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In the UK, a woman supporting the opposition party to Boris Johnson's government commented on Facebook that he deserved to be in intensive care with COVID-19 (she hates him and that's for sure). As a result, she was kicked out of her party and she has now been fired by a law firm, her employer. Her free speech cost her both her membership and her job.

Free speech comes with responsibility and consequence. Agree or disagree?

(Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. Wikipedia)

Jetty 7 Apr 10
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26 comments

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8

Even in the United States, where freedom of speech is in the first article of our constitutional bill of rights, it's not freedom from the consequences of that speech. The government can't arrest you, but you can certainly be fired if your employer doesn't want to be associated with your comments.

JimG Level 8 Apr 10, 2020
7

Can't speak (see what I did there ? ) for the UK, but in the US, 'free speech' ONLY applies wrt what the government can't do. It does NOT apply otherwise (political parties and private industry).

4

I think the employer and the party (depending on her role in the party) had every right to jettison her, if the employment and membership in the party required a certain level of decorum in public. Such decorum possibly could have been implicitly understood, given whatever positions she had.

4

We tend to forget that free speech is not a universally given right in every country. In the U.S. we enjoy that right more than other countries, and we have the courts to remedy any infringement on that right. However with conservative judges being appointed by our current president, and Mitch McConnell pushing them through, that also will change in the future. We are slowly losing our rights, especially if you are a minority.

Are you serious right now? About losing rights by the hand of conservatives? What rights are we talking about? Please enlighten me.

It was Democrats who opposed civil rights for minorities. It is the Democrats who deny unborn chikdren the right to life. Its Democrats who always want to raise taxes and steal from working tax payers to give to those who don't work. Its Democrats who are consistently and constantly trying to abolish the 2nd Amendment. Its the hypocritical Democrats who say they support the 1st Amendment but only do so if you agree with them. I could go on, if you would like....

@ArtemisDivine It was racist Southern Democrats, united with Republicans nationwide, who opposed the Civil Rights Act. It was the Democrats under Lyndon Johnson who actually passed it. This is an incredibly tired Republican talking point. Those same racist Southern democrats went on to convert into the racist Republicans who formed the core of Nixon's "Southern strategy", and they and their descendants largely remain racist Republicans unto this day. Get your history right.

The rest of your post is really unworthy of response, but... "unborn children" are embryos with no conscious brain activity? So, when do they qualify as alive? Get me a scientific (as opposed to religious) consensus as then let's talk about the "right to life". Meanwhile, Democrats will continue to support a progressive income tax and a living wage, so that people who are already born can support their already living children, something Republicans don't seem to care about.

Name me a single gun control law passed during the Obama administration. It's a trick question- there wasn't one. In fact, he signed a law guns to be carried in national parks. [thoughtco.com] Pretty strong steps to abolish the 2nd amendment there, eh?

Yes, it's the hypocritical Democrats who are constantly trying to restrict what we can see on TV and in the movies and on the internet because it's obscene, anti-Christian and un-American. No, wait, that's the Republicans again.

Want to go again? I'm here all week....

@Paul4747 I admit there is debate as to whether there was a party flip between Democrats and Republicans but what I did find was after the civil rights movement some Southern Democrats turned Republican.

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Unborn children are worthy of discussion, sir. They are our future. End of week 5 and beginning of week 6...there is brain activity. At 8 weeks they can feel pain. Fetal heartbeat can be detected as early as 5 1/2 weeks.

[americanpregnancy.org]

Taxes: I don't see myself as a Republican but as a Conservative. There is a difference. But as far as taxes go, how do you think the bullshit the Democrats put into the stimulus bill (that had nothing to with the pandemic) will be funded? How do you think their socialist/communist agenda will be financed....more taxes.

Gun Control: who gives a shit about Obama? I never mentioned him. I was referring to the Democrats agenda to disarm the American people to bring in socialism/communism.

[bbc.com]

Link to interesting article about free speech
[nypost.com]

drops mic

@ArtemisDivine There's no debate whether many Southern Democrats (the party that hisorically, from the 1800s, opposed Emancipation and supported States Rights, the South, and eventually the right to secede over slavery, leading to the Civil War) flipped to the Republican party 100 years later when the party platforms had reversed and the party of Lincoln somehow became the party of wealthy white people. Again, it's history.

An earthworm can feel pain. All living organisms can feel pain. Amoeba feel pain. It's been claimed, with some dubious studies to back them up, that plants feel pain. Pain is a reflex action to stimuli. That doesn't mean higher brain function, or existence as a human being. If the mother feels that it does, fine. That's up to her. But it's not up to you, and it's not up to me, and it sure as hell isn't up to lawmakers or courts to tell her so.

It's interesting to me that you critique one side's porkbarrel projects, without mentioning, for example, the billions targeted to megacorporations, who have more than enough resources to survive this downturn, without any caveat in return that they maintain their current payroll. For example, Boeing, who donated to Trump's inaugural celebration, are getting billions of dollars. And it won't be the CEOs of these firms who are getting laid off; they have to make the tough decisions like "how many workers should we cut this month?" And I doubt you noticed how deep into debt we went on the Republican tax cuts, which will have to be paid for eventually by- did you guess?- taxes. Not on the rich, though, if the Conservatives have anything to say about it.

Nowhere in your link to the BBC article does any Democrat mention "disarming the American people", nor does anyone mention socialism. Did you read it? There was a proposal for a federal licensing requirement, a proposal for a waiting period, a proposal for an ammunition tax. So a $20 box of ammo would cost $25. Socialism indeed!

I'm not wasting any more time with you. Be healthy and have a nice life.

@ArtemisDivine Those old democrats switch to the republican party in the 60's when the democratic party changed its platform and became more inclusive. The Republicans adopted the southern strategy and the southern democrats switched party because of desegregation. This is not the same democratic party of the 19th and the early 20th century, just as thisvus not the republican party of the 19th and early 20th century. When one party make to many changes to evolve to become more inclusive as the democratic party did in the late 1950's and 1960's, the conservative southern members left and brought their ideas into the republican party that we have today.

@ArtemisDivine When the richest people paid more than 50% of their income in taxes in the 60's and 70's they poverty rate was higher than it is now. I never met or heard of any of them receiving massive checks that was being distributed from the taxes taken from the rich. When Ronald Reagan proposed cutting the top tax rate to 39.5% i still haven't met any poor people who was getting those distributions. When George Bush cut it to 35% there were no distributions to the poor. Now it's 20% and still no distributions to the poor people. They keep telling you that they will take money from the reich and give it to the non working people that refuse to work, but that has never happened. The poverty rate is higher now. Before this pandemic people were working 2 and 3 jobs in order to make it. That is why they kept saying that new jobs are being created. bet you are not a multi millionaire and those tax rate decrease does not affect you at all, and i am sure no money from the rich was ever redistributed to you. However you keep repeating that crap without thinking.

3

She crossed the line from criticism to ill will by saying Boris deserved to get sick. Free speech always has limits, and malicious commentary is a shortcut to said limits.

3

If she did this anonymously there would have been no story.
She used her position in the party to make an unsanctioned gaslighting statement.
Her employer has no choice but to dismiss her as distance the organization from her statements.

She shit in her mess kit and she didn’t like the taste afterwards. She abused her party position and put her employer in a bad light. All around bad optics.

... Agree

3

Sometimes it is prudent to just keep your thoughts to yourself. Free thought is always protected. Well, maybe not for jebus.

It is so far, but I will not be surprised if we reach Orwell's 1984 while I am alive where we have our own Thought Police like he wrote about.

2

I agree 1000% with that woman!!!!!!! Is there a fund where I can send her $$?

2

While I don't believe in censorship, better judgment is often lacking when people speak.
I'm guilty of it myself.
In this case, she definitely didn't use her better judgment and spoke without considering what it would cost. While she was telling her own truth, it was something
she should have kept to herself.
It cost her, big time.

Same here, guilty of such too at times. When certain topics come up, people tend to let emotions takeover, and things go south from there on out.

2

There's freedom of expression, but if you yell fire! And someone's trampled or even dies, you'll go to jail.

2

Agree...it also comes with an expectation of good judgement, something she showed she was sadly lacking in, but which we expect our elected representatives to have.

There is no legal requirement to use good judgement when spouting off in public, as long as it doesn't rise to the level of libel or slander, in which case you could get sued and lose some money. Otherwise, not using good judgement will only cost you maybe a job and the friendship and/or goodwill of others.

@TomMcGiverin Well exactly....isn’t that what happened to her, she lost her job and her political party dropped her because she showed a lack of judgement. Nowhere in the post was it asked whether it was legal or illegal. The fact that it was not illegal makes no difference to whether it was sensible or prudent to say what she did. There are lots of things it may not be illegal to do or say, but they are nevertheless in bad taste and any sensible person would know not to express them. Nobody wants to employ a lawyer who publicly displays a lack of judgement, not to mention a political bias.

1

Free Speech in Britain is different than it is here. But I understand why she got canned.

1

This uproar is sort of similar to what happened after Thatcher died a few years ago. Many of us on the left were gloating and celebrating her death, while those on the right were outraged at that reaction. Personally, as the widower of a spouse who, like Thatcher, suffered and died of dementia, felt glad to see her dead, but not glad about her dementia, which I would not wish on my worst enemy. These sorts of issues are complicated and everyone deserves to have their opinion and feelings about their political opponents. Still, these opinions will always upset those on the opposing side and you better be ready to pay a price if you make them public.

1

There are consequences for speaking up, speaking out, or just speaking. One needs to measure ones urges especially when in the public eye. One might hold ones tongue lest their tongue hold them. Loose lips sink ships.

1

I was unaware that the UK had a "free speech" clause somewhere. Enlighten me please.

@Jetty Thank you. I am always learning. I guess both of our leaders see hair as an expression of freedom.

1

I personally cannot tell you what others deserve as far as COVID-19 is concerned. I'm not a Boris Johnson fan but was actually hoping he would recover. I cannot say I would have this same hope if the infection hit his American look alike. Again, I cannot tell you what other people deserve. Some of us just have different hopes.

1

I've often wished politicians (and others who irk me) would go away and die and wouldn't care if they did. I don't really care about this woman's opinion either (unless she was a witch and cursed him) BUT as you say, we must always consider the consequences which is why I use a pseudonym on FB

1

My acid test is always the same, Is it the Truth? If what she said is true then it is it's own defense.

1

Yep, agreed. We have the right to speak out, and others have the right to react, including deciding they will no longer associate with us. Reminds me of That commedian, Godfrey?, fired from voicing the Afflack insurance duck for insensitive comments he made about Japan after the Fukushima tsunami and nuclear disaster.

1

Fully agree. Never had a doubt about this.

Boris Johnson should also sue her ass to bankruptcy and total destruction.

1

"....Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction...."

I don't know if your definition of free speech is characteristic of or based on some widespread understanding of things in the UK, but it has little to do with how I would see it, or expect it to be seen by most others including the law, here in the US.

kmaz Level 7 Apr 10, 2020

Here in the US, most states have at-will employment laws and the federal government also does not protect workers from being fired for any reason or no reason at all. So for all practical purposes, most Americans do not have freedom of speech if they depend on an employer for their income.

@Jetty
Thanks, let me put this a different way. If by "retaliation" in wikipedia, the author meant retaliation from the government, then yes, this would be more or less as I understood it in the US. Given that you've cited a case where something that is more or less "retaliation" (or strong consequences) took place twice, both from non-governmental bodies, I think there is some intellectual sloppiness going on here, somewhere. I think it's a general notion here in the US that the government has little or no business in what you say or don't say. I don't think it's as much a general notion in trying to tell a private group whether they must continue to include you if they don't like what you have had to say. I'm not sure where the law stands on employment. Maybe it depends a bit on the fine print of one's contract.

Please note that we are talking about a person wishing a potentially fatal illness on the UK elected leader. There are (from what little I understand) laws in the US as to what one may say or not say in discussing whether one wishes to see potentially dangerous things befall the elected head of state. I don't know the law exactly, but I do think it's against the law to say something that might be interpreted as a threat against the POTUS. I would be very surprised if a person was not thrown out of a political party for something like that, and I'm guessing they could face criminal charges.

As to a seemingly milder version of that such as wishing various types of illness on someone,, I don't know.

By the way, isn't it against the law in the UK to utter various types of disparaging remarks (not even talking about wishing ill upon them) about the Queen?

1

Quite true. Speaking unpopular viewpoints always carries a price. If you depend on an employer for your livelihood or the membership of your party for your office or position in the party or government, you had better make sure your ass is covered before you clash with their views. Glad I'm retired and have comfortable finances, so anyone who doesn't like my views can kiss my ass!

1

He bragged about mingling with many others in the face of a pandemic, putting other lives on the line, and risking the health of doctors and nurses who risk their lives to take care of morons like Boris and "I'm not going to wear a mask" Don the con. Also, I have to wonder if this were about a guy and a conservative guy at that, how it would have probably just flown under the radar and how different the comments here would likely be. We have a POTUS who, among other repulsive and injurious acts of idiocy, bragged about sexually molesting women and he is still around, more fearless and reckless than ever. Women are ALWAYS judged more harshly. It sucks.

@Jetty
Yes.
Yes, but men and women are judged differently and women suffer harsher consequences more often.

0

From all I’ve heard, he flagrantly disregarded recommendations given to the public by experts in the medical field. Through hubris and arrogance - as well as considering how many others he emboldened to do the same - he definitely deserves what he got. There’d better be a serious backlash in her defence!

Varn Level 8 Apr 10, 2020
0

Anyone who opposes our constitution is an enemy of ALL our freedoms.

Your American Constitution ONLY applies to Americans, it does NOT apply to the world NOR the entire Human Race.

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