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This from my fundie sister ....

".... the mass murder of many people were justified "science". And experimenting on people as well. Communism is a good example of the " no God" theology. The problem with this thinking is that the people have control of the scientific community become their own God's. They make their own definitions of what is right and wrong. What's allowed and what's not. It's always changing. Rights to free speech and individual freedoms are dictated their theology. There is no foundation for Good and evil. What defines good and evil.
The New Testament and Christ's example are the highest demonstration of what is good and what is evil. The Dogmatic Pharisees where called out by Christ and told the devil was their father because they choose to suppress the people and denied God's , whom the scriptures taught about. Love, forgiveness, faith, hope, Grace, compassion, caring for others is Good. To please God by doing good is good.
I need not describe evil. God and his creation his Good. Hate, selfishness, etc. is evil. Denying God is to be against him and all who believe in him. This is a sad business. "

I won't bore you with my response and the ensuing verbal battle, but I am looking for more effective responses as I'm certain we will come to this conversation again.

Thoughts?

Normanbites 7 Aug 28
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36 comments

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0

She is a fuckwit, don't bother arguing with her, you cannot reason with one so brainwashed that her actual brain has dissolved and leaked out of her ears.

5

Her thinking processes are a cognitive disaster area.

She fails to think analytically.

She fails to think critically.

She fails to think rationally.

She fails to think dispassionately.

I would see no point in trying to engage her power of cognition, as she "cannot think straight".

I can try to model what "thinking straight" kinda sorta looks like. Beyond that, I agree.

@Normanbites Putting it very simply, you think straight, but she does not.

4

It would appear that your sister was dropped on her head as a child, multiple times. It may be best to just let he sit in the corner and talk to her imaginary friend as it seems to give her some comfort in her current condition or maybe some laudanam will help?

Unfortunately, she has a husband and 6 kids to fortify her insanity. If argument by numbers were not a fallacy, I would be out voted.

@Normanbites Intelligent people realize that the planet is already over populated, the brain damaged types seem to insist upon going forth and being fruitful and multiplying.

@Surfpirate Yes, and hence concern intelligence may not be an enhanced human trait for future evolution.

@Normanbites So Idiocracy or some other dystopian future awaits? Your thoughts?

@Surfpirate I think this conundrum was at the base of H.G. Well's thoughts when he wrote "The Time Machine". :-/

@Normanbites Morlocks, sounds like BBQ for dinner.

4

Their main method of arguing is to start with one thing, then when you counter it with something effective, they tangentialize away from the original argument, and if you allow it, they control the argument, so you have to call them out and force them to stay on the original argument. It helps to have a lot of good ammo too . . . [infidels.org]

4

This is just the reason I no longer speak to my fundie sister and brother. I would simply point out there's no evidence for god and they've been looking for some for many thousands of years.

3

Sadly and imo Friend, I think you've come up against the age old adage of " You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink," which also translates to " You can lead a Believer to Reason but cannot make him/her think."
I've run into similar situations many times in my life, starting with one of my sisters who converted to Catholicism ONLY because, A) she was doing the 'maternal baking bit' ( had a bun in the oven so to speak) and the father of the child would NOT marry her unless she became a Catholic, and, B) the whole marriage went completely 'pear-shaped' within 5 years and they divorced only for her find out that that, under Catholic Canonic Laws, both could never have their divorce recognised by the church.
I had many a 'debate' with her over that and religion but she insisted upon cling to Catholicism like a hungry leech even though I sensed she did understand and often comprehend what I was saying.
My best advice for you would be try and leave her to her delusions because you will only suffer emotionally otherwise.

"You can lead a xtian to knowledge, but you can't make them think." is the proper quote, I believe. XD

3

So the holocaust, 6 million people killed by Nazi fascists, led by a catholic Hitler, not a communist dude, and protected by the Vatican no less, was also christian justified science? And the millions slaughterered described in the bible plus the crusades, the inquisition barbarism, that is all good? Please.

3

Maybe "You sure know a lot about a being who only lives in your imagination. Do you also know what Humpty Dumpty 's favorite color is and what political party Santa Claus belongs to?" or something like that.

3

Both communism and almost all religions are examples of "total system Ideology" -- ideologies which purport to includes and explain everything. Every total system ideology has a great potential tendency for becoming a tyrannical totalitarian system. It also draws "true believers" who literally sell lout all of them selves to embrace the ideology. And, those true believers bond together for a sense of power. Please read Erich Fromm's ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM.

To piggyback off your recommendation WordyWalt, @Normanbites You may also want to check out The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.

3

My sister was similar, and she hated my guts all my life and I never knew why.
She died of colon cancer at 48.
I had long since given up on our relationship, but I was able to speak with her the week before she died where she forgave me, for what exactly I still don't know.
However she was defiantly a Jesus freak, but I hadn't told anyone I was transgender, I'm not sure I was entirely sure of it then. I've lived a clean sober life, now I'll really never know what kind of bug she had up her ass.

Can we call it Religiosity? Yes, it is definitely a disease. Seriously, it is a mental illness. It's when a person become totally convinced of his/her own imaginations and hallucinations about the existence of gods and such.

A lot of super religious people believe in concepts like 'original sin' where everyone is guilty by virtue of being born; possibly that is what she was forgiving you for -- being born, who knows if she didn't explain. Sounds super frustrating @Willow_Wisp.

I was disliked by one brother and one sister, one sister was supportive and loving. I was disabled, by what they were confused as was everyone else as no one knew about Aspergers, so they resented me because I was treated as "special" by my parents. But then the two who disliked me became fundies and my atheism and being trans became an excuse. The one who was supportive has dementia now so I am without a family.

3

If that's a cut-and-paste then I'm afraid your sister is barely literate.

Trimmed on the front and back, but otherwise, yup!!

2

Ask her if she has an insurance policy or saves $$$. xians are not supposed to take a thought for tomorrow (see the so-called sermon on the mount.

2

No God is required for one to be a humane and loving person. Also based on history, more evil has been brought upon the Earth by those who claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Fundamentalist Christians have proven the Holy Spirit(tm) is not in their religion. They are wicked children of creation destined to be cast into Hell as God never knew them. God said those who do his will are his children, not those who hear only and never do his will. And, there never was a Real Jesus(tm), he never existed, just as Moses never existed and the Jews were never slaves of Egypt. Jesus was invented in the middle ages when the 'J' was created by the church just to pronounce his name. Christianity is fiction and every priest a liar.

I'm enjoying her current scramble to "prove" Hitler was not a Christian ... I think that was an unpleasant revelation for her. 😀

2

There's alot of stupid to unpack there

2

I became a much more ethical person after leaving religion that I ever was while in religion.

Religion taught me not to think too much, not to be an intellectual. I was taught to listen to the church leaders, and do whatever they told me to do, without asking questions.

It was only after leaving religion that I was able to think for myself, and learn what ethics were all about. Ironically, I understood Biblical ethics more after leaving religion. I began to understand what it meant to love my neighbors and to treat them the way I wanted them to treat me. I appreciated the ethical teachings of the Sermon on the Mount much more as an atheist than I ever did as a religious person. Yes, I now dismiss the mythology of the Bible, but some of the ethical teachings are very valuable. 🙂

2

Fascists, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths would wholeheartedly agree with all the OMG WTF shit!!!

2

I certainly agree with the others what does your sister's god have to do with not hurting other people. I can only imagine your response. And I have a feeling it was appropriate. 😉

Well to give you an idea, I pointed out that as far as evidence is concerned, the way we tell a person is a Christian is that they solemnly declare that Christ is their personal lord and savior. So as far as that evidence goes, Hitler and his millions of followers were as Christian as she is. Then proceeded to follow up with many Hitler quotes supporting that notion.

Probably needless to say, she took that as a personal attack ..... which I see as "facts are facts so it's not my problem".

@Normanbites don't you just hate it when you get attacked by facts 😉

@oldFloyd Well, as you know, "facts" are just someone else's "opinion". :-/

@Normanbites Y/R If you combine these three characters you have a YEAH RIGHT. 🤔😁🤯

2

Wow.

1

Matthew 22:15-22
High taxes are good

Leviticus 27:1-8
Children less than 1 month old are not counted, therefore, are not people.

2 Kings 4:32-37
you don't have to be jesus to raise someone from the dead

Deut 14:28:30
every three years, all your tithes are to go to local charity, foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your town ... NOT THE CHURCH

I spent a few years arguing against the bible with the bible when christians would try to prove the bible with the bible. It is a futile mud slinging fest.

I finally just started insisting they show the bible has any more veracity than any other fairy tale before I would accept any such arguments. Naturally they will try to point out historically accurate references in the bible to implicate the whole thing has integrity. But that is easily shorted by pointing out the Sherlock Holmes novels describe Elizabethan London accurately, but that doesn't mean it is true.

It has worked pretty well, I haven't HAD to reference 1 Corinthians 2:14 in a long time, but it is there for a back up. 😀

1

'Evil' Does not exist but blame can be put on any person for their deeds if they lack empathy.

1

There are some pretty odd things said in the bible, I like this one Exodus 21:12
“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death." IRONIC for your sister.

1

Not sure what she is saying. Does she agree with the use of people for experimenting on or against the scientific community as a whole saying that they are experimenting on people and make their own decisions about it being right or wrong and should listen to god who I believe has never made a statement about science experimenting on people. Maybe it is late and my brain is failing to understand. I do know that there was much debate in the medical and scientific community about using the nazi data from their torture and murder of the Jewish people in the name of science. There actually does not seem to be a coherent argument in there.

Not the former, the latter. She is convinced if it were not for religious constraint, we would all be trepanning our neighbors in their sleep. It's ridiculous ... well to be fair, maybe not that ridiculous, but close.

I am aware of the debate you are talking about. It took place in the late 40's after the war and had to do with what to do with the data gathered from those experiments. If I recall correctly, I think it was finally decided with some reluctance to use that data for good purpose so the horrors inflicted and the lives lost would have some "good meaning" or outcome. .... I think even that decision was taken with no glee and some conflicted reservation. But the over all feeling was it would be a shame for those horrors and losses to be suffered for no good purpose at all.

I'm just stating what I seem to recall. Not that I agree.

@Normanbites
This says it all.

@Normanbites I personally think that the decision should be with the people who were in the camps. Ask the survivours what they want to do with the data, the surviving family members of those tortured and murdered. I know that the data from immersing people into ice cold water is used and forms the basis for hyperthermic tables used quite widely.[jewishvirtuallibrary.org]

1

1 Corinthians 11:6
"For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."

1 Corinthians 14:
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1st Peter 3:3
"Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes"


Remind her that
IF
a) the New Testament is the only source for what is good and what is evil and
AND IF
b) if we are not to choose what is right and wrong,
THEN
c) she must abide by these rules.

When she doesn't follow those rules, remind her that she said she chould not choose what is right and wrong and just hammer away at that point: that if she is free to choose what is right and wrong, so are the "No Gods" free to choose as well

If she does follow those rules, well, much respect at least for practicing what she preaches!

Sadly, the Christians like to say, "We are all sinners and fall short of God's laws. So we go to church and ask for the forgiveness that is freely granted as promised in the Bible."

Obviously, that is a "freedom of hypocrisy" card ... what can you do?

1

It should be noted that the running theme of the Christian narrative is the utter submission to existing authority. First to that of God who decides what all must be, then to the kings, dictators, slave owners, and finally every other person that may hold sway over you. A concept of obedience that oddly enough played extremely well for the Roman conquerors that had to deal with resistance from the Jews in Israel and other peoples in lands they controlled

I am witnessing more every day, the truth of what you are saying. Apparently, Gawd has ordained the Rump to be POTUS, so whatever that POS has to say must be "right" according to Gawd's plan <eyeroll>. It is very amazing in a perverse kind of way.

1

First I'd ask her to disclose what mass-murder was justified as being for science? I can't think of any experimentation done at large scale which was solely for science and not performed on people that a particular political regime found undesirable (Nazis work on Jews and other prisoners in their camps; Japanese doing similar things as Nazis to Chinese and other prisoners in their camp; don't know if you can consider Russians starving Ukrainians to death in the 20s as an experiment in any form.)

I'm sure she or her preacher were referring to the Nazi's, Stalin and Pol Pot all being atheists (false) and claiming they did it all in the name of "science". I think countering with Hitler and his followers being Christian was enough to derail their assertions.

@Normanbites Most Christians would counter the Hitler example by saying that 'he wasn't a "real" Christian'. In the case of Stalin -- who I think was a real athiest, his sole reason for killing was increasing his personal power, the power of the soviet state, and removing obstacles (ie anyone that disagreed, which of course all religious people disagreed with state-enforced atheism.) Stalin's motive was never science and the deaths weren't in the name of science -- I think they were pretty honest about just killing all non-supporters.

@sarbot Yup, that's where she went. But it isn't an effective "counter", it's the "No true Scottsman" logical fallacy, which I did point out, and then reiterated as far as the evidence is concerned, Hitler swore that Jesus Christ was his lord and savior, which made him just as Christian as she is, so far as anyone can tell.

As I'm sure you can imagine, that didn't go over well and I am now an evil person .... but somehow I'm convinced she is now looking for evidence he wasn't a Christian. That should be somewhat educational for her. I hope.

1

Sorry about your sister. 😕

Thanks! The saddest part is women I know personally who are freethinkers are very few and far between.

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