issue with it.
I mean better that they learn from us directly than make up what we are all about.

As long as they are here to learn more about why and what we believe I don't really have any problem with it. If they are coming to convert all us "sinners" then bad news for them as they probably have nothing to tell us we haven't already heard and rejected

1

I’m not sure I would be thrilled with too many theists on here, but I think it would be wrong to ban them. We can’t learn anything by creating an echo chamber here.

I don’t think this is an echo chamber. I do believe it is a respite.

3

I think it’s a trap, tbh, just more people probably getting ready to “convert” us since we OBVIOUSLY never heard their pitch.

They matter not to me. I am so sick of having people 'God Bless Me' all the time I could lose it.!

@rossit0725 well, yeahhh but THEY think they’re special, Jeebus told em so.

6

I'm not interested in religion. I certainly don't want intimacy with anyone who is. If I see religious people showing up on my feed, I'll just block them. If it gets to the point where there are tons of them, I'll just close my account.

NerdyB Level 4 June 25, 2018

🙂 i love that: i'm not interested in religion - it's exactly why i'm here. welcome.

I block most males because I'm not interested in intimacy with them, believers or Atheists, I'm here for love. ...not a 3 way with geebush geehobah ghosthole females

4

If they're going to come into a place like this and try to accost me, they'd best be prepared to get a double-earload of blasphemy. That, and I think if they honestly try to debate the topic with me, there's a much better chance that I'll de-convert them than them coming up with the necessary proof to convert me.

It wouldn't be very difficult for them to convert me to their religion - I have a couple amputees already picked out that they can make whole before my eyes, without knowing ahead of time who they are or what parts they are missing.

A faith healer tried to "cure" my tinnitus today, calling it: " demons of sound in his head lard..." no change in 46 years since US Navy FITRON 126 NAS MIRAMAR TopGUN noisiest place on earth 2000 touch&goes per day training pilots to qualify for carrier duty....jet blasts hit your skull worse than playing football helmet to helmet

6

Absolutely not. I live in the South right in the middle of the Bible Belt. Tired of fielding those conversations.

LouLou Level 4 June 26, 2018

Religion here in Atheistland IS TROLLING

Hallelujah lmao

Hard to take a walk without running into a church there. . even in dense forest/swamp. More churches than gas stations...on every corner.

6

No trolls please.

ronmon Level 3 June 27, 2018
7

They have enough places to join. Let them go to church.

9

The whole point of coming here is to get away from other forums where people with our views are quite often disrespected and sent biblical quotations. I never shrink away from debate, but you just can't have a rational debate with brainwashed people who dint have the capacity for critical thought. i say keep them away!

i agree - it's pretty much my reasoning too: how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?

@walklightly a baptist with 13 children invaded our Atheist group in Iowa 7 years ago and I played along with him for quite a while. ...nothing over 4 years ever fazed him. ....all the insanity in his bible would not shake his crucifixion thirst for grape juice&crackers on Sundays. ...not a bit of remorse threatening 13 children or me with eternal fire to my flesh nor the idiotic bribe fraud of heaven allegations. .....in his defense he was usually stone silent when I asked him direct yet leading questions as indicated SUPRA. ...never once did he express rage or resentment towards my American Atheist leadership in Iowa or South Carolina. ...talking to him is like talking to a pedophile in prison who won't give up his desire to rape girls QUID PRO QUO for parole. ....no surprise given he sired 13 kids no spontaneous abortions with the same woman....what WAS SURPRISING after the wife divorced him, an Atheist woman took him to bed frequently. ...thinking about those 2 always makes me limp

@GreenAtheist, that's the thing: i am not interested in religion. full stop. i'd never allow a delusionist to poison my immediate energy field in any way.

@Beach_slim, what are you trying to convey?

@Beach_slim, i'm talking about believers being rational about their imaginary friend - which obviously is an oxymoron.
btw, i claim nothing; i just state from my personal experience. no need - & no way! - to pick that apart.

@Beach_slim, i said:"how can i expect a delusionist to discuss anything rationally?", & i stand behind it. but hey, delude yourself, picking random words out of context, rejoicing in the attempt of finding fault in me. i'm plenty flawed, i can tell you that much. enjoy.

@Beach_slim what do you base that statement on?

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