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Fellow agnostics, how do you feel about believers joining?

This is likely contentious, but it needs to be asked. As this is a site "...promoting universal truths and peaceful life without religion" how do you feel about people of faith joining here?

I'm no shrinking violet and I don't need the sort of safe space that so many people believe they do now, but I also don't want to have to engage with people who have been inculcated into some form of unscientific, simple-minded view of the natural world.

I joined in the belief (cough) that this was an exclusive club where I could escape from these folk - but now I find they are joining - with a view to what, I don't know although my hackles are raised.

Not only is this sort of thing wasteful of resources, but if they are here to try to convert or preach at us, that's likely to result in a dissemination to all-out flame wars in a post or two.

I didn't think this was a site to convert people from one way of thinking to another (that sort of thing is nigh-on impossible by the time we're in our 20s anyway.)

I ask because I'm interested what my fellow angostic/athiests think.

I've noted that "theists" tend to butt in to these conversations with their ignorance and that's what I came here to avoid.

I'm getting too old to argue.

#agnostic #believer #belief #religion #truths #world #wars #faith #preach #butt
Draco 6 Sep 25
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583 comments (451 - 475)

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3

Level 8

I just joined this site a few days ago but as a long time atheist, I'm fine with theists joining as long as they understand their expressions of faith will not be treated respectfully. If they can handle having their fantasies challenged then I'm fine with their inclusion.

But it's doubtful I'll be polite about it.

I like how Dawkins puts it. People always have merit, but religion does not get a free pass. If ideas are weak and unsupportable they will be dismissed. Insistence on the ridiculous will get you banned.
5

Level 7

I’m a theist. A believer. I’m here to learn and expose myself to another point of view. I like it here. Ive had many wonderful conversations, some religious, some not.

I only interject my beliefs when I am specifically asked or when I feel like it’s pertinent to the topic being discussed, however never in a contentious or judge mental way. Simply to share my opinion.

I have no intention to try to “convert” anyone or insult or judge or be otherwise rude or inappropriate. This is not the place and I know that.

Then welcome. Knowing your viewpoint isn't as respected here as it is elsewhere... What, exactly, do you think you might learn? If I sound suspicious, it's because I am. I've seen a lot of underhanded ways of people trying to get into my head, so that they can learn how I think, why I think it. So they can then 'fix' me. If you are not one of those, you MAY actually learn something... That's up to you and you alone. There are a lot of teachers in our ranks, I promise you. However, the vast majority won't try to kill your faith. They won't respect it, but they won't come after you to kill it either. Some may be more militant... as I have noted elsewhere, we have been hunted and persecuted. When we find one place we don't have to pay lip service to the religious, we can be a bit jealous to protect it from those hunters. I get that. And I am what I would call a moderate. I don't care that you believe.I don't care WHAT you believe. You are free to be wrong. Just let me be 'wrong' too. Do not say it is because you love me. No you don't. You don't know me. (I do not men you in the personal, but in the general) That's your deal. Just leave me out of it, and we can agree to disagree. We can still agree to basics, like killing puppies is bad. Stealing is bad. Obeying stop signs good. That's how I live. Few people in my real life know I am an a-theist. I have to hide my real self. And I bet there are a LOT of butts in the pews on any given Sunday morning who are what I call Insurance believers... They don't, really, but say better safe than sorry. Like they could fool God? Really? But they do. They go through the motions... pretending. I won't. As a kid, I was taught that being an atheist was akin to devil worship. I was evil if I didn't toe the line, and the angry vengeful god would hurl me to hell. Even my father's Unitarian church didn't protect me completely from their barbs. So forgive... it's so christian, is it not? If we are a little suspicious of your motives. I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt. For now. If you really are here to learn, then you have doubts. You would HAVE to have... So, sarcastic as it must sound by now, welcome. You were warned! If we corrupt you... you were already broken.

Well, you seem respectful and open minded so I can say welcome, but I don’t believe there are many belivers who are like you. Thanks for breaking the stereotype.

Welcome. Years ago I (as a Christian) attended witchcraft cult meetings for months because I was curious. Met some really nice open people. Never became a witch but they earned my respect with openness and acceptance. Atheist now, still always curious.

Feel free to ask anything, I have no secrets.
4

Level 5

I agree 100% that I came here to get away from them, and I am too damn old to keep arguing with them. I threaten to attend church with them! Go to their church, sit right next to them! Obviously, that won't work online... But it can when it's in person. I'll say I will wear my Atheist hat too... (I don't actually have one. Yet) I have also noticed, that they often feel compelled to follow us, hunt us like the witches of Salem were, Track us down to confront us with their 'truths'... WHY? Why do they care? I think they must remove all doubters, so as to remove their own misgivings about the ridiculous nature of what they espouse. As long as we exist we can make them doubt, and they can't stand that. They HAVE to be right! Have to... or what have they been worshiping ? A silly fantasy story? That can't be. Religion is a powerful tool for controlling huge numbers of people with out firing a shot. If I had to think up a way of doing that job from scratch, I'd invent religion. Doubt, threatens that control. So the leaders say they "must go forth, convert the godless! Save them!" Oh Gwad.... save me from them.

4

Level 7

It's very simple if they become annoying block them if everyone blocks them they're gone

That's the best bet

6

Level 5

Why is it, that the religious never have to justify anything, it is only us who do? For them, acceptance is automatic. EXCEPT HERE. I've tried listening to their side, and found it wanting. I'll post about that another time. Those of us here, chose to be. Of that much I am sure. Now, if the religious choose to be here, by extension, they accept the 'rules', written or otherwise. If they come to argue or persuade or save, go away. I heard that already. If they come to learn, sure. Keep the BS to yourselves though, it's not going to be kindly met. Looking at a few of the comments should quickly remove any doubt about that. We have been persecuted and ridiculed no end... this is OUR forum. To speak freely, without judgment, or having to justify a damned thing. That's my take on it. I said a long time ago I won't attempt to take anyone's faith away, even if I could. They need to afford me the same respect.

2

Level 9

It depends. I have had intelligent conversations with more liberal believers. Historically, it was the liberal evangelicals who helped pull America put of the Great Depression. I am sure that most of the modrrn ilk would view them as heretics. In the same breath I faced off against a friend of a friend on FB. I don't accept people's judgements that I am going to hell. In this case because I defended the rights of my daughter and other women, and being accused of being a butcher and wanting to chop up his grandchildren. I always send those people to Mark 5, 1 to 7. Not a believer my self but willing to counter with their own arguments. I'm that section Mark warms hypocrites will be more harshly punished. I walked away from the argument when he proved his lack of Christian history by denying the idea of the trinity was voted upon. He said that was false and pointed to, I'll give him this credit, one of the biblical verses used by those who voted for it. So, where do I stand. If a person comes here, not to convert, but learn and question okay. Start preaching and no, need to be left behind (pun intended).

2

Level 6

Welcome one and all as far as I am concerned. I would think coming to a place where evidence is king would deter most, but some might want to see if we are plotting Armageddon. Others might want to explore doubt in a setting where they won't get preached at. As long as people are not jerks I would not vote to exclude anyone.

4

Level 7

No, no, no. It's bad enough I have them knocking on my door.

yes, i'm the same - it's like soiling our nest, i feel.
1

Level 4

Dialog between two people should always be by mutual consent. If and when that mutual consent exists, no third party should interfere to prevent it. That is the principle which should prevail here.

2

Level 4

Not an issue. Stay open minded.

2

Level 7

I have recommended to some Christian friends that they browse the postings here to get a less distorted view of atheism/agnosticism. For much of the Christian propaganda I have heard is that nonbelievers are those who have knowingly rejected the truth to become their own god in order to enjoy the short-range, sinful pleasures of earthly life. I feel they would be less obnoxious and argumentative if they had a less distorted view.

5

Level 6

I suppose it depends on the nature of your belief or theres. I believe in a God of some sort but have no need or interest in converting anyone. My belief is my own and has more to do with personal experience then anything else. I respect your right to doubt or question or even to not believe. I believe in ghosts also based on personal unprovable experience. I do not demand others believe or agree but I do have an expectation of respect for the fact that others have not lived my life, experienced my reality as it were. As for the debate center question would that not be a function of a group system? If someone wanted to open a group for such a debate would you find that objectionable? Of course I agree with the sentiment that of someone violates the rules of the site or the rules of a specific group or forum they should be censured. I would ask also is agnostic not itself a statement of doubt for either side of the equation the existence or not of any kind of higher power as it were? Is it not leaving open the debate, the question of the nature of existence and if there is cause or rational for the belief in something more then mundane existence?

Quarm Level 6 Aug 24, 2018
Reply

first of all, not knowing is not the same as doubting, thus the term agnostic has nothing to do with doubt or non-doubt. a-gnostic = not-knowing. secondly, as a non-believer i would not disrespect a forum for believers, the way you are doing here, joining & then starting to spout debasing asides like "mundane existence". may i suggest that you are very close to getting yourself onto thin ice, demanding a debate about the pros & cons into the belief in an imaginary friend that simply doesn't exist here. this community doesn't take kindly to folks trying to barge in & quasi take over in exactly the way christianity has been doing worldwide since eons. this is a community for reasonable, self-thinking, intelligent people, & out of this only comes respect. kindly refrain from promoting your delusions here, & take them somewhere else.

@walklightly I am not demanding anything. I have never and will never will base my idea of God on others participating. And really I have no interest in a fight. Do I know that some being exists that has some impact or influence in the universe? With 100% certainty no. Maybe it and the universe is all just a delusion of firing neurons and quantum entanglement. I know what I have experienced and I hold those experiences close whatever they may be for comfort, knowledge, growth. If I did start such a forum what would be the harm? I want to be crystal clear here I have no interest or need for any kind of support or justification for my beliefs I just find it interesting to discuss very nearly anything anywhere. Agnostic too me means you do not know one way or the other the answer to the question of the existence of "god". But at some level you consider it possible. As opposed to say Atheism. I think if there is some kind of power as it were out there then it is finite from its own perspective. Like magic which some define as simply technology or phenomena that is not yet understood. Too me that is logical. It gives people something to reach for. Would you agree that irrelevant to the question of God/god/Goddess etc. faith in the unknown has power? Faith in a nation, a creed etc. And within that is it more vital the result of ones actions rather then the reason? Many people of faith do great things and ascribe their success to said faith. In many cases faith in things not related to a religion or a god. I find it interesting you call delusional something you have no actual context for or experience with. Another persons experiences. And you speak of respect right before you insult me. I would ask any one else who reads this is there room on a Agnostic forum and group for questions about the existence and nature of the unknown? And just to be clear I am a Deist. Too me the real value of belief is in its positive power to create an impetuous for change. I like the idea of being(s) out there who hold knowledge we lack. I resist the idea that it is all just cold stars and dead worlds.

@Quarm, i am not interested in discussing your belief or your sense of feeling insulted here. the vain length of your reply just goes to show how desperately you are trying to convince me of a faith that has no base in the real world. do not insist on corresponding with me. btw, in your life stars may be cold & worlds dead; they aren't in mine.
8

Level 7

Lurking and learning is fine. Arguing and recruiting is not. I am surrounded by religious ignorance and intolerance daily and I was hoping for respite from it here.

The militant atheists are just as bad but they are what they are.

@GipsyOfNewSpain Militant anything is bad if you have a different viewpoint.

@DoctoralZombie Even with the same point of view... I just don't see the point of going around "badmouthing god, jesus, pope, religion, church, muhamed, islam, etc, etc, etc" on a 24/7 basis. My son once told me he couldn't understand how I did 20 years in the Military and I was the most anti military he knew. I simply told him... "It was My Job... Not My Life". So I was able to walk away upon retirement and enjoy life after without suffering the whidrawl that many ex military suffer once retirement comes. I didn't hangout on military bases after active duty. Did worked in one as a contractor. Did not visited a VA Hospital in 16 years... No Regrets of my time. I will do it again. Had a great time. But I am not Militant other than acknowledging that Life is for the Living and we most Live it Up. Enjoy Your TIme on Earth. Live Fully and Hearty. If you feel it is your call to be militant about anything do not stop from following your heart others may had a different point of view. But you already know that, Thanks.

@GipsyOfNewSpain, militant atheists accepted on agnostic.com, militant believers not invited, not welcome, not accepted here. simple.

@walklightly Okay.

militant theist "GAYS WILL BURN IN HELL FOREVER, THEY SHOULD BE KILLED, NO RIGHTS AT ALL" at the top of their lungs.

militant atheist "NO, YOU'RE WRONG, BECAUSE OF YOUR SUPERSTITION".

yeah, just as bad....

@HereticSin They can go join alterboysareyummy.com and fullquiverloves9yearoldgirls.org and leave me alone. I am not required to respect bad ideas. You however are free to if you like.
3

Level 8

I am more than willing to intelligently discuss any topic with anyone, including beliefs. If they start quoting scriptures from a book written by someone long dead, I quote scriptures from the holy BOBle.

11

Level 9

Oh for goodness sake, can these holy rollers not just fuck off to their churches and pray that we all burn in hell for eternity and then pat themselves on the back for their Xstian love and tolerance. They have the whole world as their playground that they can continue to make a mess of, leave us the fuck alone in our own space and we won't start breaking down the doors to their houses of mammon.

well said!

Yes, yes, and yes!

Yes !!
7

Level 7

Would you go on a vegan forum to talk about eating meat? Maybe you would. I know vegans who go on meat-eating forums to rant at the meat-eaters. ?

I do, too--and they're ALWAYS removed by either site management or members blocking them with GUSTO!

It’s why we have our own groups within the site.
8

Level 6

Hell no. They have so much of the world. They should keep out.

I totally agree ! what the hell! have they run out of fresh places to annoy people?
3

Level 7

I think maybe we should have jury system or something. If we started getting persistent trolls professing to try and convert us or something it could get quite obnoxious. A jury system with somewhat flexible rules would allow all view points to be discussed but could prevent certain religious crap from becoming a nuisance or worse.

4

Level 4

We have the home advantage! Logic will be our sheilds, evidence as our swords! And we will unite to change the world! Who knows maybe joining this site will be their conversion!

"converting" believers is an evil trap presuming Atheism is a religion equal to all the violent faiths of hell threats and heaven bribes.....In 38 years of American Atheist leadership I have never "converted" anyone nor should we.... to do so is cult activity telling believers what to think.... our Atheism is critical thinking in action... if a believer is afraid of their own thoughts imposed upon them by parents or cultists, we Atheists must teach the safety of thinking absent any fear BY EXAMPLE not by luring believers here or allowing their "witnessing" here in www.agnostic.com

and I have always refused to "debate" the irrational question "does gawd exist" yes gibberish exists but the various sounds gott gods YHWH are all referents without object... oxymorons.... ideas negating themselves.....to capitalize IN gawd WE TRUST is showing zero resistance to illegal theocracy....until believers show proof of exactly what and where their alleged deity is, I shall not enable their sounds they make as if something called deos exists

accordingly, Atheism is mis-defined by xian Webster and other dictionaries.... we have no theism.... period, we are free of such delusions.... disbelieving other's beliefs is oxymoronic and irrational.... Atheism is the examination of various religions and finding the 100% pattern of zero evidence for magic alleged miracles and alleged supernatural realms outside of the only knowable natural realm....I have no need to "believe in doors" because doors exist, I walk through doors... " belief in " is a non-sequitur ....I am not giving irrational rapist priests or any other violent believer a single nano space of tolerance for their evil faiths
4

Level 7

I don't mind if they join b/c they (1) have questions about their faith - perhaps they are almost about to get a clue or (2) they come here to have discussions in a respectful manner. If they come here to flame the boards, kick them - they would do the same to us if we went to a religious site and started spewing hateful things to them.

I think that there are a lot of religious people who use this site because they have real doubts about their beliefs. This site gives them a place to be able to question their beliefs in a respectful manner. It has helped me a lot. I have found that there are very few people trying to convert us to their religion.I wouldn't want to exclude them.

4

Level 1

Wouldn't bother me not in the slightest.

5

Level 7

No one would force me to read their posts, so it's fine with me....but I suspect they would have a missionary agenda....

i've been thinking about this attitude - of which i am "guilty" when it comes to politics - of turning away from harm or potential harm, & came to the conclusion that this is probably the reason why organised religion got away & is still getting away with the evil they inflict on humanity.

@walklightly I think you're right. Religion has ALWAYS been given ''a pass,'' because the GODLY scream like smashed cats if you so much as THINK a disrespectful thought...let alone utter one! So, because nobody wants to start World War 3, we just shrug our shoulders and let it go.

@LucyLoohoo, succinctly put ?
7

Level 3

I left an Alanon group, which had been actually very helpful, but for all their protestations about accepting me as a non-believer, it was clear that for them the only way to go was to believe in an anthropormophic higher power - and it was also clear that they would keep pushing that idea - should a believer want to join this group it would need to be made very clear that pushing their deity is unacceptable

believers are already here and some are trying to get my account deleted .... making nice with the hell threat and heave bribe crowd is a big mistake ADMINs.....I have not read a single believer posting they are asking for help to rid themselves of fearsome faiths.... being enabled here in faux tolerance is letting the rapist priests and two felony popes run free when every faith victim should be getting our help, not acquiesence with the perpetrators cover story of holiness

I have gone to NA and AA for 3 years now. The groups have helped me a lot. But I had already reached a point in my life where Their belief in a higher power didn't bother me at all. But neither group is push or preaching. I do know that some people left other groups because of pushing the god thing. I think it depends on where someone is at in their life.

I had this problem with adoption support groups for parents. I sought out other parents who had adopted and faith is just eye-ball DEEP in that community. Fortunately, I was more ignored than anything so I just stopped participating.

6

Level 4

I have to wonder why and hope it is not to try to convert us. ?

How can one convert someone who doesn't know anything (agnostic) and is happy in their ignorance?

@rock9361 Well...did you INTEND that comment to be rude? Or was it an accident? Atheists and agnostics are the most intelligent people I know...much more, in fact, than any ''believer" I know.

@rock9361. Lmao.. Oh here we go.. See now this could get interesting.. Oh boy.. rubbing hands together.. Ok.. Does it REALLY make us "ignorant", to KNOW that we are ignorant and so in taking the blinders off, to open ours eyes and our minds to always seek KNOWledge and a higher level of understanding in our OWN minds.. Or does it make YOU more ignorant to just believe in SOMEBODY ELSES TRUTH, which is probably NOT TRUTH AT ALL, which TRULY LEAVES YOU UNKNOWING.. Which is true epitome of IGNORANCE.. So see.. Lmao

My feeling about believers is akin to multiple personalities. ...they are prone to hatred bigotry and violence if they hear or read some of our goring their sacred cows.....no matter how much they claim to be open minded or live&let live our Atheist phraseology or memes are bound to make them feel offended or condescendingly put down. ...like children feeling lied to about Santa Claus

5

Level 5

I think this is a good site for believers to read and understand where we non believers are coming from. And it helps many believers by letting them know it is ok to question their beliefs. I keep an open mind on these things.

If that is why they are here, yes.
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