We don't have a word for non-believers of Santa Claus or non-believers of The Tooth Fairy, yet we live in a world where those who don't believe in God(s) or supernatural religious philosophies are labelled Atheists. I think that the state of non-believing is the normal state of things as it doesn't need to be taught, unlike religions. I am consequently uncomfortable with using the word and I feel that I concede grounds to their insanity when I use it. What are your thoughts?
Well, when atheist is the name for someone that believes there is no god (there is no proof of a god, just as there is no proof of the fact that there isn't, that's why the term "agnostic" is preferable to me), someone that doesn't believe in Santa Claus should be called an asanta and for the tooth fairy it's also simple athoothfairy. The thin is that there are only a few adults that still believe that Santa and the Tooth Fairy are real. So, if 99.9% of a population is not believing in either, you can't call it a group that should be separated. In that case you better point it out as now happens, "my children still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy". Way easier.
Agnostic is something we all need to embrace, as scientist do. It means "I don't know." But, meantime ....
@GoldenMean Sure, I know .
Hate it!
@witchymom Because everyone that is religious instantly makes presumptions which are predominatly false! I prefer terms which open the mind to questions instead of instant judgment.
Not that comfortable - conjures up images of that dreadful Dawkins fellow and his followers' ironically dogmatic approach generally.
Obviously, you are not an atheist, so I can see why you wouldn't be comfortable. & Dawkins doesn't have "followers". He's a science writer, primarily on evolution, (& a damn good one!) that also happens to speak on subjects regarding religion, atheism & belief in general, & is damn good at that, too! Nothing he states is "dogma", & I disagree with him on occaision, just as I have my differences with Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, Krauss, et al. Atheism has no dogma, it is a simple statement on non-belief, usually on the grounds of lack of proof. Just out of curiosity, are you here just to troll? Fine with me if you can bring actual evidence or arguments with you.
Began your screed with a strawman then got less interesting. Q, where do mansplainers get their water? A, from a well actually
There are many definitions of "atheism" and "agnosticism." Some are, perhaps, useful in detailed philosophical discussions; others are more useful in everyday conversations. Those are the ones I'm going to discuss here.
Most people, when they talk about "atheists," mean "people who don't believe in gods." Again, in a philosophical or theological discussion, it might be useful to make a distinction between people who think gods are theoretically possible but not likely to exist in reality and others who believe they can't possible exist. But the end result is the same: there are people who—for whatever reason—disbelieve in gods.
That is, their mental model of the universe doesn't include gods in it. To them, "Do gods exist?" is a closed question. It's either closed because they think it's impossible or closed because they have no more reason to believe in gods than they do to believe in elves. You may think they're wrong. Maybe you think gods are more likely than elves. But that is what they believe. In any case, the point is that these folks (and I'm one of them) don't actively ask the question "Do gods exist?" They already have an answer. (As do theists: in their case, the opposite answer.)
Most people, when they talk about "agnostics," mean either "people who are unsure whether or not gods exist" or "people who think it's pointless to claim that gods exist and equally pointless to claim that they don't, because the question can never be answered." In either case, these are people who, when asked whether or not they believe gods exist, say, "I don't know," whereas atheists say, "No." That's a clear difference.
There are people who really do believe in gods.
There are people who really don't believe in gods.
There are people who really have no belief either way.
All of those types of people actually exist, and it's useful to have labels for them. If we call the first type "theists", the second type "atheists," and the third type "agnostics," a member of the last group would simply be descriptive if he called himself "agnostic." He wouldn't be "without balls." He would be a person accurately describing his beliefs.
It's possibly easier to see this if we take gods out of the picture and use an analogy: ESP. There are people who really, truly believe ESP exists. There are people who really, truly don't believe it exists. And there are people who are really, truly unsure.
I'd like to end by dispelling two myths: The first is that belief is a choice. I suspect it is—or partly is—for some people, but it isn't for all people. I know, because it's not a choice for me. Yet some folks seem to have this idea that we're presented with three options—theism, agnosticism, and atheism—and that anyone who picks the middle one is weak willed.
But if I tell you I don't know who is going to win next year's Superbowl, I'm not weak willed: I'm simply telling you the truth. I don't know. I can't screw up my courage and make myself know. It's not a choice for me. If you offer me five thousand dollars to make myself believe some team is going to win, I'll have to either lie or let you keep your money. (Which sucks, because I could use it!)
A true agnostic could also lie. He could say he's a believer or non-believer. He could go to church and behave like a believer. Or he could ... I don't know ... read "The God Delusion" and tell everyone he doesn't believe in gods. But if the truth is that he doesn't know whether or not gods exist (or if he believes it's impossible to know), this would all be a sham. The truth is, he's agnostic.
(The middle-man always seems to have trouble. Bisexual people get pressured into calling themselves gay or straight. But the actual truth—regardless of what they call themselves—is that they're attracted to both men and women.
Sometimes the pressure is political. When people claim agnostics lack balls, I wonder if they mean, "Look, I don't care what you actually believe, but pick a side! There's a war on, and we need to know if you're for us or against us!" )
The second myth is that everyone has a belief. I've been surprised by this many times:
Someone: Do you believe we'll discover there was once life on Mars?
Me: I don't know.
Someone: No, you don't understand. I know you can't know for sure what's going to happen in the future. I'm asking what you believe?
Me: As I said, I don't know. I really don't.
Someone: Look, I'm not asking what you can prove. I just want to know what you believe!
Me: I don't have a belief! That's why I keep saying, "I don't know." I don't know means I don't know. And I really don't know.
Someone: Argh!
It seems that there's one sort of mind—the kind "Someone" has in the above dialogue—that pretty much always forms a belief. That doesn't mean the believer is sure. He may readily admit that his belief is just a hunch. Still, his belief exists. He's leaning towards a particular hypothesis. For him, it's impossible to not doing that. So he can't understand the way my mind works. I have trouble understanding his mindset, too, but I've encountered it often enough to be familiar with it.
If you want to know which type of mind you have, try the following thought experiment: Tomorrow, I'm going to flip a coin. Do you believe it will land as heads or tails? I realize you can't know, but what do you believe? (You can interpret "believe" any way you want: having a hunch, visualizing an outcome, knowing, feeling certain, giving it your best guess...)
As you might suspect, given how I described my mind, I have no belief about the coin's fate. None. Nada. Zilch. If agnosticism was about coin flips instead of gods, I would be an agnostic, and it wouldn't be because I don't have the balls to "chose" atheism or admit that I'm an atheist.
Very good rant, JohnSmith. Agree.
In the UK we still find it odd that one should fear be 'outed' as an atheist - I wear it like a badge. or does religion have a stranglehold on the US?
Parts of USA and especially in small cities and towns, yes religion has a stranglehold on people. When I became adult, I fled to the nearest big city to get away from all the mean spirited, abusive religious people. Southeast part of USA - very bad unless you live in the large cities. Even then, you get aggressive fundies who sometimes make you miserable.
Thank you for the question I think it's a good question. Personally I can say that I definitely don't fear the word atheism or atheist however to be an atheist, and I can't believe I'm actually saying this at this point in my life, also requires faith probably the same amount of faith that believing in God requires. Having said that I personally I'm not comfortable with labeling myself atheist. Because neither party has any proof one way or the other which is why it's more accurate to label oneself as agnostic.
I beg to differ; you don't need proof to be an atheist. The word itself means someone who doesn't believe in a god; from American Atheists: Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods. It is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about a person.
I don't like labels of any kind. They isolate a group of people and lump them all into one easily digested category to which attributes can be assigned. Also, atheist is an absolute term and if I've learned anything in this lifetime, it's keep your mind open and your beliefs flexible.
Only lazy thinkers group and digest. We should encourage this generation to pay attention and think, search, discern.
The reason there has to be a word for us that have no belief in the gods, is that the majority of this country is batshit crazy when it comes to god belief. They want to enact laws from their religion, and deny science and reason because it contradicts their fairy tales. If it was an innocent delusion like a belief in ghosts, there would be no reason to make a stand against it.
I think the escapism is what the story is in aid of and the innocent delusion you mention would take centre stage and become the proud successor of the god story, peopel will always want to escape their reality and the promise of heaven would be perfect for the ghost god ;actually isnt there already a holy ghost
Im nothing. Any time talk of wizards and umber hulks comes up, I clam up. People "believe" all sorts of crazy, subjective stuff and metaphysical unprovables, and Carl Sagan taught me from 10 years old to value facts and the truth.
This is not to say that the core of faith and the works of faith have no value, this position is absurd. Our human cultures have been shaped by these myths for good or ill, they are our past, but they should not dominate the future and wont.
For me, im not a joiner. I don't like labels. Ive atheist hissed at me like "arsonist!" or "abortionist!" people are too fucking crazy about this. I don't like that people wear black shirts with a red a like its a crime. I don't like people that say they are "militant atheists" and there is no militancy. I don't like that atheists get together at atheist church on Sunday and sing, because they need to belong. I don't like atheists that attack people and call them stupid (even kids!) instead of showing them whats up. I sure as hell didnt like that sexist display during "elevatorgate" no matter what happened. I make the mistake of thinking that atheist people are all woke and beyond that sort of thing.
I avoid saying it or using it for these reasons. I avoid being group associated and labelled.
So this!
I wish I felt safe coming out as atheist in my community. It's not so much physical safety as it is job security and keeping a social group- which it seems I've never really had both
I understand that and maybe you can find ways to square that circle. I made a pact with myself a long time ago that I would never lie to myself but would lie to others if necessary to protect my self.
I would prefer being called "atheist" rather than a non-believer or any such wishy washy term. The term atheist is more in your face.
I believe most believers know well that a lot of what they usually say they believe(possibly because their community believes it) is non sense and the very presence of "people who are aware of your nakedness" makes them insecure. I would like my very presence to be felt as something that discourages belief in ridiculous things, something the term "atheist" ensures.
yes its real and it stops most people from answering I do only use it as a last resort though
I am much more comfortable with it than the people who I tell it to. Some are schocked others say I will pray for you some actually accept it. At times it generates discussion which have been very entertaining. Many times I am able quite quickly to place a logical question that befuddles them and normally end sthe conversation.
Yes, conversations about God on the spot are fun! I used to avoid them out of frustration but I grown quite used to it by now.
I never identified as athiest until I moved south. I am just nothing. I don't collect stamps, but don't consider myself a non - stamp Collector
I will not identify as anything but as an atheist. Pagan, agnostic, non believers etc.. all of these terms aren’t quite descriptive enough as to the fact that I do not believe in a god and or gods. The term atheist makes me feel confident, which is important when dealing with the believers and is also a simple explanation. People hear “atheist” and feel as if we have these crazy beliefs, when we have the most simple explanation for them.
I will add qualifiers if needed. I'm an agnostic atheist. A Humanist. A skeptic. A freethinker. & the beat goes on, depending on the context & need for explanation.
I feel like the main difference is the societal expectations regarding the subject at hand. If I don't tell you I don't believe in Santa as an adult, you already assume I don't. Same goes with the Tooth Fairy, or any other such make-believe creature or story. However, staying silent on your beliefs creates a different narrative altogether. The norm is to be religious, even if just barely so. To claim you're an atheist sets you apart from the "neutral" setting people have for random passerby's.
This is also why I am an advocate for being not only comfortable saying you're an atheist, but unwilling to use fluffy language to indicate anything other than non-belief. If you want people to naturally assume someone isn't religious right away, more people who are un-religious need to speak out and say as such instead of letting the assumptions of others categorize them falsely.
I like "non-delusional". That's a great sentiment!!! I am proud at calling myself a firebrand atheist.
Atheism has such a negative connotation. Growing up Catholic, I thought that atheists were really scary people. In the US, Muslims are more highly regarded than atheists. I think religious people fear atheism because it undermines the whole religious foundation. Even in the US, where we supposedly have separation of church and state. I think religion, like economics, cannot be separated from politics and power. For me personally, I accept the term atheist because it is unambiguous. I do not believe in any higher power, ie. God, period.
The problem, & why I think it is important to embrace the term "atheist" is the "supposed" separation of church & state in this country. Support the FFRF!
I don't like the word because to most,or many southerners it means devil worshiper. They literally back away,the word is frightening to them.
True but that may also be an opportunity for a conversation. Things never change is conversations don't happen between people that have opposite views.
I feel entirely comfortable with my position that I am somewhere between and agnostic and a atheist
Atheist - Agnostic - the words don't matter that much. I feel comfortable saying that I am secular, a humanist, a non-believer - all the words are okay with me.
I'm comfortable with it and it's meaning. Against Theism, aka Atheism.
Actually, atheist is without belief. Anti-theist is against theism. I'm both, but tho an anti-theist is most likely an atheist, the obverse is not necessarily the case.
"Atheism is a Religion," they tell us... Off is a tv channel is the appropriate retort that they don't seem to understand.
But to your point --- We should label ourselves. I am not "undecided," I reject Christianity / Religion as myth and superstition. I think about Religion often, how messed up the world is because of it and "Atheism" is my stand against them. (sorry about the sloppy nature of this comment)
Religion and atheism both require you to (dis)believe something without evidence. You both follow the same fallacious logic to diametrically opposed conclusions. As such I consider both parties insane.
It's scary to me because I live in Texas. I've had to pretend all my life to get by here with people in general. If most of my neighbors knew, I think my house would at least be egged. I have to kind of feel people out before I can say the truth. So I belong to a couple of atheist meetups where everyone is a non believer.
Pretending seems like a very reasonable strategy if you live in a place like Texas, which I have done in the past. I lived in El Paso some years ago. With their Sunday blue laws and their penchant for violence, I can empathize with you.
I wear it proudly. Don't care what anyone else thinks, and can't believe the lengths that some of the 'christians' will go to to try to convince me otherwise, to the point that they argue, denying that I'm NOT a christian.
If you were a single Mom who needed a job as I was a few decades ago, you'd pretend as did I.
I am very comfortable with the word "Atheist". I have been one for most of my life and am almost 70 now. I have the right to think what I choose and don't intend to hide or shrink from my beliefs. If someone doesn't like it, they need to leave me alone. I have lost what I thought were friends over my beliefs but would rather that then continually giving away pieces of me to keep those people around. I tell people who harrass me about it that I intend to get cremated since I'll probably have to get used to the "heat"! It throws them off guard and shuts them up.
I have to agree with you on that. I am 65 and have been an Atheist for 58 of those years. So it's all I know. I do not know where you are from, but I grew up in southern Arkansas, and it's a LOT better now , than it was back in the 60's and 70's!
To me, atheism does not really make sense - because it requires an absolute certainty that no God exists. I don't claim to know that with absolute certainty - we don't know where the Universe and everything in it came from, how it was created, etc.. so I think that "the jury is still out" on whether there is actually a "supreme being" of some sort who might have created everything. That's why I'm an agnostic- I don't claim to know.
The fact that you can’t absolutely prove something doesn’t give it grounds for existence. You can’t prove that there isn’t a population of super intelligent squirrels living on one asteroid in the Kieber belt but I think we can all rationalize that they aren’t there.