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We so often learn far too late than the heroes of history were actually horrible people, and the so-called villainous monsters, bad guys, and no-good thugs were good.

Edison was a greedy scheming thief, yet we learn of his "achievements" while Tesla gets a minor footnote, Oda Nobunaga nearly achieved total peace in the warring states era before he was savagely betrayed and painted a monsterly villain, Columbus has a holiday named after him for his grand ability of landing in the wrong land and beginning a genocide, Aaron Burr is named a traitor to America when Hamilton's the reason we have a misguided corrupt political system in place by helping Jefferson win (and don't get me started on Jefferson)

It makes me wonder, honestly.

How many more out there have stories that are misguided and misrepresented? Why does it take so long for truth to be set free?

I hate that we live in a world where the winner decides the stories we tell.

LadyAlyxandrea 8 Sep 11
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35 comments

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1

We make heroes out of high achievers and gods out of heroes. Then we are suddenly surprised when they turn out to have feet of clay. The phrase "He was no saint" is oft-quoted. If you read about the lives of saints you will find that they were not too nice either. For all their faults they leave there mark on history. You have a constitution however much flawed because of Jefferson.
Does it really matter if Martin Luther King's wife used to "fall down" a lot?
Our own British hero Churchill has his statue in the houses of parliament. Only one of of 3 commoners ever to have received a full state funeral. Yet many on the left would vilify him. He was a racist political dinosaur. If he had had his way it would have been the British that would have 1st dropped chemical weapons on the Kurds in Iraq. Yet his oratory and strength of purpose were exactly what my country required at its moment of need. On balance, the world was much better off for having him around. That's about the best you can say of anyone

Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment.

@Archeus_Lore You and I use words like "fiance" because nearly 1,000 years ago William of Normandy invaded England. Any moral judgments of him, his personal life or reasons would seem rather superfluous now.
And no, you cannot say that the world was better off for having Hitler in it

Don't talk about Churchill to any Aussies who fought at Gallipoli or had relatives who fought there my friend.
The whole Gallipoli campaign (SLAUGHTER) was his idea and so the blood from the Anzac soldiers who died there will ALWAYS be on his hands.

The 'beloved' Pommie Hero, Churchill also wanted to abandon Australia to the Japanese in W.W.II simply because HE wanted OUR soldiers to FIGHT ONLY on the European and African Fronts and the lands that were more lucrative to England and Australian Prime Minister, Pig-Iron Bob, Menzies was in total agreement with Churchill. Luckily, Menzies got outed, we got a TRUE Aussie Prime Minister who stood up and told Churchill NO.

@273kelvin Yes I can say it, if I want to, and who are you to stop me? But more pointedly, I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that "any German" could. The harshness of the Treaty of Versallies would be more than enough for many of Hitler's contemporaries to justify everything he did, without hesitation, all based off of the German recovery and punishment of those who presided over the enforcement of the Treaty of Versallies. In fact, many of the German survivors of World War II still held Hitler in just as high regard as some Englishmen hold for Churchhill. One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding.

@Triphid Ah yes the Gallipoli myth. If you look a little closer at the history of it without prejudice. You will discover that Churchill wanted it to be a naval campaign only. (He was 1st sea lord at the time) It was Churchills bitter rival lord Kitchener that pushed for its expansion into a land battle. However, Kitchener died at sea (strange irony there) and they could not make a scapegoat out of a dead hero so Churchill took the fall. He may have been responsible for many dreadful things but I think that that was not one of them.

@273kelvin Churchill was told repeatedly that the Gallipoli Campaign ( Slaughter) was a terrible idea both from the Land Invasion and from the Sea perspective as well.
An Australian submarine, yes we had them during WWI btw, was sunk in the Straits near Gallipoli BECAUSE Churchill sent it in there and REFUSED to send Minesweepers in first, the entire crew was lost with the submarine, so add that to the list of Anzacs SLAUGHTERED at Gallipoli and blatant Pommie arrogance and mis-management.
Btw, the Gallipoli Slaughter IS NOT a 'Myth' it IS a 100% dyed in the wool FACT just as the slaughter of countless Anzacs used as cannon fodder by the Poms during WWI in Europe and even as many during WWII in Europe, Africa and S.E. Asia as well.
I lost 5, count them FIVE, relatives from BOTH sides of my family at Gallipoli and NONE were killed by Turkish fire, they died from disease preventable by the Poms IF they gave them adequate nutrition and clothing.
I had 2 Uncles who fought in WWII, ONE was a Rat Of Tobruk, the other fought first in New Guinea on the Kokoda Track and then through the islands, neither ever had a good word to say about the Pommie Army, etc,

@OwlInASack Did I say that? You are putting words in my mouth. Does not seem likely you read the posts before my last either. "Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment." "I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that 'any German' could." "One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding." So does not reading the whole thread.

There is nothing wrong with using "old" expressions, in fact, you just used one yourself, and I could call that a "line". This is a feeble attempt to paint what I said with negative connotation. Obviously, it failed, because you used the very same type of expression yourself. Laughable attempt . . . . . you would have been much more respected had you admitted that it was clearly and unambiguously an attempt to put words in my mouth . . .
.
"The harshness of Versailles would justify the holocaust?" Tell me, where exactly did I mention the holocaust before? The fact is, I didn't, you brought it up, and attempted to tie it in with what I said. It is an assumption that I have a certain opinion about something that I never mentioned, and, you know what they say about assumptions, how's that for another old expression?

@Triphid I apologize if I gave the impression that the whole debacle was a myth. What I obviously meant was that it could be all laid at Churchills's feet. Subsequently released archives have cast new light on the affair.

@Triphid, @OwlInASack Btw my father was a submariner in WW2 in the Indian ocean. He had nothing but praise to say about the Australians but less than enthusiastic in regard to the yanks.

@273kelvin The Aussie soldiers had a name for the Yank troops, they called them "Overs" because they were Over-paid, Overfed. Oversexed and Over Here.

@Triphid Same here

@273kelvin They also coined another, less kindly, name for the Yanks, which still is in use here today at times, Seppos = Septic Tanks which rhymes with Yanks and as with Septic Tanks nothing good ever comes out them.
Though having said that I must say that I have quite a few very decent and good American friends on this site, so to them I apologise and say that we relies that NOT all Yanks fit that description.

@Triphid Although obviously not an American. My dad may have fallen into the over-sexed and over here category.
Near the end of the war (post VE), it was decided that the British and US fleets would combine operations in the Indian ocean. Dad was a radio operator and the Brits banged out morse code using the old fashioned method. Whereas the yanks typed theirs out as it was faster. Consequently, he was sent to Perth along with a dozen others to learn how to type in the Australian equivalent of the Pitman school. They were billeted in an old rope works with hammocks strung up. Can you imagine a dozen jolly jack tars in a secretarial school? He said to me "Son if I said that I spent one night in that rope works? I would be lying"

@273kelvin Yes, and like most 'visiting' troops they 'plowed the furrow, planted the seed and then went on their merry way' with little or no though as to what the resultant 'crop' would yield.

@Triphid Well there was a war on.
I love Spike Milligan's take on it. "The war was a great time for ugly people. You would get some guy that looked like a greek adonis lusting after a fat smelly NAFFE girl with a mustache and waxing lyrical as is she as Venus de Milo. Because she was the only woman around for miles"

@273kelvin ah yes, War the perfect excuse for men to chase around other countries, dip their wicks into anything in a skirt or looks remotely female and conveniently FORGET they have wives or girlfriends waiting for them back home.

13

Another that is annoying is mother theresa... who became a goddam saint.... she let kids and the poor suffer because she thought it brought them closer to god.... yet when she became ill, she got herself medical treatment! fckng hypocrite and if you say any critical truth about her, people become outraged and offended on her behalf... morons :/

mother theresa, the butcher bitch of Calcutta yet another the 'saints' made by the Catholic Church who were, in reality, true mongrel Bastards of the First Order.

11

I find it a scary thing to think of how history is taught in schools. And yes, the winner always writes the history and that is why it is so flawed. Children in US schools aren't really taught much about how we took land away from the Natives. Basically what is taught is THanksgiving and everyone being nicey nicey and them boom - Natives start attacking settlers. As far as slavery what is taught is that we had slavery, we had the Civil War, We had reconstruction and everything was then just peachy keen. Very little is said about Jim Crow and then nothing about how discrimination keeps happening. Also womens rights...... I could go on and on and I truly feel that is why we have the mess in our country - kids are taught fairy tales.

Do you know much about the civil rights subject? I ask because it is going to be part of my studies shortly and I'd love to find out what Americans have on the subject.

@Sofabeast I guess I'm more knowledagable about civil rights for blacks in our country than I am on the women's movement, sad to say. Read about Frederick Douglass by David Blight (won a Pulitzer prize) Also Douglass wrote his autobiography, more than one in fact. Other good books are Separate by Stephen Luxemberg, and Stony the Road by Henry Louis Gates which deal with Reconstruction after the Civil War. Another great one coming into more modern times is The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein

@AmelieMatisse Thank you for that, we will be reading civil rights - mostly for black civil rights from 1945-1992, but a wee bit of feminism too. I'll try to find out if those books are available over here. Very interesting at the moment that we are also covering US politics - thanks to Brexit (we are meant to be doing the EU and the result of Brexit, but we have not left yet)

@Sofabeast good luck in your country too! You also have a mess on your hands

8

I have been reading Howard Zinn's, "A People's HIstory of the United States," and it has opened my eyes. Many of our most celebrated heroes were not very nice people and did some very nasty things to others. It amazes me, the difference between the history we learned in school and how it actually happened. For instance, I never knew that thousands of our citizens died during the early 1800's when they went on strike to complain of pay so low it did not buy them enough to eat or that Andrew Jackson was such an ass, and a dangerous one at that. I highly recommend this book to any one who is brave enough to learn our true history.

This definitely will be on my reading list. Thank you.

Thanks for recommending this. I’ve added it to my Amazon cart.

@enchanter Thanks for the recommendation

@AmelieMatisse You're welcome!

@AmelieMatisse, @Gypsy494 You're welcome!

8

One of my favorite books is Lies My Teacher Told Me, written by a History professor. In the beginning of the book, he decried having to deprogram students and started them out with an writing assignment to describe their favorite historical figure, and then, in many cases, he would point out reasons why they might wish to reconsider. At the end of the book, he blamed the publishing industry for how it chose to release textbooks. If, for an example, you wrote a history book that was factually accurate, at the expense of so many innaccurate texts in circulation, you'd face an uphill battle in getting it published, out of supposed concern for disrupting standards. Yeah, it's a known problem with no solution on the horizon.

8

As a professional historian, I can say that there is truth in what you write, but scholarship continues to evolve. One of the problems is how to communicate the scholarship to broader audiences. Subaltern studies, gender studies, revisionist work is available but is frequently not read beyond specialists.

7

We are all raised with this idea that there are "good" and "bad" people, that the dichotomy is black and white, you can only fall into one category or the other. The truth is that no such dichotomy exists, we only pretend it does because it's metaphysically beneficial for society to do so.

I would challenge your assumption that heroes and villains exist at all, because what we believe someone to be is relative to what we want for ourselves.

6

The victor writes the history... None of us are truly totally good or evil as what is good or evil is subjective.
Right now in the UK there is a drive to drag Churchill down as a criminal against humanity as evil as Hitler. But without his input at a crucial time, those people who complain about him are likely to have never been born without him.
In the end, everything has a cost, and for heroes that is often their reputation.

6

I grew up reading and learning about the strong leaders of history. I felt I grew up in the wrong era as I wanted to be an Alexander the Great, a Caesar... A Hernan Cortez... I wanted adventure and to conquer something. I read up on these and others.. Life on the high seas in the 15th and 16th centuries. Now all the exploration and conquering had been done and I missed out.

It wasn't until years and years later that it really started coming out (Or perhaps I started paying attention to it) that these were figures who felt there was no value to the human lives they took. They all committed atrocities to further themselves. Alexander and Caesar literally slaughtered whole countries. Cortez and his men brought Small Pox to the new world that killed off up to 95% of the indigenous people.

The true story eventually comes out.

BTW... I am a direct descendent of William Van Ness, Aaron Burr's Second in his duel with Hamilton. My middle Name is Van Ness for this reason.

@Donotbelieve 😉

5

While you are viewing this from a national.com/ international point of view , things also work this way on the very personnel level . How many out there , have dated / married someone with a horrible story about their ex . , only to learn later that the half of the story you'd been given either left out some vital information , or was just a pile of lies from beginning to end ?

@Cast1es that for sure is a true statement!

True that.

I met a girl called Pam who told me horrible stories about her ex. About the same time or just a little later I met a guy called Paul. It took me a year to link the two people into one.
PS. I now have nothing to do with Pam b/c as you may have guessed she is a lying narcissist.

5

To the victor goes the spoils. To curry favor with who ever is in power is the bottom line. We see it play out every figging day with trump!
If you have a parent that questions what you are learning in school it really helps. My Dad told me about Tesla and his contribution to so much we take for granted today. Yeah, Edison my ass!
The down side was I loathed school mostly because I did not trust what I was being told and in the 60's google was not yet available.

In my school we were taught all about Edison and what a magnificent man he was, and not once was tesla mentioned. I didn't even know of tesla until I was an adult, nor of Edison's cruelty and scheming. It was shocking. That's when I started looking into some other "historical heroes" and learning truth. That no one is what our history says they are.

Even Ghandi was a jerk.

@LadyAlyxandrea Martin Luther Kings wife used to walk into a lot of doors

5

I don't understand why we feel the need to trash one and glorify the other when in reality we didn't met the actual person. We don't know their troubles to accomplish what they did. Why can't we take the good from both stories?

5

I find it interesting that very flawed people can do wonderful things. Albert Einstein seems to have been a poor husband to his first wife. Woody Allen, at the very least, seems to have been awful to Mia Farrow. Michael Jackson. Bill Clinton. Is it specifically men? I don't know, but it makes me wonder--were I in the position of power that these men were in, would I act better than they did? I hope so.

4

"To the victor goes the spoils" "King of the Hill" "Survival of the Fittest" These are terms that denote life in society today. Elections, sports and a list of so many other things that are a part of our daily existence. Where would we be without them? I often wonder how much chaos would ensue if the truth could be known?

4

Unfortunately your last line is the truth. The winner always decides the story. This is why some in power are tyrants. If they are winners to most people they look good in the end.

4

Even this article is likely slanted in his favor, as from what I have heard, he did just as much, if not more, to instigate world war II . . . . [independent.co.uk]

DAMN!! I really did not know Churchill was so cruel and frankly quite ignorant. I realize he was a product of his up bring and early beliefs, still no excuse.

While I am not disavowing the article, I will suggest we take a breath before biting off on the written word. I have personal experience with renderings on podcasts and TV, as well as in articles and books that were by and large complete falsehoods yet the general public consumed them as absolute truth. Even if parcels were true, facts were intentionally laid aside which tainted what was actually true.

3

The information is there. You just have to dive into it. Which means read, read, read!

3

I don't believe I've ever had a "hero"?

If I had a paper to write about someone I admired it was usually about someone I knew really well. Who had managed through some interesting times.

Those are the people I have admiration for.

Not showboats. Just not the way I'm programmed.

3

Understand that we are all humans, be inspired by the good parts and observe the bad parts to improve should be the learn from history.

Repeat the good parts avoiding the bad ones, so accept that heroes are humans and achieve a state of mind where you do not need heroes, but you seek for examples of good deeds to follow and bad ones to avoid.

3

History is ONLY written by the Winners and those who backed them, BUT never by the Losers.
I often ponder over who/what will write the History Humankind after we are all dead and gone.

History is written by winners, losers, and usually by people who didn't have a horse in that race.

@GarytheGondolier I was talking about REAL History here and REAL History IS always written by the Winners.
For example, Did the Incas get to write their side of the Spanish Conquistador Invasion/Slaughter?
How about the Native American Indians then, ever read anything telling THEIR side of the Genocide committed against them by the Non-Indigenous Americans?
No IS the answer to both examples BECAUSE they were the losers, well except for when the Sioux Nations kicked Custer's arse firmly and squarely up between his ears NUT then WHITE American History always has painted them as the Bad Guys and Custer, who attacked a peaceful village full of old people, women and children early in the piece, is painted as the Hero.

2

Most idols have feet of clay. The public persona is rarely reality. As much as I admired JFK and intellect, he was a S.O.B. who took advantage of and used women. Jimmy Carter gave a Central American right-wing dictator, who was abusing his people, millions of dollars to suppress them under the guise of fighting communism. Eisenhower forced out a democratically elected president of Guatemala and replaced him with a right-wing military dictatorship. So, it would seem the more one knows about our heros, the less they seem to deserve that status.

2

Tesla has always been one of my favorites and I have read and watch many things about him!

2

That Dude named Adolf Hitler took the Young, Defeated Country of Germany, the Scapegoat of WWI and turned it into a Military Juggernaut in less than a Decade. He had a Social Program were you give 6 months of your Youth to the Mother Land and in exchange you were treated to all kinds of Positive Perks during those 6 months... Please do Not Accuse me of Pro Nazi... I am just noticing History. Even "Bad Guys" loved Someone Real Good!!! There was that American pro football hero named OJ Simpson. That baseball hero nicknamed "Charlie Hustle" Pete Rose... I can continue... just right now we are hearing of the "annoying" antonio brown accused of Rape. It will never end!!!

2

Edison is the first one to come to mind when I read the first sentence.

Edison, ghandi, columbus...those were my first three "heroes of history" that turned out to be jerks.

2

I believe that in quite a few cases the truth wasn't even recorded, what got recorded was course of events altered as per the whims of those with control and authority. Also back it up with the human mentality of winner being a proclaimed hero, we get a 'history' where blame rests with the vanquished.

Personally, I feel that most so called 'villains' are creations of perspectives.

1

NIXON WAS INNOCENT!!
Well, maybe not but I remember the great writer Alister Cooke explaining that to the historian it is not what actually happened that is important but what is believed to have happened at the time. This was in the context of the Boston tea party. It matters little that it may well have been just a drunken mob and the British soldiers were merely defending themselves. It was the spin of the event that helped fire up the revolution.
Hypothetically, if subsequent papers were to reveal that Nixon was the victim of an elitist plot, it would matter naught. The taint on the republican party that led to the election of Jimmy Carter would still be the historical significance of the event and the use of "gate" to describe political scandals.

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