Excellent response.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis. The check is in the mail. I appreciate you trying to make more out of what I did but I asked a simple question: if you're not religious what or who do you pray to. No more no less. if someone wants to make up some gobbledygook about not being religious but praying anyway using the same rationale as religion then you're correct, it's the same to me.

@lerlo Why are you so angry about this? You aren’t actually listening to or reflecting on anyone’s answers. Don’t ask a question if you’re just going to get defensive and condescending when people give their thoughts on it

@Marcie1974 where are you getting anger? As I see it, he is asking a simple question - if someone is not religious but says they pray, who or what are they praying to? Not one person is answering that question. They are talking about spirituality, religion and even language but no one is answering the question. Why? If I asked what color is the sky? Would you give a dissertation of how clouds are made? No you would tell me what color the sky is.

@Marcie1974 the people name calling and being condescending ate the people who don't want to admit that their cover of spirituality is the same as being religious. Look in the mirror

@lerlo I don’t claim to be either religious nor spiritual. Again, if you would actually read the words I wrote, rather than getting fired up and not actually comprehending the words, I was simply trying to explain why some people (NOT me) may make a differentiation between being religious and spiritual.

@Heidi68 have you read through all the comments? It seems to me that @lerlo blasts every reply, and the person making the reply. I am neither religious or spiritual, however he got all fired up at my response as to why I think some people (NOT me) identity as spiritual.

@PadraicM See my update above for her response in her language...see what you think.

@lerlo I read it, and I think that her reply is pretty plain spoken. I still stand by my position that she was trying to escape the negative connotations of being religious. She pretty much said that in her reply. Also, the ultimate test of the initial communication, would you two find each other compatible enough to pursue a relationship, was answered by her in the "no" fashion. She mentions that she is in a 12-step program. These often have (paraphrased) the notion that we are powerless to overcome our addiction and we need a higher power to do so. Since she wants to honestly overcome her addiction, she has embraced the process while couching the ideas in her preferences for a kinder guiding universal force. Without giving the denomination of the church, we can only make assumptions (likely correct) that it is Judaeo-Christian based, but her own personal view doesn't reflect that specifically. She seems to have a more deistic or at least non-personally involved deity-force in mind. Her prayers seem to "go out into the universe" (my words, quotes for effect) without having an intended target in mind besides HP (hehehe, praying to a bottle of brown sauce came to mind, its a UK thing like A1). So now we know what she prays to, the universe and anything that might hear her. My guess is that would mean herself, her subconscious and people within the mechanical wave propagation of her prayer.
Also, this is more of a sociological analysis than a psychoanalysis. I'm an academic, it's what I do for a living. Your question reminded me of the types of questions my students submit when talking about the economics of social issues (one of my main research/teaching areas, post engineering career). But to quote Maui from Moana "it's ok, it's ok, you're welcome!"
@Heidi68 I think the trick of it is that it seems like a simple question until you unpack what is meant by everything she is saying. The real key is that we didn't have her words, only our assumptions about what she meant, and those were heavily biased by our own perceptions. the fact that @lerlo was asking about what she meant also shows that those of us participating in this conversation saw there was more than just the obvious and that there could be multiple viewpoints on it all. I think it was a good question that boiled down to "Help, somebody said something and I don't understand what exactly they meant. Can anybody chime in with some ideas to help me understand it?" Oh, and to get to your question about what color is the sky, I would go into the physics of it (which would sort of entail info about how clouds are made as moisture content and suspension of precipitates is important to our perception of sky colour).

@PadraicM First, I'm the one that told her no when I asked her the question, I told her that our lifestyles clash. She's the one disappointed. Someone who makes up a god, whether it be "the god" or not, is religious. She can dance around it, you can try and make explanations for her but she fits the dictionary definition of religious--going to church didnt hurt that. She's religious and prays to a god of her choosing. Because she might not like the term "religious" doesn't make her any less religious.

@PadraicM why do we have to unpack anything? He gave us background to give context but in reality it was/is a simple question - "So if you're not religious, just who or what are you praying to?"
The responders responses are unpacking the unknown (making a lot of assumptions on what she means) and not answering the basic question and that is the problem.
(Yes I know she finally answered him - she is praying to her own version of a sky monkey and has found a church that fits her beliefs).

@Heidi68 Unpacking because that is the essence of his question, intended or not. Unpacking is how we realize the assumptions we make (which is all we could do in the first instance, which many professed in some term or another). Terms to unpack include spiritual, prayer, and why a "who or what" must be prayed to. He admits to selecting a definition of spiritual instead of all possible definitions. Dictonary.com defines spiritual as:

1. relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
   2.relating to religion or religious belief.
   So I assume this is the one he used as it lines up with his claim that the second one relates to religion (my words, too lazy to scroll up).
   There is a pretty important distinction between the definitions as one has nothing to formally do with religion while the latter directly does. Merriam-Webster has further definitions that would create more of a mess. So while he is asking what she means, he imposes his denotation (admittedly not the only denotation) on it.
   Next, have to unpack what is meant by "praying". Is it being used in the transitive form or intransitive form. She is the only one who can answer that. The update leads me to think it is intransitive, so it would be defined as:
2. to make a request in a humble manner
   2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving (Merriam-Webster)
   The second definitely requires a "to who/what" but the first doesn't necessarily. Also, the transitive definition of the verb doesn't require a "to whom or what" if they have a different view of what they mean by spiritual. I am assuming "what" has to be conscious and capable of receiving a prayer here, so praying "to the universe" in general wouldn't qualify as something specific. People tried to answer his question, albeit loaded with their assumptions of these terms. This is in addition to he unpacking that I did in my original reply. Also, I believe I commented that she was probably trying to disassociate herself from the negative baggage associated with religion. Based on her reply in the update, I would say I was pretty spot on there. She was conveying a message about herself, not the actions detailed. Language is an imperfect way of transmitting ideas between a sender and a receiver. Her message, and what she meant by to whom or what she is praying, is that it doesn't matter. She doesn't perceive herself as formally religious and prays to whatever may be listening. She is also not ready to let go of her mythology and superstitions as they bring some level of comfort.

So to make a long story short: she is praying to feel a sense of comfort to help get through her 12 step program. It is not a to as much as it is just an is. More fun, if you were to ask other people who were "spiritual but not religious," I wager you would get several different response categories as well.

I agree. I don't consider it prayer; some do, and for some who say that it's also a matter of semantics. For me it's purely inner dialogue and something I came to understand not in a religious sense but from therapeutic one. I consider myself "spiritual" in a sense of my own inner self and not a deity outside myself, and I believe in a life force, but not one that, again, comes from outside myself, but something that allows us to be connected to each other as human beings.

@Allamanda

There are plenty of words to describe what one feels. I meditate, self reflect and consider my purpose in the world. I wonder, ponder and connect to people daily. If you "pray" it is to something with a power to hear you. That is a belief in a higher power, based on this woman's profile.

I have no time for this. If one doesn't want to associate with a particular denomination, that's their prerogative, but its mine to view them as unaware of what they're actually doing.

@Allamanda

We use terms based on our current, modern day, understanding of them.

If one chooses to call himself a "witch" instead of a doctor, he will be perceived a certain way.

@Allamanda

True, but we understand the language we speak in North America.

@Allamanda

Okay, I respect your opinion.

I will move away from the language itself and its subjective meaning and say this.

Anyone who uses it is not someone I can relate to on that front. I personally find it intellectually dishonest to blow the "spiritial" and "prayer" whistle without drawing attention to it being a contradiction.
People can use whatever terminology they wish, but if I don't take them seriously, that's my prerogative too. Fair?

@Athena I think you'll appreciate the answer I received from her--see the update I posted

Think twice about changing it....

@zblaze I generally think twice about listening to strangers telling me what to do...but, in the spirit of this site, I did change it...glad it made a marked difference in someone's life

@thinktwice Please see her answer to me in the update I posted above

@lerlo I did read it...keep on looking...

@thinktwice well if you notice I told her no from the beginning But so much for not being religious

@lerlo yes...you have good instincts and can read people well...

Quite right. A biography doth not maketh a woman!

ding ding ding ding ding That's what I take from her answer.

Well I asked the writer, let's see if she has the guts to answer. However, someone here who believes as she does might be able to explain it to me.

@lerlo when you say “we’ll see if she has the guts to answer” it sounds like you’re deliberately trying to pick a fight. On a dating site.

She (and others) may not even know themselves what they mean by spiritual. I know a lot of people who are disillusioned with churches and organized religion, but they’re not quite ready to outright not believe in any deity. They recognize that the traditional god of Christianity is BS but still thing there’s “something” out there.

I’m curious as to why you are seeking a concrete answer to a more philosophical question? Not everything is black and white. There are grey areas. Be respectful that some people may not even be able to explain it

@Allamanda sounds like maybe you pray but are not religious?

@Marcie1974 Mercie thanks for chiming in but you act as if I asked her if she had guts. To me, I expect people to be able to explain why they believe what they believe. No different on this site from people demanding to know why people believe in a god that doesn't exist. I stated up front that I believed that spirituality equals religious. One of the answers I received here tries to say it's different but gives the same crazy rationalization for instance one suggestion that it's okay to pray to the ceiling which is no different than Marx' opiate of the masses. if you must know, I told her our lifestyles clash but told her I had to ask if she's not religious what she prays to. A simple question, if she has no simple answer great. To me, covering something up by calling it philosophical but on the other hand saying that the religion is b.s is a little hypocritical.

@Allamanda when I signed up for this wonderful site I didn't guarantee to agree with everyone's views. But I don't call names if I don't agree with a question.

@Allamanda I didn't delete it. It's called the word obtuse

@Allamanda clearly the site is censoring but it's clear to me who you were calling obtuse. and for the censor of this site, I'm guessing you're spiritual-but-not-religious huh?

@lerlo I was not trying to imply you asked her if she had the guts. But you saying it here does, to me anyways, make it sound like you’re deliberately trying to antagonize her. My question to you is why? Why do you need to know why any one person identifies as spiritual as opposed to religious?

“No different on this site from people demanding to know why people believe in a god that doesn’t exist.” Again, the word demanding sounds aggressive. I’ve never demanded to know why someone believes. They most likely grew up in religion and haven’t bothered to think critically about it. Why deliberately antagonize someone over their personal beliefs?

@Marcie1974 since she's not on the site I can't antagonize her here. My question in my post was simple and non antagonistic. From what I can tell since some people are using the same rationalization that's used for religion, people calling themselves spiritual but not religious is just a cover. which goes to my belief in the second definition of the word spiritual which equates with religion. I just think it's hypocritical to say one but not the other. I question everything, someone who doesn't like to be questioned gets defensive. I'm used to the attacks on this site but because someone can't rationally explain their belief doesn't mean I'm degrading them but it's a nice attack to cover their lack of rationale.

@lerlo please read what I’m writing. I did not say your question was condescending. Your replies to what people have written in your OP are antagonistic

@skado Please see her response to me in the update above

Yeah, a lot of agnostics label themselves that way so their families won't know that they are

@lerlo not atheists I know. Must be an American thing!

@Geoffrey51 I was being facetious to the post I was commenting on

@lerlo "so their families won't know that they are" OR for a whole variety of reasons feel that their family will be unable to keep up with all their thinking.

yeah it was the prayer part that had me...

I subscribe to the theory that each living human being has a "spirit" or soul which is what makes a person appear to be more than alive. Can we call it something else to dissociate from the churches? Everything else about the body can be defined in terms of biochemical materials and chemical reaction. This 'thing' is what is left when you take all the materials and reactions away. It cannot exist without those materials and reactions and therefore dies with each individual, unable to float up into the 'ether' or regenerate except through memories in the minds of the living.

Wow between you and her my teaching would be to the highest level. that definition came out of a dictionary. Pretty much where we get most of our definitions. You don't have to like that definition that's okay. I asked a simple question who or what she prays to. You can't duck her use of the word prayer to somehow get around her rationale being the same as for any religion. If that's the case perhaps you forgot what site this is. To answer your question succinctly, no there is no power higher than my puny little body except maybe a bigger body of a real person.

@lerlo Nothing wrong with the definition. It’s a great definition. Did you even read what I wrote?

@SaucyCheryl yes because I could never hope to be at an intellectual level of you and her. Name-calling is a fine attribute to have when your head is where yours is

@WilliamFleming Please see my update above for her response, you can have her for your teacher.

@lerlo She sounds honest and courageous, also intelligent, and she writes well. I could do worse for a teacher.

@WilliamFleming all yours

Did that. We'll see if they answer. However, someone here who believes as she does might be able to explain it to me.

See her response to me in the above update

Thanks. Do you ever ask them why you need to pray? Or ask if both teams pray before the game and one team loses what that means?

@lerlo no I don't ask because I know. Ignorant religious folk pray to win. The educated religious person asks for everyone's safety and "Gods will" be done. Understand that there are many religious people who have no clue what they are doing. The true masters of BS knows exactly what to say to avoid looking dumb. They are use to rebuttals like car salesmen. Dont argue with religious people. You are wasting your time. Lol.

@MrChange believe me I stop hitting my head against the wall long ago.

@MrChange Please see her response to me in the update above. You can add it to your list of explanations people give.

Apparently you didn't see my update. I did ask her and she gave her response. Doesn't necessarily mean that someone who says they're spiritual but not religious couldn't give me their View.

Yes, he subscribes to definition #1 of spiritual so back to the question, what/who does he pray to? and why?

@lerlo Well Harris adheres to a practice of meditation. A practice which does not require anything to pray or meditate to. However I do think prayer can have effects similar to meditation. And you don't have to pray to any divine being or anything for it to be effective. The AA program advocates prayer and it has been shown to be effective. I'm not by any means endorsing this program as it is strongly religious and can be seen to be taking advantage of people in a weak place. But to their credit, they tell non-believers to pray to the ceiling and it seems to be helpful in some cases. The cause can easily be attributed to placebo or mental conditioning, but the point is you don't have to pray to anything for it to affect yourself. I personally believe meditation and prayer
(and psychadelics for some) are more or less just paths to the "apprehension of pure consciousness" as he describes. I think it's important to note the distinction between faith in a practice vs faith in a supernatural force. Prayer and meditation can be approached from either angle, but I would argue the idea of being spiritual becomes much more troublesome when taking the supernatural approach.

@Tattva whatever lets somebody sleep at night however the rationalization seems no different than the rationalization for religion. Praying to the ceiling sounds a lot like praying to some unknown god.

@lerlo What are you even on about? You don't seem to have understood a single point I was making. I regret wasting my time on this when all you can return with is thoughtless jibberish.

I like chocolate ice cream

Do you believe 1 + 1 = 2?

Most 'products of the universe' e.g.humans , animals, insects, viruses bacteria etc trees, flowers food etc are products of chemical reactions triggered by biochemical messengers with no thought of whether the product will be intelligent or not. Intelligence could therefore be a fluke. Machines are a product of Human intelligence and they prolong our existence as long as we do not turn them on ourselves.

Maybe not grapes, but check out blackberries!

@Mcflewster your argument contains an unwarranted assumption, a non sequitur fallacy, and an irrelevant to argument problem. No problem with your last point, though.

@Metahuman Funny. I was about to say a similar thing about Alan Watts' quote, especially about unwarranted assumption, not to mention the fallacy of false analogy.

But then again, as Jesus said, we have the inability to notice the plank in our eyes while we can clearly see the speck in other's.

And no problem with Watt's last point, though.

@AtheistReader ok. On which point should we proceed? How about this. Are you part of the universe? In other words are you of the universe? Are you the universe? Not all of it, but of it? Did you come into the world, or did you come out of it?

@Metahuman As a science protagonist, I like having my assumptions pointed out. Please spell it out for me.

@Mcflewster Okay. Although actually, as I consider my reply, there is more than one unwarranted assumption in what you said..

Just to point out one of them, you're suggesting that because something is a result of chemical reactions that there's no thought involved. Aren't you? Didn't you say that?

Is there a ghost in the machine then? What is there in us, then, that is beyond chemical and electrical reactions to produce thought?

There is nothing here but the universe.

There is thinking here.

Therefore - the universe is thinking.

I'm not normally one to jump on reasoned assertions, I'm not honestly smart enough in that respect, but the stuff Alan Watts is saying up there has left me frowning in bewilderment and trying to connect the dots in his reasoning... To me, it's waffle.

His first point falls down straight away for me: 'If you're intelligent ... you can't be the product of a meaningless universe."

Why not? Why can't intelligence and reasoning emerge as a result of an extremely long process of refinement and necessity? Can he demonstrate that this can't be the case?

Second point: absolutely meaningless. What is this 'figs don't grow on Apple trees?' I assume he's saying that a fig cannot come from an apple tree because an apple tree is set up to produce only apples – am I correct? But an apple tree, like humans and hamsters and rocks, is just one tiny entry on the list of Things A Universe Can Do. Why is it, or me, an 'expression' of the universe? Is he implying an intent to my existence? How does he get to that if so?

Again, apologies for not having quite the intellect to follow philosophical arguments, but as a person who only really has the patience for the demonstrable, his logic seems to be missing some big steps and making some big assumptions along the way.

Could you help me understand his argument?

@Metahuman "there's no thought involved. Aren't you? Didn't you say that?" Yes I did - all it needs is for protons neutrons and elections to get into the configuration they will have for the rest of their stable lives. Some atoms however, are more unstable than others and spontaneously decay.

There may be actions brought about by thought that bring two chemicals together e.sexual intercourse but once those chemicals are within range of each other - usually an intimate distance then there is no thought -it is automatic. Each atom has a low or high affinity for each other atom. it is based on electronic structure within the atom and for that element is immutable. Oxygen atoms have a particularly wide ranging affinity for most other atoms e.g of exception -gold. Neon has not much attraction as all the rare gases. Atoms cannot help but react if they are going to - no thought involved. Thoughts arise in brain atoms because of stimuli observed - massively visual but not exclusively. Neural networks are formed which have inbuilt repeating loops that have chemical help to make them stick i.e are memory stored > These decay if not continually refreshed.

When considering the likelihood of chance events happening e.g. make life on earth, please consider the eons of time that has nothing else to do but elapse until chance happens.

Really do not see the point of saying this below but thanks for trying to make connections.

"There is nothing here but the universe.

There is thinking here.

Therefore - the universe is thinking."

$2, 3 for $7

"Given that I MUST have a higher power to stay sober, I made up my own who loves and guides me, omnipotent, kind, understanding, doesn't divert a car if I step in front of it, but works with everything that happens to me to transform it for good."

Wait. So she admits she made up a god to pray to and she now prays to this thing she admits is make-believe?? I wonder how that sits with her 12-Step leaders. Wouldn't they insist she pray to the Xian god or are they okay with their members just making up their own gods? Why do they insist there MUST be a higher power to pray to at all?

This is so messed up. How do these people justify in their own minds how something like this makes any rational sense whatsoever??

That response opens up so many other questions.

Yep, she is religious....lol

@Sgt_Spanky It is part of the process. I doubt they could get away with having a specific godhead and still get state endorsements (like court ordered). Here is the 12 steps.
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

It's all a bunch of horse puckey, but that's their program.

@PadraicM Wow, what a load of Xian horseshit. They clearly reference the Xain god here so I can't imagine they'd be okay with her making up her own. If nothing else, it violates the first connamdment. .

She sounds like a very courageous and honest person with a lot of intelligence and warmth. Too bad she can’t come onto this forum where she is being maligned and scorned to defend herself. Did she give permission for her message to be aired?

@WilliamFleming tell me her name and I'll let you know Sir Lancelot

@WilliamFleming I don’t think this paragon of atheistic virtue understands the nature of the 12 step programme or worse doesn’t care. I hope no vulnerable people fall into his web of discourteous ignorance

@Sgt_Spanky The AA group (and subsequent programs) are definitely founded from a Xtian perspective. They claim not to be allied with any sect, demonination, and a few other hot button topics. However, I have had some time to read up a bit more and it seems that several "chapters" (no idea of a better term) close with the Lord's Prayer from the Xtian Bible. So it would appear that, despite their claim of neutrality as long as you have a higher power in mind, there are many who still lean heavily towards Xtian. Though many members also say that they are encouraged to find whatever higher power they find suitable. Leave it to the religious to have such double speak.

@PadraicM UGH! Trying to understand religious "logic" makes my brain hurt. I can't believe I used to think this shit made sense.

@Geoffrey51 at least I know that if someone's praying they're religious. And that twelve-step program that cons people into thinking that they have no power over themselves is bullshit because they will be duped every time. Because when it doesn't work they have some other imaginary friend to blame instead of themselves for not taking responsibility for their own actions. Not to mention the people taken in by her comment that she's spiritual-but-not-religious. And no matter what your religious feelings, name calling shows ignorance.

See update above

@SaucyCheryl either way I see no reason to 'pray' about that. As was said who is she praying to?
Also - whatever she is doing - as I said in my comment above 'to me' she is religious......

@SaucyCheryl so you want to argue about what you THINK she means and when someone challenges that - you have nothing? Let me guess you also pray? WHO do you pray to?

@Heidi68 I pray to Zeus, Aphrodite, Jupiter, Loki if I’m being mischievous, Great White Spirit if I’m on a spiritualist trip, Hermes or Mercury depending upon which trip I’m going on, Neptune if I’m on a water voyage and Mithras if I’m feeling particularly belligerent. I draw a line at YHVH though. The one size fits all idea doesn’t work for me. That’s just silly!

@Allamanda When someone shows me a "spirit" or verifiable evidence of one, I'll agree. Til then I'm throwing the BS flag.

@Allamanda Ummm you realize you are in a site called "Agnostics". This tends to be a group of people that do not accept anything without factual evidence so that they may LITERALLY "know" what they are talking about ... right?

Or did you presume "A - gnostic" meant without any knowledge at all?

Why are you participating if you accept things with no evidence?

@Allamanda If you want to discuss the nature and quality of consciousness. That's fine with me and as far as I am concerned, perfectly valid and many concepts are repeatable and demonstrable ....

Until someone starts talking about it leaving a living body and manifesting itself in reality ... that's mystical magical woo-woo bull snort.