This from my fundie sister ....
".... the mass murder of many people were justified "science". And experimenting on people as well. Communism is a good example of the " no God" theology. The problem with this thinking is that the people have control of the scientific community become their own God's. They make their own definitions of what is right and wrong. What's allowed and what's not. It's always changing. Rights to free speech and individual freedoms are dictated their theology. There is no foundation for Good and evil. What defines good and evil.
The New Testament and Christ's example are the highest demonstration of what is good and what is evil. The Dogmatic Pharisees where called out by Christ and told the devil was their father because they choose to suppress the people and denied God's , whom the scriptures taught about. Love, forgiveness, faith, hope, Grace, compassion, caring for others is Good. To please God by doing good is good.
I need not describe evil. God and his creation his Good. Hate, selfishness, etc. is evil. Denying God is to be against him and all who believe in him. This is a sad business. "
I won't bore you with my response and the ensuing verbal battle, but I am looking for more effective responses as I'm certain we will come to this conversation again.
Her thinking processes are a cognitive disaster area.
She fails to think analytically.
She fails to think critically.
She fails to think rationally.
She fails to think dispassionately.
I would see no point in trying to engage her power of cognition, as she "cannot think straight".
It would appear that your sister was dropped on her head as a child, multiple times. It may be best to just let he sit in the corner and talk to her imaginary friend as it seems to give her some comfort in her current condition or maybe some laudanam will help?
Their main method of arguing is to start with one thing, then when you counter it with something effective, they tangentialize away from the original argument, and if you allow it, they control the argument, so you have to call them out and force them to stay on the original argument. It helps to have a lot of good ammo too . . . [infidels.org]
Sadly and imo Friend, I think you've come up against the age old adage of " You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink," which also translates to " You can lead a Believer to Reason but cannot make him/her think."
I've run into similar situations many times in my life, starting with one of my sisters who converted to Catholicism ONLY because, A) she was doing the 'maternal baking bit' ( had a bun in the oven so to speak) and the father of the child would NOT marry her unless she became a Catholic, and, B) the whole marriage went completely 'pear-shaped' within 5 years and they divorced only for her find out that that, under Catholic Canonic Laws, both could never have their divorce recognised by the church.
I had many a 'debate' with her over that and religion but she insisted upon cling to Catholicism like a hungry leech even though I sensed she did understand and often comprehend what I was saying.
My best advice for you would be try and leave her to her delusions because you will only suffer emotionally otherwise.
So the holocaust, 6 million people killed by Nazi fascists, led by a catholic Hitler, not a communist dude, and protected by the Vatican no less, was also christian justified science? And the millions slaughterered described in the bible plus the crusades, the inquisition barbarism, that is all good? Please.
Both communism and almost all religions are examples of "total system Ideology" -- ideologies which purport to includes and explain everything. Every total system ideology has a great potential tendency for becoming a tyrannical totalitarian system. It also draws "true believers" who literally sell lout all of them selves to embrace the ideology. And, those true believers bond together for a sense of power. Please read Erich Fromm's ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM.
My sister was similar, and she hated my guts all my life and I never knew why.
She died of colon cancer at 48.
I had long since given up on our relationship, but I was able to speak with her the week before she died where she forgave me, for what exactly I still don't know.
However she was defiantly a Jesus freak, but I hadn't told anyone I was transgender, I'm not sure I was entirely sure of it then. I've lived a clean sober life, now I'll really never know what kind of bug she had up her ass.
No God is required for one to be a humane and loving person. Also based on history, more evil has been brought upon the Earth by those who claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Fundamentalist Christians have proven the Holy Spirit(tm) is not in their religion. They are wicked children of creation destined to be cast into Hell as God never knew them. God said those who do his will are his children, not those who hear only and never do his will. And, there never was a Real Jesus(tm), he never existed, just as Moses never existed and the Jews were never slaves of Egypt. Jesus was invented in the middle ages when the 'J' was created by the church just to pronounce his name. Christianity is fiction and every priest a liar.
I became a much more ethical person after leaving religion that I ever was while in religion.
Religion taught me not to think too much, not to be an intellectual. I was taught to listen to the church leaders, and do whatever they told me to do, without asking questions.
It was only after leaving religion that I was able to think for myself, and learn what ethics were all about. Ironically, I understood Biblical ethics more after leaving religion. I began to understand what it meant to love my neighbors and to treat them the way I wanted them to treat me. I appreciated the ethical teachings of the Sermon on the Mount much more as an atheist than I ever did as a religious person. Yes, I now dismiss the mythology of the Bible, but some of the ethical teachings are very valuable.
High taxes are good
Children less than 1 month old are not counted, therefore, are not people.
2 Kings 4:32-37
you don't have to be jesus to raise someone from the dead
every three years, all your tithes are to go to local charity, foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your town ... NOT THE CHURCH
Not sure what she is saying. Does she agree with the use of people for experimenting on or against the scientific community as a whole saying that they are experimenting on people and make their own decisions about it being right or wrong and should listen to god who I believe has never made a statement about science experimenting on people. Maybe it is late and my brain is failing to understand. I do know that there was much debate in the medical and scientific community about using the nazi data from their torture and murder of the Jewish people in the name of science. There actually does not seem to be a coherent argument in there.
1 Corinthians 11:6
"For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."
1 Corinthians 14:
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
1st Peter 3:3
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes"
Remind her that
a) the New Testament is the only source for what is good and what is evil and
b) if we are not to choose what is right and wrong,
c) she must abide by these rules.
When she doesn't follow those rules, remind her that she said she chould not choose what is right and wrong and just hammer away at that point: that if she is free to choose what is right and wrong, so are the "No Gods" free to choose as well
If she does follow those rules, well, much respect at least for practicing what she preaches!
It should be noted that the running theme of the Christian narrative is the utter submission to existing authority. First to that of God who decides what all must be, then to the kings, dictators, slave owners, and finally every other person that may hold sway over you. A concept of obedience that oddly enough played extremely well for the Roman conquerors that had to deal with resistance from the Jews in Israel and other peoples in lands they controlled
First I'd ask her to disclose what mass-murder was justified as being for science? I can't think of any experimentation done at large scale which was solely for science and not performed on people that a particular political regime found undesirable (Nazis work on Jews and other prisoners in their camps; Japanese doing similar things as Nazis to Chinese and other prisoners in their camp; don't know if you can consider Russians starving Ukrainians to death in the 20s as an experiment in any form.)