What evidence do you have that "ABORTION IS TAKEN LIGHTLY IN THE NEW WOMEN'S LIB ARA"?

@itsmedammit When we say it it totally a woman's choice, that says it all. Once you are pregnant in a civilized society of laws, it is totally not your choice to kill a baby. Who said it is totally ok for a woman to make that choice? Not conservatives. It is the liberals. It is wrong.

@St-Sinner You said "taken lightly". I don't know anyone who views abortions lightly.

It is wrong for a man to force pregnancy and parenthood on a woman.

@itsmedammit
Wanting to do abortions after the first trimester is cruel and taking it lightly. Getting the power of motherhood comes with a responsibility. A woman must always be aware that this can happen and will have to bear responsibility. Exceptions should be available for rape and incest and possibly more but it is not only a woman's choice as it contended each time. What else does Pro-Choice mean? It is the woman's body and it is only the woman's choice?

We as a civilized society must decide what kind of society we want to be. Freedom to do anything?

@itsmedammit, Right Wing Troll from Texas. No need to argue, you would be wasting your time.

@Barnie2years Yeah, I am familiar with him. lol

@Barnie2years Is everybody who disagrees with you a right wing troll?

@St-Sinner Men need to engage in responsible sex.

@itsmedammit Men should but they do not and it will continue. So the answer is women should be allowed to abort randomly? How do you separate responsibilities? You make laws to discuss who was responsible for not wearing the condom? Do you have a solution other than giving women a full choice to abort?

@itsmedammit, @Barnie2years We are not any different from the extreme right wingers. We are extreme left wingers here. Bashing everything on the right. Why are we any better? This is a discussion platform to exchange ideas, not a hate group platform but we are making it one.

@St-Sinner, only the ones with devil horned icons! Or use circular, basically religious arguments with little to back up their position, kind of like religion does. You only want your freedoms to control others respected, not their freedom to choose for themselves. Pro Choice means exactly that, the freedom to make your own decision without some man telling you what you have to do.

@Barnie2years Nobody should have the freedom to do anything they want. Freedom based on humanity, decency and compassion make good laws. Freedom to abort babies just because it is your choice is not one of them. There are rules and laws about everything including school bullying but you do not want any control over abortion?

@St-Sinner, because a fetus is not a baby. If conservatives were a fraction as interested in actual babies as they are in forcing women to be incubators, there would be; universal health care for women and babies, better foster care systems, no separation of immigrant children from their parents, better policing of pedophiles, mandatory vaccinations with no exceptions other than medical, better enforcement of child labor laws just to get started. Before you worry so much about cell clusters that may (miscarriages are still the largest Enders of pregnancy) if left alone become a child, put all that energy into making the already living and breathing children’s lives better!

@Barnie2years
Once the heart starts beating fetus is a baby. It is a human life.

@St-Sinner in your opinion. Bye! You just keep blowing the same smoke and didn’t address the bulk of my question. If that is your belief, then don’t have an abortion. Also, petition your government to allow women, from their first positive pregnancy test, to be able to buy fetal life insurance, and lifetime guaranteed government child support.

@Barnie2years I am making my point just like you are. Fetus is a life or not are just arguments. The medical truth is.. it is a life. The government means other people on the tax paying society. They will not fund irresponsible escapades. Don't even try.

@kodimerlyn You feel I am a troll because you don't agree with me passionately? We have become a hate group of progressives and liberals that bashes the other side no matter what the issue is, sees nothing good on the other side, is incapable of having a healthy discourse and think only my way is highway. Probably that's why. That is not how I became a progressive

Are you saying women can do anything with their pregnancies, can abort in even in the last term? That is evil. I will not abuse you like you did because I am not you. Just remember that and one day ask your parents why that is.

@kodimerlyn
Everything you said is disagreed to by many in the medical community. Now you disagreeing with science does not make you smart, does it?

This debate has been going on for long because this issue is not settled. You believe what you are saying is right while others don't. All others disagreeing with you are not dumb. It only established one fact, you should get some manners coaching that you missed early on.

Women should not be allowed to abort at their whim or choice. Being born a woman is a very special privilege and it cannot be abused.

While the issue is settled, I recommend strict abstinence for your types.

WHY does motherhood have "high sanctity"?
Are you aware many women do not even know they are pregnant in the first trimester?
And that a fetus cannot feel pain until the 3rd trimester anyways? What is your objection to 2nd trimester abortions based on?

@demifeministgal
Because women grow the baby inside them, they nourish them, take care of them, go through labor, go through pain, take care of the young often without a man around and intimately care of the young and after they are grown. There are songs and stories written about mother's love. It is most unselfish and unparalleled to any other love. It should be taken seriously. I don't even want women to have sex, smoke, drink or take the trouble to go church during pregnancy

There are varying medical opinions on the issue and it is not settled. I say that keep all abortions on hold until we all agree. How's that?

@kodimerlyn Not to mention, scientists have managed to create beating hearts on their own. IF humans are nothing more than hearts, does that mean those engineered hearts cannot be killed? Not to mention, in the medical community, someone that is brain dead is considered legally dead. A fetus with no developed brain would not be a living person yet. I would say our personhood lies in our brains, not in our beating hearts. But good luck explaining that to a moronic Texan bible belter. heh

@demifeministgal You should be arguing with the medical community. This too important an issue to not take seriously and allow too much freedom on.

@St-Sinner The medical community does not agree with you though. If a person on life support with a beating heart is deemed as clinically dead, why would a fetus with no brain or an underdeveloped brain, be considered a living person?
This thought of life beginning with a heartbeat is not accepted in the medical field because they unplug the beating hearts of humans everyday when they are determined to have no thought. You do need a beating heart to have thought but a beating heart without thought is not a human that is the process of being - it's a biological mass with the potential to become a being.

@demifeministgal It is very controversial. Therefore, I proposed a total ban on abortions until we all agree. Not ok?

@St-Sinner Nope. You have no skin in the process. So it is easy for YOU to say to put all abortions on hold, you stand to lose nothing. A pregnancy can and often does negatively impact a woman's health and can lead to the death of each woman. Now if you were able to become pregnant yourself, your opinion may change.

@demifeministgal Whaat? Can you make a baby alone - naturally?

@St-Sinner I am just glad we are in separate countries and my country allows unrestricted abortions... I would need to escape if I lived in bible belt Murica... yikes! strength to non-religious women stuck in that area. :/

@St-Sinner Can cis-men get abortions? No. That is what I meant. You have no skin to lose in an abortion restriction.

@demifeministgal One day the world will see the light and think is it is not right to kill a life that depends on you, I am hoping.

@St-Sinner No, one day people will see the light and realize a woman's right to bodily autonomy matters and that we shall not grant special privileges to clumps of cells that we do not grant any other autonomous person. If a living person cannot use your body for survival against your will, than neither should a fetus be granted that right. Your special pleading fallacy is noted.

@demifeministgal You get pregnant because a man helped you become it. How can the decision be solely yours? What are we men? Sex objects or potted plants?

@St-Sinner Any man I have sex will know about my decision to remain childFREE so, if he abandons his right to autonomy when it is feasible for a man, aka before pregnancy occurs, that is his fault. Any man who is anti-choice ("pro-life" ) and decides to have sex with me has nobody to blame but himself. But then, I have these grown up discussions with partners prior to having sex. Cannot speak for those with high sex drives and in the hookup culture/prone to getting drunk/high and having reckless sex.

@demifeministgal See that is the problem. You may have answered my question constructively. We can not regulate some while we don't others. A law has to be applied to all on the topic. The cavalier attitude about sex and not taking responsibility for it is at the heart of the issue.

@St-Sinner Consider this thought experiment.... if you are honest with yourself, you would choose the baby... no alternative options, either one or the other!

@demifeministgal You are giving me a false choice. Dont do that. Be kind.

@St-Sinner Deflecting.... no such thing as a false choice.

@demifeministgal I want to break the rule, keep both and go to jail.

@St-Sinner OR rather, you refuse to address the hypothetical question as it is put forth to you because you refuse to be honest with yourself. Fair enough.

@demifeministgal Hypothetical? It is like living a nightmare and a dream that wake me up sweating. How could you?

@NoPlanetB A man is still the father of the child. From the commentary I see around the subject this is never discussed. I agree it is a female decision but not to acknowledge the man’s psychological perspective seems like the militant feminism of the 70’s.

@GodlessMimi They are impacted psychologically. I am not saying that men should make any decision on the mother’s decision. I am pointing out that a male psychological perspective is not considered.

@GodlessMimi, @NoPlanetB Sorry the comment is better read as female rather than ‘feminist’

@Geoffrey51 maybe he should have considered wearing a condom...or keeping it in his pants?

@AnneWimsey maybe.

@Geoffrey51 See my comment above for more details but in my opinion, if the man has impregnated a woman without her consent, he should be held responsible for that. His responsibility lies before the question of abortion comes into play where he actually has control over what he is doing.

@UpsideDownAgain not saying it isn’t but there are some cases where men are effected emotionally. Of. Ourselves it is a woman’s decision, I am not denying that for one moment, but in some cases men require some emotional support as well. Other considerations which don’t acknowledge that are heading for the resurgence of feminist militancy.

I understand it is a sensitive issue but one that is not only I’ll-considered but vilified as shown here.

Forever men have imposed their will over women. Finally, we are getting a say on what should be an automatic right to our own body and Now you want to lay a guilt trip on us.

We have no right to impose our will on what anyone else does with their body and there's an end to it.

@MsDemeanour Not at all. No guilt trip intended. Just saying there is another side. Not all men are abusive predators!

@Geoffrey51 oh god i know that! I spelled out to my sons as teens just what would be the consequences and their responsibilities if they got someone pregnant. I told them to never believe a girl who said she was on the pill and to take responsibility for contraception.

I'm now thinking that a 'surprise' pregnancy wouldn't be such a bad thing because I would love to be a grandma and nothing seems likely on the horizon in the near future.

Why yes! Yes, men should be included in the conversation. Hey, how about this? End the toxic masculinity plaguing our nation. Let's see more dialogue engaging our young men and boys in how to acknowledge and deal with emotions. Let's tell them it's ok to do and say and be without fear of breaking out of the tight prison we force them into so they can be ridiculed and tagged as gay.
Let's see a louder social discourse on how females are people too and that bodily autonomy is a thing. Let's educate them about sex and male and female bodies and how they really work outside religious strictures and pornhub.
The ignorance of many men is EPIC. What's maddening is that despite the ability to fix it, the toxic males who grew up in the toxicity are providing the worst example for our young men now.

@GodlessMimi ain't that the truth????!!!!

@GodlessMimi There is a line between admirable self-sacrifice to save the group...and deciding everyone in the group (or everyone in another group) must die. Generally it seems Christianity often blurs that line.

Important to realise that we are not talking here about any directives from any god. This is Bronze Age desert/Mediterranean culture.

Pretty much standard practice to obliterate an enemy that is in the way of your pet project!

Pretty fucking violent and murderous. This stuff is bad as many horror movies in recent decades.

you don't think that the world is already overpopulated with humans and that they might be doing the world a favour. I am certainly against abortions for polar bears and koalas because they're endangered but there is nothing special about humans.....they're everywhere.

@MsDemeanour nah, we can sustain even 10 bi with current state technology, the problem is that we are uneven, we waste resources and the logistic infrastructure is in average very bad.
Plus, there are other more efficient ways of population control other than abortion, this discussion is not about it. I I was thinking about not having kids I would rather do a vasectomy for instance.

@Pedrohbds In just 30 yrs the world will have a population of near 10 billion. What do you propose then?

@MsDemeanour I suggest let people do their own choice. Besides we already broke Malthusian scaling of resources many times. Even if we do not do it now, what can we do? Forcefully sterilize people? Do like China and say 1 kid per person? (it did not work).
Anyway, birth rates are falling in all places, maybe we need only one more Malthusian break and we will achieve an equilibrium anyway.

@vjohnson51
Still, with out him - there wouldn’t have been a pregnancy.
It was a crappy thing to do to him though.

@vjohnson51 Obviously I don't have any proof, but I found it very coincidental that my brother's wife became pregnant every time they were considering divorce.

@kiramea He could have used a condom.

@Allamanda No, that's not what I said.

@Allamanda Well, you are trapped in a loop here and there is nothing I can do about that. Once again, that's not what I am saying. Of course it's your choice to read it the way you want to read it.

More comfortable for the fetus? What do you mean? Are you aware a fetus cannot feel pain until the end of the 2nd trimester or beginning of the 3rd trimester? And that the vast majority of abortions occur within the first trimesters of pregnancy?

@demifeministgal There is strong evidence that fetuses feel pain quite a bit earlier than that and even that they might feel pain more intensely than fully developed humans do due to a lack of pain inhibitors until later in their development. This is supported not only by the response fetuses demonstrate within the womb as seen on ultrasound but also by hormone levels and higher doses of anesthetic needed for in utero surgeries. The idea that fetus' can't feel pain is a convenient one for abortion doctors but isn't supported enough by evidence to not take precautions. If we are going to err in this area, for the sake of our humanity, it is best to err in being overly cautious.

@UpsideDownAgain I do not know what outdated sources you gather your mis-information from, but allow me to provide you with up-to-date factual science:
""What we can say about the fetal nervous system is that based on the best science we have" on the neurons that carry pain signals is that the "system isn't developed until the third trimester of pregnancy," Davis told Live Science....

researchers highlighted several key points in fetal development that are required in order for a fetus to perceive pain. One is that the receptors in the skin that sense an injury must be developed. Research has shown that this happens between 7.5 and 15 weeks of pregnancy, depending on the location of the receptors on the body, according to the review. For example, receptors in the skin around the mouth develop at around 7.5 weeks, whereas receptors in the skin on the abdomen develop at around 15 weeks, according to the review.

Second, the neurons in the spinal cord that transmit that signal up to the brain must be developed. Researchers who looked at fetal tissues reported that this happens at around 19 weeks, the review said.

Third, the neurons that extend from the spinal cord into the brain need to reach all the way to the area of the brain where pain is perceived. This does not occur until between 23 and 24 weeks, according to the review.

Moreover, the nerves' existence isn't enough to produce the experience of pain, the authors wrote in their review. Rather, "These anatomical structures must also be functional," the authors wrote. It's not until around 30 weeks that there is evidence of brain activity that suggests the fetus is "awake."

Davis noted that while these time frames aren't exact — some fetuses may develop a little earlier, and some fetuses may develop a little later — "there isn't any science to suggest that those pathways [for pain] are complete around the 20th week" of pregnancy. "

[livescience.com]

@demifeministgal The evidence that fetuses feel pain before 23 weeks is practically air tight. It comes from premature babies born at 21 and 22 weeks who demonstrate every indication of pain the same as adults, except as I said, that there is some indication that they might feel pain more intensely. So any study stating that fetuses don't feel pain previous to 23 weeks is erroneous.

Around 40 years ago, doctors would tell parents that infants didn't feel pain; the screaming and struggling was just an instinctive reaction to being held down. They would do painful procedures on babies with no pain relief. They had all the evidence they needed to know that the babies were feeling pain but ignored it because it was beneficial to them.

The evidence that unborn fetuses feel pain is also strong. It's colored, though, by the question of abortion. Those arguing that they feel pain are virtually always arguing against abortion while those who argue that they don't, are arguing for abortion. Since we can't conclusively say that they aren't feeling pain, why wouldn't we offer fetuses some possible relief? The answer is in the fact that the more human a fetus seems, the less likely women are to have abortions and that means a financial hit for abortion doctors.

Unfortunately, if we have to sacrifice truth for our agenda, then we can never come to any real solutions to the problems we face. Instead of debating whether babies feel pain or not, we could be discussing ways to better avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place, things like male birth control pills, males being held more responsible for their sexual choices, and women having better access to birth control options that will work for them. When you benefit monetarily from abortions, you aren't motivated to have those discussions.

@Veteran229 because she didn't get pregnant all by herself. If a woman gets punished for ending an unwanted pregnancy, the man should also get punished for ejaculating in an irresponsible manner

@Veteran229 Since when is the guy punished? A woman gets pregnant (it doesn't matter how, just that it took her and a man to make the baby). When the woman finds out she's pregnant, she essentially has three choices: 1) have the baby and raise it, 2) have the baby and give it up for adoption, or 3) abort. Two of those choices has the woman carrying the baby for nine months.

The man on the other hand usually does one of three things: 1) take responsibility and pays child support, 2) denies the baby is his and the woman has to decide whether or not to take him to court (which by the way cost money that the woman probably doesn't have), or 3) disappears never to be seen again.

No where I see where the man is punished other then his perceived humiliation when taken to court. Take away abortion, then the choices the woman has are still three, however the abortion is a lot more dangerous being that it is a back-room abortion.

Now, let's take into account that the woman was raped, or contraception didn't work. The woman is still demonized and called a slut while the man (if the man's name is even stated) usually is congratulated and called a stud. If it is incest, then sometimes the perp is punished, but not all the time. Speaking of incest, how is it the 10yr old's fault for getting pregnant? News flash.... it isn't.

Like I said in the original post; it takes two to make a baby. Both can say no, however it's always the woman's fault with a pregnancy occurs. I am sick and fucking tired of hearing that a woman needs to be virginal, that she needs to keep her legs closed; but the man is always suppose to have "experience" and is expected to have numerous liaisons. A woman is expected to always be on birth control, but the few reliable birth control available to men is looked at hindering his experience.

You want abortion to be illegal? Fine. Have parallel laws stating that if a single woman gets pregnant she has to name the father. The father then has to prove he isn't the father (I believe DNA testing can be done while the child is still in the womb), or immediately start paying for prenatal and child support. If refused, then have him criminally charged (don't ask me what the charge is since it isn't criminal at this time). The burden should not fall completely on the woman's shoulder.

That’s interesting, why the fourth month?

@Geoffrey51 I was never told why they (centuries ago) determined it was the fourth month. I surmised that they thought the fetus wasn't well enough developed to host the human spirit.

@mischl Sounds like a pretty sound assumption doesn’t it.

There is nothing "miraculous" about pregnancy or childbirth.
It is actually the most dangerous time in any pregnant woman's life.
Could we PLEASE stop romanticizing it?

Yes it is the most dangerous time that is why we rejoice when it works.
humans have difficult childbirth, probably a byproduct of upright walking.
I am told in medieval times a woman ran at 1 in 3 chance of dying in every labor.
I hold to the premise each birth is a miracle.

@m16566 Knock yourself out.

Actually when you take your first breath.

@jlynn37 Correct, and this is because of the belief that your breath comes form god. Breath is that elusive "soul" that so many talk about.

@K9Kohle789, I believe one of the reasons this site is named Agnostic.com rather than Atheists.com is because it is a place where you can explore your questions on faith. Don’t let those who feel entitled to not question their lack of faith intimidate you from raising questions and seeking answers!

I like the comparison with pulling the plug. It's a difficult decision to make but in the end it is good to know pain has ended.

I agree with you.

Well said!

@K9Kohle789 I think it is partly the timing factor ... maybe the millions of sperm vs one egg - and why does a man need to be responsible?

I don't think any man has a right to an opinion on the subject.

I would say almost nobody uses abortion as birth control... that is a religious and conservative talking point but has no basis in reality.

I like the allegory of the Oak tree. We as humans have decided sort of collectively that nothing should die. Not us, not animals, not plants. But nature cannot support the life of every single thing that sprouts or is born, so many must die. That is one of the fundamental tenets of religion, if you must die (yes, you must!) it promises you continuous life, but on another level. For many, it is the only way they can get through the idea of their own limited existence. For Atheists generally, we accept our limited roles on Earth and do our best to leave fond memories of us behind, or for some, just don’t give a shit and enjoy the life you have!

My like is for Christopher Hitchens and others who aren't afraid to speak out.

My youngest is 20 and still a bloody parasite! He lives at home, contributes nothing, eats my food, uses my utilities and takes up a heap of space. He is at least amusing which is why I keep him. The day he no longer amuses me, I'll get the fly swatter out and flick him out.