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Guys ask why women are so pissed off. Even guys with wives and daughters. Jackson Katz, a prominent social researcher, illustrates why. He's done it with hundreds of audiences:

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other.
Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'
Then I ask the women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine.
Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

(The first man to minor in women's studies at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, holds a master's degree from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and a Ph.D. in cultural studies and education from UCLA.)

HippieChick58 9 Sep 28

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16

It always surprises me, how many men have no clue. And how many women do these things without a second thought.

@Stepmomofdragons yes. One of my daughter s walks with headphones in.so she can ignore catcalls.

13

This is a huge reminder to me because I had forgotten that I do all these things on a daily basis. They are so ingrained into my being, that I just don't notice them any more. 😟

12

I've been giving this a lot of thought since my initial response yesterday.

I think the men who ask the question simply do not get it.
That's it. They just don't get it.
I also think most of them don't want to get it, either.

11

My mother angrily shouted at me that the hearing was all a Democratic smear job. I asked her if she's ever even met anyone who experienced rape. I gave her a little dose of reality, and she told me to shut up. Another one for the "get me the hell out of mother's house file".

10

I re-read this, and most of the comments quite a few times, and had changed what my comment was going to be about 100 times.
So I've prepared myself for all the hate responses that I'll probably get.

First off, I by no means at all am trying to belittle any of the horrible ways a lot of women get treated by men.
It's down right inexcusable.

But one thing I have to say here is for one, it's not ALL men that treat others like this, there are many who would never treat a woman like that.
Second, I've known some men (including myself) that have been victomised by women. Yes, it does happen.
If you think that women are the only ones that get abused, raped, assaulted etc. Watch any prison doc. that will put an end to that kind of thinking right away.

Again, I really do understand (as much as I can) the horrible shit that some men do to not just women, but to anyone.
But I've also seen and lived some horrible shit some women have done to men as well.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I don't like it when anyone categorises people in one group. There are many different kind of people, and just as many different kinds of behaviour.

I think it's a good idea to talk about how EVERYONE, should or should not be treated.
JMHO.

The only prison movie I've ever watched is Shawshank Redemption, and yes assault happened in that movie. I am not about to hate on you, I agree with what you're saying. Yes, men can be victimized by women, and men are usually reluctant to go to the authorities because of the scorn they will endure. And men do horrible things to other men, or anyone they perceive as being weaker than they are. As a people we really haven't evolved much.

Yes, men get assaulted and raped, too; however, women are the victims of sexual assault much more often than men. According to these stats, 1 out of every 10 rape victims is male. [rainn.org]

The point is not that men are not sexually assaulted, but that more women than men are vulnerable. Every time I have seen the issues of WOMEN discussed online or in real life, someone protests that men are victims, as well; I do not deny this but again, overwhelmingly, women are the victim and, overwhelmingly, men are the perpetrators.

@HippieChick58 Thank you, I wasn't sure if anyone would get what I was trying to say.
But yeah, I think it should be that every one, men and women alike should be treated with respect, and kindness.

@Gwendolyn2018 you had me up until "However".
It's not a competition. there are other ways of being victimised other than just physical.
I have a pile of stories, as well as other men I know about some horrible shit that women do to men, just as men do to women.
My basic point was then ALL people deserve to be treated kindly, and with respect.

@TristanNuvo And I agree, but the point is that women are much more likely to be abused than are men. No offense intended, but the OP is about the fear of women, not men--if you want to discuss this issue, a new discussion would be in order.

@TristanNuvo By the way, you might well have a pile of stories, but those and those of people whom you know are anecdotal evidence and a logical fallacy. I have stories, too, and unlike a childhood friend of mine, you are still alive to tell your story. If you have been abused and taken advantage of that many times, you are the common denominator and should examine the type of women with whom you consort. And yes, I have told that to women who have the same type of experience.

@Gwendolyn2018 I love the double standard you use there.
You said that "If you have been abused and taken advantage of that many times, you are the common denominator and should examine the type of women with whom you consort".As if it is my fault that I was abused.
You do realize that it is the same thing as saying that women that are abused is their own fault.

And by the way, It wasn't just by women, I had an abusive father that put me in the hospital a few times.

And you still clearly missed my point once again that ALL people should be treated with kindness and respect. men and women alike.

@TristanNuvo No, it is not a double standard, and thanks for trying to twist what I said. Abuse is not the fault of the person being abused; I know as I was abused in a relationship. I am saying that people who are abused will often get out of one abusive relationship and into another. Based on anecdotal evidence (aka "personal experience" ), I can name several women whom I have know over my life who did this. It is not that they are "asking" for the abuse or that they are responsible for it, but that they need therapy to understand why they "pick" men who are abusive.

When I was in an abusive relationship, I was consistently told that it was my fault that he hit me, dragged me across the floor by my hair, yelled in my ear so loudly that it bled, and locked me out of the house. I did not report him because he said that he would kill the people whom I loved. As I had a friend who was murdered by her BF, I believed him. That was my only abusive relationship, and I will never be in another.

And you are incorrect in that I do not understand what you are saying: I agree that all people should be treated with respect. However, you do not seem to understand my point: the OP posted about WOMEN--specifically. If an OP posted about men being abused, their fear of women, and how they need to protect themselves, I would not post that women experience the same things.

It's kinda like if a man posted about being impotent, I would not made a comment about how women have sexual issues, too, so stop focusing on men.

The title is why WOMEN are pissed off--you could have made your point about all people needed to be treated with respect without giving the anecdotes about your experience to show how mean and nasty women can be.

10

Great post, thanks for that.

It's always surprising how some groups just can't see the pain of a separate group. I saw a youtube video recently of a guy who was a gamer and posted how he doesn't use a specific piece of software anymore because the company said they didn't need another white male youtuber as a representative. He called the company racist and the comments were a wave of "how dare they! BOYCOTT!!" Not one person stopped to think, damn so this is what minorities go through on a regular basis. It's not racism that people are concerned with, it's only racism against their race.

I see the same thing here, men will often huff and puff when there is a perceived sexist line against them, but won't consider at all to see what women go through regularly.

Thank you for your insights!!

"It's not racism that people are concerned with, it's only racism against their race". I like that statement and will use it when necessary.

9

For the benefit of the men reading this thread, I feel like I should add: I don't generally smile at men I don't know. It's not because I "hate" men in general, or even that I don't trust men in general--it's that I care so much about potentially catching the eye of the one person that maybe wants to hurt me that I don't have anything left to invest in caring about the hundreds of people whose feelings are maybe hurt because I didn't smile back at them.

Honestly, IDNGAF if you think I'm a stuck-up bitch. I care about staying alive, and unraped, unbeaten, unstalked, unharassed. It's worth it. Anyone who wants to guilt me over this is not someone I want to be around.

I think we all got the message in your original post. "Remain well clear of @stinkeye_a!"

9

A woman's senses is heightened every time she ventures out alone. They just are. I remember running early one morning and running past a group of men on the other side of the street. I remember to make eye contact (to let them know that I see them), but keep running. Of course, they just had to say something: "Hey, come here! I want to talk to you!" Or walking across the parking lot to work, a guy has to drive up (which puts me on alert) and catcall me (I told him to fuck off, which then he started to call me a bitch, blah, blah, before driving off). Or on another day leaving my car and walking to work, a guy in a minivan pulls up in front of me before I could get to the door and starts to jack off for a few moments before driving off. These are just some of many inappropriate situations that I have endured, and I haven't even mentioned the physical ones.

Us guys really do suck far too often.

@kmdskit3 I don't put all of you guys in the same basket. I know there are some truly good ones out there.

I never realized just how bad this problem was or how often this sort of stuff occurred until joining this website and the growth of the #metoo movement. Hopefully the growing consciousness of this problem will lead to changes in our society.

@BlackDove I do try to not behave so reprehensibly but that doesn't mean I'm immune. I think it's important for all guys to recognize that kind of stupidity is within us.

9

Women and girls are unsafe in America, and all over the world.

Since age 15, I have been grabbed, kissed, fondled, sexually assaulted, stalked by two different men, and catcalled. Two supervisors tried to rape me at work: Tacoma Family YMCA and an insurance agency. I dress modestly.

Both times I hiked alone, I was frightened by men.

"Hey pretty lady! Where are you sleeping tonight? We'll join you!" hunters called, leering. On horses with rifles, they were heading up for the high hunt.

This was a women's backpacking trip. One-by-one, my friends dropped out. I hiked in alone. One friend planned meet me in the morning. She never did.

I spent a terrified night awake in the tent, jumping at every snap in the woods. At dawn, I broke camp and fled. Carrying a 50-lb. pack, I RAN.

The result is PTSD. Walking, I constantly scan people around me. Never look at my phone while walking. Cross the street to avoid men. Lock my doors. Never live in a ground-floor apartment. Never walk or run after dark. I never go to bars. Every time I went to a bar- to watch my alma maters, Univ. of Michigan and Univ. of Washington, in the Rose Bowl - men grabbed me, and wouldn't leave me alone. I'm not safe.

Never park beside a van. At 113 lbs, I could easily be grabbed and thrown in, raped and killed. This happened to Carol, 16, my sister's best friend. Carol's naked, raped and beaten body was found in a ditch two weeks later.

At 19, my daughter was raped and severely beaten in her bed at college. She was asleep when he attacked her. The rapist was a college student who plans to be an attorney.

Four girls took the rapist to court. Claire was re-traumatized facing her rapist by testifying in other girl's trials.

It infuriated me that the rapist's attorney got the judge to not register the rapist as a sexual predator. Since then, a federal law requires all convicted rapists to be registered as sexual predators.

Nine years later, Claire still wakes up screaming. She still has panic attacks.

That is horrifying! I ache for you and your daughter.

@HippieChick58

Thank you.

9

We have guys in our midst who act like dominant male chimpanzees. We really have not evolved very far, have we?

THANK YOU for this!! I am hoping that someday, preferably in my lifetime, that the rest of the men of at least the US will evolve as much as you have.

@HippieChick58 Good luck and with the present leadership this is actually going backwards. Watch out for hairy chested men bearing big clubs.

@JackPedigo Yes, sadly you are correct. Which is why we need to impeach the orange POS POTUS, Despot Donnie before too much more damage is done.

That's an incorrect understanding of evolution, I think!

There's an interesting TED talk (I think; can't be arsed to look it up right now) that explodes the "alpha male" paradigm, using chimp or ape (can't remember) studies: they found that the most successful, respected male leaders were the ones who were conciliatory and empathetic--not the most aggressive, braggadocios ones. It's from the same guy who was involved in the wolf studies that gave use the term "alpha male", I think.

9

I think some men are getting their eyes opened a little.

Let’s hope so!

I had a good male friend thank me for posting this in FB. He said he had no idea.

8

I can only speak for myself. Some of the people who do those things (rape, etc) have a mental condition. Others just plain aren't raised right.

I was raised by a proud carpenter who had a very rough childhood. My father. And he always taught me that if I'm stepping in to help a woman who needs it, prison or not as the result, then it's the right thing to do. To date in clubs in my youth I injured more than a couple "bros" who thought they were above right and wrong.

In a side note they are never able to deal with a man who's bullying them but they can bully a woman.

That’s a very noble philosophy. Your dad was (or is. I have no way to know) a good man, and it appears you are too

@CatnipKDODO he is and thank you.

8

What a powerful post.

8

Doesn't really refer to being "pissed off". True, the above does highlight what women go through all the time. To make this analysis refer to being pissed off, it does show all the added baggage women have to lug around. These current supreme court hearings show how women have to take so much shit from men. Considering the suffragette movement, Rosa Parks, Anita Hill have had to go through would highlight in a better way why women are justifiabfy pissed off. While we're at it, call the Senate switch board before today, Friday Sept. 28th @ 202-224-3121 now. You will be directed to your Senator, tell her/him to NOT vote for Kavanaugh's nomination.

8

This article is spot on. And its truly sad that this is 2018 and a lot of guys still are so unaware - what the hell is it going to take?

8

His book is amazing! I used it in my Gender Studies all the time. I love Katz’s work and activism, because he teaches men how to be allies with women.

7

When will we figure out that the best way to prevent any kind of assault is for those who commit them to NOT COMMIT THEM? Nothing that anyone does gives anyone an excuse to assault anyone. Fucking simple. ?

Agreed.
Unfortunately, implementing this is probably not doable.

@bigpawbullets why? Only because we take it for granted and just go "oh well, just not doable".

@bigpawbullets is it not "doable" because the way such men devalue and dehumanize women would have to stop? And in order for them to stop devaluing women , would that require them to value themselves? So maybe if we expect more of men, and they expect more from themselves, and not expect them to assault people, maybe they will value life in general , including their own, and by extension, that of women. I always tell my kids "when people are mean to you, just remember, its because they hate themselves". Its hard to see the worth of others if you have no self worth.

It is pathological, compulsive behavior by people who are not in enough control of themselves to 'not commit' such acts. Regardless of degree, the behavior is sick. Until or unless a sure cure/reversal becomes available, any such predator should be purged from open society permanently. The damage they cause and lives they ruin aren't temporary and they are owed no supported, continued existence in return for the damage they cause.

As social self-defense, until a cure is found, terminating their lives is both rational and guaranteed as a direct preventative. If homicide is a rational solution for self/national protection in war, it follows in this case. If homicide is a solution to prevent family growth, it follows here. If it is an acceptable means for ridding society of murderers, kidnappers and those who would use espionage to jeopardize our lives and safety, it is consistent to employ it as a means of eliminating sexual predators and consequences for victims and the society in which they live-on. Also, drug purveyors should be worthy of the same termination, since they similarly ruin and take lives.

China doesn't suffer these kinds of social problems. Drug dealers go right to firing squads. They don't support religions, so sexual predators are more a rare exception than common menace.

@Punkrockgirl77
@silver1wun provides, while Draconian, the only approach to this that would stand any chance of success. I'd give it, maybe, an 80% success probability. More severe solutions might be available through pharmaceuticals or surgery. But can you realistically visualize any of this being implemented in the USA?

@bigpawbullets No I can't, but expectations have no bearing on whether it is a solution. I can't see caning going on here either.

Our refusal to face remedies that promise efficacy is central to the reasons for being engulfed in the problems along with refusal to face the causes; which rest squarely to prevalence of pathogenic, anthrocentric theologies and the cultures they spawn.

@Silver1wun !
I took the liberty of reading your profile. I'm thinking you might be a voice of reason in the wilderness.

@bigpawbullets Thanks, it doesn't get much better than that.

@Silver1wun you are honestly saying that rapists have no control over, and therefore no responsibility for, their actions? Really? Bullshit. That just excuses them from doing it.

@Silver1wun so, which is rape caused by-- pathology, or culture? You have posited both as explanations, and it can't really be both . Also- corporal punishment/firing squads/ caning, etc. are both wrong and ineffective as means to stop or prevent violence. Violence begets violence.

@Punkrockgirl77 I know nothing about you and really don't need to in order to determine your need for improved reading comprehension. If I really believed that people who commit violent, life destroying crimes were not culpable for their actions under the law; or at least ideal laws, I wouldn't advocate terminating their existence.

Control or lack thereof are not an excuse when it comes to one's acts destroying lives of others. It is a great tragedy that they are manufactured by the very parts of our culture that claim to oppose them.

It is you, ironically, and not I that makes a case for not terminating them as one of a number of remedies. You apparently feel that your sense of 'humanity' in being reluctant to destroy them trumps the interests of guaranteed future victims. How fortunate to whine about damage these vermin do, in or out of control, while affording yourself the luxury of advocating for them by claiming that corporal or terminal consequences are "ineffective" with zero examples to cite, since those remedies are not in use.

You must be tuned-into some superior cosmic intelligence that is blind to social conditions in the streets and homes of places like Singapore or China. Make no mistake. I DO NOT advocate their forms of government for us. No system is wholly perfect or wholly flawed/ That is for misguided sycophants of the Left and Right.

Efficacy questions are arguable by degrees. What is not arguable is: Dead men commit no rapes; nor do they destroy lives of addicted and non-addicted innocent people by propagating drugs and hopeless addictions.

@Punkrockgirl77 Incidentally, rape is caused not by 'which' but by influences of both pathology and culture because culture is the fertile androcentric ground nurturing that pathology. Males and females are both damaged. What differs is how they act out and how deeply they are damaged.

@Silver1wun your statement presumes that all men who commit acts of sexual violence are innately mentally ill. I disagree. Is brett kavanagh mentally ill? Or is he simply acting in accordance with a rape culture? The solution is not to kill people or give them medicine. The solution is changing the way we all think of sex, women, and consent, as a culture and on a societal level.

@Punkrockgirl77 "The way we all think of sex, women and consent, as a culture and on a societal level." It is cluttered with assumptions that don't belong.. First, 'we all' don't think, in spite of culture, the same way to begin with and if we DID think slavishly by cultural dictates about such things, 'all' meaning men and women both, there would be nobody to dispute the validity. The statement is absolute, confining and falsely inclusive.

Next false presumption is that Kavanaugh actually did what was alleged and that what is merely alleged to exist and has been given a name 'rape culture' is something solid; something upon which one can found real reasoning. Neither has any more actual evidence of existence than the alleged parting of the Red Sea. One can't base a serious discussion on abstract maybes and wishful thinking.

Men who commit sexual and other kinds of violence; making those physically weaker their victims are sick people. Those destructive behaviors aren't native to males free of pathogenic cultural influences nor destructive behaviors typical of females damaged by acculturation. What they do share universally is patterns. They are part of the character structure, unless corrected, and follow individuals throughout their lives; usually worsening. Being compulsive, like secondary rooted addictions, control is only temporary. Recurrence is guaranteed.

There is nothing 'natively destructive' on the part of either sex as part of creaturehood to anyone but theological and political propagators of fanaticism. One cannot reason with people who base their alleged "thinking" on the pap they consume from ideological or theological exploiters.

@Silver1wun even if u still think kavanagh did not assault her, his his own documented and corroborated statements and writings from that time are evidence of his horrid behavior and attitudes toward sex and women.

@Punkrockgirl77 More the point, why is the lesson still not being learned in China? They are still regularly shooting rapists and drug dealers, so it is clearly not the answer, nor is it a deterrent. It's the same with their crackdown on Christianity, it is still flourishing despite their best endeavours.
There have been false assumptions that rapists pick on those who are physically weaker; that does not explain male rapes.
Trying claim that such assaults happen because the men involved are innately evil or mentally ill is palpable nonsense. Such people are driven by a complex interrelation of testosterone, family upbringing, the objectification of women and the view that 'conquests' are a sign of masculinity, coupled with the idea that power gives you the right over others.
More generally, if deterrents worked, why are prisons overcrowded the world over? Clearly, they are failing and doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is madness, to paraphrase Einstein.

7

It saddens me that this is even an issue. It's terrible that women have to be constantly on the defensive because of this very real, virtually constant, danger.

7

I have zero expectation that any of this is going to change.
None.
Sure, all this effort into trying to raise awareness is great.
I just don't really see it making that much of a difference.

I think ... I fervently hope your wrong...my belief is that the more we teach our children and each other, things can and will change...getting rid of Religions that teach men to dominate women is the biggest hurdle as I see it...that's where it starts...every God Damn time...unless they are just plain psychopaths...in which case we need better ways to screen for it in schools...problem there is a lot of people will scream "invasion of privacy"...society as a whole needs to evolve or it will destroy itself. Equality, empathy, science and social conscience...namaste

@phoenixone1 I'd like to be wrong. I really would, but I don't think I'm going to see it in my lifetime. Maybe someday. Maybe never. No telling.

I agree and actually think it is going to get worse instead of better. A large portion of those who are or potentially will be predators are getting the message that even if they get caught it isn't a big deal. Just talk about how it impacts your career, family, etc and suddenly the criminal is the victim and the women who are abused are sitting on the sideline being hit with sticks and called a liar.

@KKGator well at least I hope you can be happy...if not all the time...a good some of the time...Namaste

7

You have to watch this man's TED Talk. I post it at least once a year to my FB page. If I could figure out how to do it, I'd work with this man. He's putting amazing information about there on not just the toxicity of "Manhood" but how it's making men suffer, too.

7

What a great post! I do want to say that men are victims of sexual assault, however usually it is a male sexually assaulting a male. When I taught high school, I had experts speak to the students about sexual assault and how to protect yourself from it. It was primarily aimed at the females, but they did have information for the males as well. At that time, 1 in 7 young males were victims of rape, and it is primarily a pedophilia-type of situation. We mainly think of children as the victims of pedophiles, but adolescent young men can be victimized as well. An older male would befriend the younger male, give him drugs and alcohol until he passed out, then sexually assault him while he is incapacitated. At that time, the police in our community had just arrested 2 older males who had sexually assaulted 3 adolescent males in the community with this same scenario. Men who are sexually assaulted largely goes unreported and unspoken. That being said, the majority of sexual assault in our society is still a male raping a female.

6

A few days after i was assaulted when i was 12 by a family friend who lived with us, i had to go to an official police interview. When getting ready, my mother told me not to wear bright lipstick. "We don't want them [the police] thinking you were asking for it."

I quit wearing feminin or revealing clothes at that point.

6

We know what kind of scum Brett Kavanaugh and Donald Trump are, we know exactly what their kind are like and we shun them for the twisted and perverted weaklings that they are. Please don't make the mistake of lumping us in with the misogynists because we aren't, we're feminists just like you. Don't accept all women as feminists by default either, we know that isn't the case, many are more sexist against their sisters than Brett Kavanaugh ever could be and they do this consciously.

6

[agnostic.com] There still are,good decent Men,available in the dating World,some are scarred from bitter divorces,and also Widowers who have lost their partner in life. We are not all predators.......

@CoastRiderBill I know I am!

6

Not making light of this but rephrase the question. Draw the same line and ask. "What do you do on a daily basis to prevent being assaulted?" Just omit that one word and see the difference. Men are far more likely to be a victim of assault. Not sexual granted but it can and does kill you. When men say that a woman was dressed provocatively, it is not necessarily an accusation. Ask a guy if he would walk into a rival teams bar wearing his home teams shirt? The answer would be "I don't have a death wish". We have to learn from a very early age to deal with violent assault. Never mind puberty, we learn this in kindergarten. Staying in well lite areas, avoiding eye contact, puffing your chest out and straightening up to look more formidable are second nature to us.
It is good that men get to know how women have to go though life but it might be beneficial for women to know how we go through life too?

You make some excellent points, here; however, I'd also argue that of the men who face assault, they do so at the hands of other men, not women.

@orange_girl For the most part true. Although new research suggests that as much as 40% of domestic violence may be women against men. Surprising I grant you but men are far less likely to report this.
As to plain old "assault" women will suffer at the hands of the same sex just as men do.

@273kelvin I would rather have a physical assault than being raped any day.

Your logic here reminds me of whites who claim to be victims of racism. Why are so many men making these β€œbut what about us?” arguments? It’s time to listen to women, not argue about assault probabilities.

@273kelvin there is also data showing child abuse is committed by the mother just as much, if not more than, the father but in today's climate these kinds of studies are silenced for an agenda. Toxic femininity is just as much a problem as toxic masculinity but to point out the facts of it will only get u attacked and slander as a sexist who hates their own mother. A small percentage of women who still wear the feminst label (about 20% of women) have unchecked control of the talks and anyone who don't tow the line are destroyed by any means possible. The feminists even attack other women for not towing the line of misandry they have been pushing for about a decade now.

@orange_girl Look I am not trying to lessen what women go through but statements like "I would rather have a physical assault than being raped any day." Do no one any good. !st there is no point saying my dogs bigger than yours. Especially when its untrue. Victims of rape are so often threatened with violence unless they comply so... 2nd to what degree? I know that given the choice (and its not something I would wish to choose) would I rather have my balls felt be either sex against my will or have them crushed?
Is rape a fate worse than death?
No one should have to be subjected to either.

You have just marginalized the problem, which means you do not understand the problem. Men and women are equally likely to be assaulted in the degree that you describe. Women are many times more likely to be SEXUALLY assaulted. And I have news for you, rape IS a fate worse than death, because death is FINAL...it ends on the day it happens. The trauma of rape affects a woman emotionally for every single day of the rest of her life.

@orange_girl
"Why are so many men making these β€œbut what about us?” arguments? "
In this case, it's because the post specifically made it a "us vs. them" by virtue of the drawing a line down the chaulkboard and the nature of the question. A good 80% of the things listed there I do as well and not because of fear of sexual assault, but for not putting myself in a position where I can get assaulted or mugged.

The strong point that 273Kelvin brings out is that fear of assault exists in all humans. It's not a "ours is better than yours"... it's not a "I'd rather be physically than sexually" assaulted thing... it's a recognition that males and females both have fear of being assaulted and that at least in terms of this exercises most of those behaviors are common to both.

This is not a diminishing of the fact that we should recognize sexual assault IS a problem.
This is merely stating that alienating people, in this case alienating men, is not the best way IMO to approach a solution.
After all, a rapist who sees that list will say "Guess I just have to try harder" while a non-rapist who sees that list says "I do the same thing, so what's your point?"... neither leads to the real conversation (IMO) of what men can do more to help women feel secure around us and project to the men zero-tolerance towards sexual misconduct.

@273kelvin If you believe all of the things you just stated in your last post, THEN WHY DID YOU MAKE YOUR ORIGINAL COMMENT? You were totally lessening what women go through. Why on earth would you highjack a thread about sexual violence against women by claiming that men face more risk of physical assault? Really?!?

@orange_girl, @jorj

It would be interesting to compare lesbian women vs. hetereo women on the same metric given that:

"The best estimate is based on a study conducted in San Francisco in 2005, which found that one-third of lesbians reported having been sexually assaulted by another woman, and roughly confirmed the work of other researchers in the late ’80s and early ’90s"

[slate.com]

@TheMiddleWay Actually, the "line down the middle" does not divide people in the way you're thinking, I'd argue. I've read a lot of Katz work and he is dedicated to bringing women and men together. He often works with athletes on college campuses to teach them to be allies of women and role models for the community, because not all men are rapists.

I do think that people often see all issues as "us" vs. "them" and/or as a zero sum game. It's a shame, because we can successfully coexist. πŸ™‚

@TheMiddleWay I hope their future research includes bi-sexual and transwomen. I don't doubt the accuracy of that study, although I'd argue that sexual assault is actually higher than 1:3 for heterosexual women.

@orange_girl
I have no doubt that his intention is to do that and, not being well versed on his works, don't know what his other techniques or writings entail.

However, in this particular exercise, he is making a list of behaviors and, by the wording of the question, exclusively attributing them to women. As we've pointed out, those behaviors are not exclusive to women in the slightest and thus the artificial division by creating the illusion that women do something that men don't or that those behaiviours are exclusive to sexual assault when a good majority (don't go jogging at night, be careful of your drinking, look in your backseat before getting in, and more) are just good safety practices for anyone to adopt.

@orange_girl
"I'd argue that sexual assault is actually higher than 1:3 for heterosexual women."
Well, according to this 2015 report:

1: 5 women, 1:71 men,
1: 4 Girls, 1:5 Boys

The figures are higher for homosexual individuals.

[nsvrc.org]

@Stepmomofdragons [cdc.gov]

I don't pull anything out of my ass, u don't research is the actual problem.

@Stepmomofdragon [huffingtonpost.com]

I've shared this same link about 20 times now. Even a leftie biased HuffPost can't deny the facts. This is a few years back as well, and people have left the group even more now days. Any thing else u want me to share? I can back up everything I say.

@Stepmomofdragons question now is are u goin to admit u are wrong or just block me like most of the women do when they can't refute the facts and still want to live in their echo chamber?

@TheMiddleWay things I've seen show lesbian couples have the highest rates of domestic abuse but like everything else negative about women, it is silence on that issue. The narrative that "men are bad, women are good" is in control of all the talks about abuse and violence. Facts don't matter in the USA, only feelings matter.

@MissKathleen I am not trying to marginalize the problem. Young men between 18 & 25 are far more likely to be a victim of assault than any other group. An understanding of what both sexes have to encounter has got to be beneficial for either sex.

@PalacinkyPDX I resent and refudiate your accusation. My comment was not meant to be all about me. It was an honest attempt to bring an understanding of what both sexes go through. If the questioner had omitted the word sexual first and THEN asked the audience the sexual assault question. Then many there might have picked up some insight and or tips to avoid these things. Many of the prophylactic measures stated by the original post are also things that men do too.

@Stacey48 Point taken but do you concede my point that men are far more likely to be a victim of common assault?

@TheMiddleWay, @orange_girl, @Stepmomofdragons, @Stacey48, @MissKathleen I include here a link and extract from the national crime statistics.
"Sex
Men were more likely to be victims of CSEW violent crime than women (2.1% of males compared with 1.3% of females1, Figure 9). This was true for all types of violence, with the exception of acquaintance violence which showed no significant difference and domestic violence which showed the reverse trend (0.4% of females were victims compared to 0.2% of males). The year ending March 2017 CSEW showed that:"

stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.3% compared with 0.4%)
around twice as many men (1.2%) as women (0.6%) experienced violence without injury"
[ons.gov.uk]

@MissKathleen Okay if you get murdered then it ends there but what if you survive? My gay friend had his jaw smashed by thugs 5 years ago. He hung himself last year.

@273kelvin That is not what this thread is about. For the love of Christ (pun intended) can't you see that when you keep talking about all the men who experience violence and what about them that you are ignoring the issue at hand here? This is male privilege at it's worst. This is not about men as victims. The world doesn't revolve around men anymore.

@273kelvin Gay men do experience more violence than straight men...from other men. I have a gay friend who was brutally raped by other gay men at a Halloween party. It is a similar problem. But it is not the problem we are discussing.

@orange_girl If you feel that my comment was irrelevant then just ignore it. My point was that the post gave out the impression that women are the only victims of assault and that men do not have to take measures to prevent being attacked. This is misleading. I stated right at the start of my comment that I was in no way trying to undermine or make light of the problem. Merely that men are (as my statistical reference showed) 3 times more likely to be a victim of stranger assault. Do you think that is a privilege?
There are many other threads here that address what you call the issue at hand. All I tried to point out was that we are all in this together sister.
All of my life I have endeavored to treat women with respect. It would be nice if that was reciprocated.

@MissKathleen Brian was a victim of hate crime.
I have never been raped nore have I been left for dead in a pool of my own blood. I would not be crass or patronizing enough to say that one was worse than the other

@273kelvin i think you are missing the point. I am astonished that in one post you say you support women and then keep making this about men, too. I believe that by focusing on men, you’re erasing women’s voices.

Can you understand maybe in terms of race? When a Black person tries to describe their experiences with racism and then whites talk about how hard they have it, too? The two don’t compare.

@273kelvin You have wandered far from the original discussion. You stated that rape was not worse than death. I told you why it IS worse than death: Death is final, there is no residual effect; rape has a life-long effect on the victim. I understand why you felt the need to insert a different agenda into the conversation as the motive for your original statement. You were trying to make the point that hate crimes against men (without saying β€œgays&rdquoπŸ˜‰ are as vile as rape. Because I have had many gay friends in my adukt life, (I lived in Los Angeles for 35 years) I do understand the hate crimes perpetrated against gays. I have had gay friends who were both assaulted and raped. My observation is that the rape victims have longer-lasting trauma, as do women rape victims. However, that was not the discussion.

@MissKathleen I do wish to argue any further. The law does not view rape as a capital offence. I outside of the old testament I do not know any laws that do. Therefore society does not. If you disagree with this then thats your prerogative.

@273kelvin There is no logic there. Have a good day; be happy and find the joy.

@273kelvin reciprocation would be idea. I will be the first to admit the evils of some men and would love to be part in fixing that problem. On the other hand, when the conversation is only allowed to be discussed as if men are the only problem, while any facts of of female violence are met with quick attacks and insults, I must say to these people good luck but I will not stand and fight for u if u won't stand and fight for me as well. I do sympathize with victims of all walks of life but the way this discussion is being held leads to men like Trump winning office. The left wing marginalizes the biggest block of voters in the country and then hate us for not showing up to vote for their interests. Until the left wing welcomes ALL issues to be on the table all I can say is good luck under repub rule. Over 1000 losses in a decade because of this stuff and the final nail in the coffin being Trump, and they still won't realize why they loss even tho the majority of Americans wants left wing policy. I'm so far left I'm borderline anarchist but I'm told all the time how I'm a FOX News idiot because the facts I present are not ones that fit the white male bashing agenda, but instead fit the all inclusive with no exceptions agenda. The left wants to marginalize men like me and u so let them keep on crying about Trump for all I care. Gonna be even worse once he is re-elected in 2020 because the dems refuse to see the problem.

@jorj I am not sure that this is the post to discuss this but to a degree I take your point. Love him or loath him (I am of the latter). One thing Trump has done has stopped to trivializing of sexual politics. By being the lefts worst nightmare, small stuff are no longer being sweated. I recall a a news item a few years back when scientists landed a probe on a comet.All the media could talk about was the inappropriate shirt the guy wore for the press conference. (It had scantily clad ladies on it). Like scientists are noted for their dress sense. The guy helped put a probe on a comet ffs.

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