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How do you deal with unwanted advances?

If this photo doesn't encapsulate the "Me, Too" movement, I don't know what does.

At age 25, I directed programs for 2,000 disabled people at the Tacoma YMCA. Recruited and trained 300 volunteers needed each week. We had Multiple Sclerosis (MS) patients getting physical therapy in the cold pool. Arthritis patients had therapy in the hot whirlpool. And 1,600 disabled schoolchildren had weekly swimming lessons in the big pool

At the Univ. of Puget Sound, I arranged college credit for physical therapy students to give therapy in the pools with supervision.

I just got out of the pool after teaching adorable deaf preschoolers to swim. For modesty in a wet swimsuit, I pulled on running shorts and draped a towel over my chest. Look at my eyes.

The large man looming over me was the son of a wheelchair-bound woman with MS who was receiving therapy. His eyes constantly followed me. For heaven's sake, I was working!

Since age 15 when I developed breasts, men have grabbed me, kissed me against my will, stalked, tried to rape me, propositioned me, sexually assaulted and catcalled.

It's scary.

LiterateHiker 9 Oct 28
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26 comments

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8

I don’t know if it’s because I live in the UK, but I can honestly say that I have never experienced any behaviour like this harassment you describe. Yes...I got unwanted advances, yes I got wolf whistles, yes I got lewd comments about my anatomy, even the odd persistent hand on the knee, but I was able to deal with them all with a good put down in old fashioned Anglo Saxon or a slap in the case of the wandering hands. I can’t say that I ever felt out of my depth or in danger in any of these situations, but that in no way means I’m making light of how other women feel. I have always been a very confident and self assured person, perhaps men knew not to mess with me!

@Marionville

"You look like a victim," Stuart said in January 2019. I met him through Fitness Singles.

"I don't feel like a victim!" I protested. "I walk fast with good posture, head up, shoulders back, scanning around, and never look in my purse or at my phone while walking."

"Because you are thin, you look easy to grab," he replied.

This chilled me to my soul.

@LiterateHiker How did you respond to that?

@Marionville

Didn't you read my response? Also, I told Stuart I don't want to see him again.

@LiterateHiker No...I didn’t see a response to “because you are thin, you look easy to grab”. Of course you told him you didn’t want to see him again, you were chilled to the soul you said...not conducive to making another date! I was just interested to hear what your reply was to his remark.

@Marionville

This is what I wrote. I replied:

""I don't feel like a victim!" I protested. "I walk fast with good posture, head up, shoulders back, scanning around, and never look in my purse or at my phone while walking."

@LiterateHiker j. Yes...I got that...I wanted to know how you responded to him when he said to you “because you are thin, you look easy to grab”.

@Marionville

"That chills me to my core. What a terrible thing to say."

@LiterateHiker Yes I understand that it, would chill anyone, but did you not say anything to him after he made that appallingly sinister remark?

@Marionville

"You look easy to grab," he said.

"That chills me to my core. What a terrible thing to say!"

@LiterateHiker I get it...that’s what you said to him.....sorry Kathleen I think I’m slow on the uptake tonight because I’ve got a bit of temperature, and I’ve been doctoring myself with paracetamol and a hot whiskey amongst other things! Off to bed now.

The problem is these perps will often target minors or young women (or those they deem young women or underage) and at those ages, especially the teen years, not many of us have reached the confident and self-assured stage.... and when you are victimized by a guy at a young age, it stays with you for years and years and takes even longer to develop that self-assurance and confidence. :/

@LiterateHiker There is actually psychological cases of former victims intentionally gaining weight to try and prevent further/future victimization in hopes of making themselves unattractive to men. :/

@demifeministgal

True. My old friend, Kathy, says she became obese to repel men.

@demifeministgal I understand that...however I was talking from a personal perspective. I acknowledge that everyone is not as confident as me, but I was once young too, and as I’m old now, it was when I was a younger woman than I was referencing regarding this situation, when you get to my age it’s unlikely that you’ll be the target of men’s unwanted attention, unless they’re after your money!

@Marionville yes many old(er) ladies tell me this and it is why physically ageing does not scare me because I welcome this supposed invisibility I will gain... not that I am even street harassed that often to begin with (due to clothing choices) but the seldom times it does happen is enough for my anxiety to go off. 😟 I wonder if neurotypical people handle street harassment and intimidating men better than neurodiverse people >.>

@demifeministgal I should imagine that could be the case....self esteem and confidence play a large part in how we react to intimidating behaviour in men. Predatory males can probably sense insecurities and vulnerability in women making them easy targets. There are certain men who actually like a challenge and prefer to target stronger, less vulnerable women, a lot depends on the predator too.

@LiterateHiker Your friend is a liar! 😅

You've also been lucky. Luck has a lot to do with it. This is not to demean your own skill at fending someone off, but even the most self-assured, assertive women can end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

@Atheist3

Why did you say my friend is a liar? You don't know her.

@MsMagoo I recognise that...but was only talking about my own personal experience, which luckily didn’t include any really nasty situations.

@LiterateHiker Because it sounds like a rationalization. A defensive coping mechanism to protect one's self esteem.

@Atheist3

What sounds like a rationalization and defensive mechanism?

@LiterateHiker The statement, "I'm obese because I fon"t want to be hit on by men". It provides justification for one"s inability to control one's unhealthy physical condition. Hey, if someone is happy being overweight, that's a different question. I've never met an obese person like that tho. They're just resigned to their current condition. Hence, they have to rationalize.

7

My Apologies for all Cavemen of the World. It will Never, Ever be Your Fault or that You Asked for It.

6

Why all women need to take a self defense course - or several. Carry pepper or wasp spray. For some - a knife or gun helps them feel ok - though unless you're willing and able to use such things , they're pointless. As my defense instructor taught us - when someone touches you - they've crossed the line, and it's time to go ballistic ! Scream, yell, get crazy ! If someone tries to carry you off , or push you somewhere - go limp, collapse. If you've ever tired to move an unconscious person - you'd know how effective that can be. Then - you use the strongest muscles in your legs to go bonkers !

As for me, I've never had a problem using words. First, I'm civil. If that doesn't do it, I get angry. And finally I have gotten physical. As a man's hand slid up the back of my thigh, while in a crowd, I grabbed the offending hand, and bent one of his fingers back - just short of breaking it. He got the message.

Another man was trying to get his hand between my legs on a very crowded subway. We were both pressed tightly against one of the floor to ceiling grab poles. It was nearly impossible to move away. I said nothing - but carefully studied the arms of all the people holding on, then tried to connect visually to their feet. At last I had the right one ( I hoped). I was wearing high heels. I discreetly looked down, aimed a heel over the target instep, and jabbed my weight into it - hard. I felt the hand jerk back, and watched his face twitch as I drilled into his foot. Neither of us said a word, and no one else was aware of the drama in front of them. Ha !

All this said - I can handle people looking - faces can be made back, and things can be said then too. Even funny stuff that defuses the whole thing.

6

This is a direct result of religious practice to devalue the female. Parents must teach their little boys to respect little girls. Hopefully the age of Weinstein, Cosby and Lauer is over, but with a sickening example pooping in the White House, there is a way yet to go.

GROG Level 6 Oct 28, 2019
4

Yes, it is scary. I have been attacked, pawed, had men back me into walls, hover, leer, and generally just invade my space. I was easily intimidated when I was younger, but having run out of patience and fucks, I deal with it a whole lot differently now. Make eye contact and always carry a sharp pencil.

Deb57 Level 8 Oct 28, 2019

@deb57 that is terribly depressing..

Based upon what I have seen and heard, most women just go through life expecting this kind of abuse to come from somewhere, at some time or another. Unlike men, we are never allowed to forget that being alone means potential danger; darkness means potential danger; outside means potential danger; abandoned hallways, alcoves, elevators, recessed areas, and wide open spaces all mean potential danger. We have to constantly work hard at not being prey.

4

There are some things that can be done to lessen it. For one, don't do it, and teach your children properly. Let the sons know it is not OK, and let the daughters know not to tolerate it.

Raised awareness helps also, as the #metoo movement would not have been as successful even 10 years ago. As someone who has held executive roles, it was kind of easy to avoid recurrence. I fired the perpetrators.

3

You may want to wear an engagement ring....

@BestWithoutGods

That would never work.

"You look like a victim," Stuart said in January 2019. I met him through Fitness Singles.

"I don't feel like a victim!" I protested. "I walk fast with good posture, head up, shoulders back, scanning around, and never look in my purse or at my phone while walking."

"Because you are thin, you look easy to grab," he replied.

This chilled me to my soul.

@LiterateHiker It works for me. If ever anyone shows interest in me, I point to my wedding ring and tell them that I am a faithful husband.

Perhaps you can just tell people that you're not available. You don't have to be engaged or married, just take yourself off the market.

@LiterateHiker there is nothing a woman can do to discourage the initial advance. the initial advance has nothing to do with logic -- oh, she's engaged, leave her alone -- because it has more to do with power than love or sex anyway. but there is a lot a woman can do to discourage or even injure someone who does make an unwanted advance (i don't mean we should injure someone who comes up and says "hey babe" but things can escalate!) one thing is to have a nice loud voice and say NO! GET LOST! within earshot of other people. another is to have a knee handy and well aimed. if the latter is not yet warranted, i have a good line i devised long ago which might sound threatening enough: "you take your hands off me or i'll take your hands off you." try to look as if you're able to follow through on that. even better, BE able to follow through on that. but the sad truth is, it shouldn't be the woman's responsibility to prevent advances and attacks. it should be the man's responsibility not to be an attacker. remember, the police are out there too. call them. file a complaint. don't make excuses for jerks. oh, and being grabbed is not an advance. it's an assault. "wanna go out?" and grope grope grope are not of equal seriousness.

g

@BestWithoutGods

Rape is a crime of power, not sex.

Psychologists have found that the motivation behind sexual assault is most often the need to dominate and control, rather than the inability to control sexual urges.

@LiterateHiker Okay, my suggestion has limited usefulness. You also need self-defense, and yell loud enough to bring others to your defense. And you need the wisdom to not get into a position where evil men can take advantage of you. There are many approaches. Mine may be one of the weaker ones. Sorry! 😟

That’s what I do!

@BestWithoutGods If only it were so easy to spot said evil men. "where evil men can take advantage of you". If they had a tattoo stamped on to their heads it would help. So we just need to be vigilant with all strange men until they show us they can be trusted. :/

It has been my experience that rapists don't care if their victim is engaged.

3

Depends how aggressive the socially awkward perp/perv is. Fondled in movie theaters at 7 years old to being attacked from behind around my neck as my feet left the ground, to overly zealous alcohol infused exuberance by co workers also lifted me against my will. Why am I not social? Rhetorical. Even here Fathercat pursued me through other sites trying to access a photo or address or something else. I have dogs, self defence training, & I am hypervigilant. My dad taught me to punch first & then apologize. "You're a girl. They will give you a pass." He witnessed the rapes in France by the YANKS as they had this idea that French women were....."willing" (?). De Gaulle had to approach Eisenhower on this mayhem. Where is that history.Thusly I no longer put myself in situations that require me to interact with men. I am uncomfortable when service MEN arrive. We need more women in every capacity as the men have done a poor job these last monotheist centuries. Take back the night. Sisterhood is powerful. Here me roar in numbers too big to ignore. I am anti patriarchy......Not anti men. Viva bonobos, hyenas,mole rats, bees, ants. DNA discovered by a woman. Her Nobel Peace Prize stolen by 2 men.Where is that history? Rhetorical. Unexpressed pain becomes rage. So.......... VOTE 2020. VOTE!

3

This is obviously directed at woman as I, personally, have never experienced an unwanted advance from a woman.☺️🥴🤡

You haven't?

@Garbonza

Not "unwanted".......

When I was married I would say "I'm married". If that did not work it was time to "embellish"..... "My wife is pregnant again". Still not enough.... "This will be our 9th, do you like kids?".... That always cleared the space....

@moosepucky So you were advanced on, then had to give an excuse to escape the unwanted advance. Not uncommon for men, I think.

@Garbonza when unattached or for the 8 years I was in a polyamorous relationship, there was no such thing as "unwanted attention". I was frightened on more than one occasion and wondered "what have I done now", but even that was not "unwanted". Out of my control, yes, but still not something I would consider unwanted.

@moosepucky That's the difference in semantics between men and women, plus the gap in "adventurousness" between the sexes -- on average. I don't believe there are any typical cases. Women are more frightened, and obviously for good reason, but all men end up getting labeled because of what I'm guessing is a tiny minority.

2

Tell them you're an ardent NRA member and you'd love an excuse to try out your newest derringer.

or, "Fuck off or I'll start screaming." then take your chair somewhere else, and report the pervert. It's the YMCA and you shouldn't have to put up with that if you are paying their excessive dues. Having a robe may be better than jogging shorts. You shouldn't have to, but it's that or a sidearm if you really need to improve your safety.

A YMCA is likely to have a higher share of sexually deprived/depraved men; Christian attitudes foster sexual extremes (aggressiveness on account of hating and devaluing women, excessive female submissiveness and its corollary, misandry, and a really long list of other perversions).

Think where you are: YMCA is a corporate embodiment of a wacko cult. I remember how they used to require members to sign cards swearing allegiance to Jesus Christ, regardless of their actual faith. And I'm sure it was even worse it earlier times, simply excluding non-Whites and Jews.

@racocn8

The YMCA is not a wacko cult. I worked as a YMCA executive director and program director for over eight years in Seattle and Tacoma, WA.

As a volunteer, I raised money for youth scholarships for low income children for the Wenatchee Valley YMCA, WA.

@LiterateHiker The YMCA is aligned with Christianity, which is a wacko cult, albeit a big one. The YMCA is a mere extension; it is content with keeping the name, Young Men's Christian Association, none of which remains valid, except the bias towards Christianity. Christianity is anti-Truth, anti-reality and anti-sanity, put they're Pro-life, and apparently that's all that matters.

@racocn8

You are talking about long ago. When I worked for the YMCA in the 1970s and 1980s, the YMCA was non-denominational. No chapel or no prayer sessions. Everyone was welcome.

"We're in the people business: all the people" was the YMCA motto.

2

You certainly provide clear evidence of your life challenges. I truly hope that the wounds are not disabling . In following your posts it does provide clarity on your intolerance for bullshit.

@Bigwavedave

I have some PTSD as a result.

@LiterateHiker I also think I do. But from different provocations. I don't know what to say but we carry on. You certainly are no push over.

2

I get some unwanted advances at work from service users - they don't have the cognitive awareness not to do it, so I have to follow rules of escape and report it.
As for non-work, I haven't had such an approach, but then I'm a man, it is a fear I have for my daughter though. How would she deal with it?

2

At the wokplace, with HR. In the streets, kick the dude in the nuts.

@Mofo1953

At the Tacoma YMCA, my supervisor, Frank, threatened to kill me if I told anyone he pressured me for sex. Thank goodness I came from a large family of tattletales.

I told the Executive Director. Will always feel grateful that he believed me. He stopped Frank supervising me. The Executive Director took over supervising me himself.

Three years after I started the adapted aquatics programs, the National YMCA honored us as a model program. The National YMCA flew executive directors from around America to see what we were doing for disabled people in our pools.

In 1978, the Tacoma YMCA had no human resources manager.

Sometimes just rejecting a guy street harassing us or trying to date us can get us stalked, assaulted and/or killed... and you never know which guy is capable of any of the above so we err on the side of caution until we are acting in self-defense.

2

Men have toxic masculinity for sure. Less talked about is sexual harassment by women. I was a victim in my early career, working for female bosses who, in a position of authority, holding my employment in their grasp, sexually harassed me in humiliating ways. One would call me into her office to rearrange her office furniture or move wall hangings and make suggestive comments on my clothes and physique. Another literally cornered me in her office and put her hands all over me. And there’s more. They leered. They talked about the precariousness of my employment. They were abusive, inscrutable. There were other times and other women. These are just two of the more notable and difficult women by whom I’ve been harassed.

@Allamanda Maybe a poor choice of word. My point is sexual harassment by women towards men is real and is virtually never talked about. In fact men to whom I’ve told my stories sounded envious...think about it...

@Allamanda I’m not comparing.

Allamanda: Are there any statistics on how many men get pregnant from a female sexual assault? Or even, how many women get pregnant from assaulting a male?

Do you and other men bring up these topics of your own harassment? I mean if it is not talked about often enough, is it not up to men to start creating spaces and platforms to talk about it?

Was there ever any point when you were being harassed by a woman that you feared that you might not have the necessary physical strength to protect yourself if she became aggressive or violent?

@demifeministgal See my response above. When I bring it up with other men they’re envious, as if I should be flattered. Or they make jokes.

@Deb57 No, and the harassment never got to the point where I had to physically fend off the advances, and for that I’m grateful. When I was cornered in my boss’s office I feared if I fought back or hit or hurt her I would be the one blamed and would lose my job and/or be accused/arrested for physical or sexual assault. I understand well that is not the same as being physically vulnerable due to the size and strength differential. Harassment of men by women is usually about the power differential, not physical.

@Bobbyzen harassment of women by men is about both.

@Deb57 I fully understand. My comment was not meant to diminish harassment of women by men, nor to compare the two. I’m just saying harassment of men by women exists and I gave two personal examples, one where physical groping occurred and I felt helpless to do anything about it for fear of losing my job or being arrested for assault.

1

So called society is gonna try to tell you and other women its your own fault. But that is bullshit. It was/is NEVER your fault. Nor any other womans fault either.

1

Take some martial arts classes. It depends on what style you choose but they teach some good philosophies and are great exercise too... Show them that dynamite comes in small packages.
I tell my unwanted advances that I don't have any spare change and they usually just go away.

@gemini1947

Good idea. I need to call the Wenatchee Police and ask them to recommend a personal defense class for women.

1

This is a sad thread

twill Level 7 Oct 29, 2019
1

Oh, and before I forget: I have never received an advance, wanted or unwanted. So, unlike astrophysics, I have no context in which to process this.

1

You have clearly suffered for a long time. I'm beginning to understand how you found comfort in your semi-solitary, very personal, in-touch-with-nature pastime. I wish there was something I could do to help. That is, other than listening and carrying the message.

@BitFlipper

Thank you for your kind and insightful reply.

1

Can also say my boyfriend is a military combat vet and jealous

bobwjr Level 10 Oct 29, 2019
1

Intimidating to say the least wrong in so many ways, learn some advanced self defense like we did in the military. Pepper spray, pocket knife with instruction. Message me will give you details if you want. My family is very opposed to hurting women,it's in our DNA anything else I can do let me know

bobwjr Level 10 Oct 29, 2019
1

Look at the size difference of the two bodies in the picture. Look at the expression on his face. He is getting off on intimidating her. What a POS.

Deb57 Level 8 Oct 29, 2019

@Deb57

Good point.

In parking lots, I avoid parking next to a van. Men could easily pick me up and throw me into a van, never to be seen again.

1

The grass is always greener.

Over the septic tank.

1

You're going to take this as cliche, but as a man I have to say that men are (for lack of a better term) uncouth, morons when they do shit like this.

1

I think everyone wants the end results to find a partner but unfortuneatly mothers and fathers do not instruct there children it the right way to go about it and leave everyone on there own to figure it out ,lot of peer pressure at times for males which is totally wrong ,since parents will not do it these days they leave it up to trial and error experience ,Schools need on class that deals with life for the whole year ,relationships ,right and wrongs for how to treat the opposite sex,how to bank ,how to do a lot of the fundamentals are generation take for granted as we had no choice but to learn ,I think everyman has done something wrong in this respect most likely not even knowing or thinking about how the other person is going to feel,until years later it catches up to them of how stupid they were,,Sorry to all you ladies who have had to go thru this or endure,,but i know first hand about the awkwardness when one gets an unwanted advance ment,When i was in Real estate use to get that all the time from women ,not complaining,nice to be wanted but one has to be so careful,never let myself get into a set up situation,,my team of my self and two ladies,,if we felt something ajar one of us would accompany for protection ,,well thats my 3 cents for now,,lot of interesting insights here

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