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What can an atheist say to a Christian to convince him. I was a Christian for 30 years and have thought this myself.

I think the only way you can convince a Christian to even listen at all to you is to slowly chip away in his belief of hell. As long as he or she believes in hell they are not gonna listen. If you can convince hell is not real then they can open eyes and ears and see for themselves how ridiculous some of the stuff in Bible is

abyers1970 7 Oct 1
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32 comments

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0

Good luck with that!

7

Just live a good and happy life. Nothing sells Atheism better than by showing that you are a good person and are happy. I never denigrate the Bible. I just show that it is not needed.

4

There's nothing you can say. They have to come to enlightenment on their own.

4

You can lead a theist to reason, but you can't make him/her think.

3

In general religion is not about rational arguments, is about identity. The identity of religion is imprinted from birth and then is difficult to argue against it. You are not discussing an idea, you are discussing the identity of the person. It does not trigger a healthy discussion, it triggers self defense.
The same goes for politics and other ideologies in some cases...

Given this, if you want to "change" someone you first need to understand his/her identity, then show that there is an alternative identity that is as good or better than the religious identity. Do not try to attack their beliefs, it backfires most of the time. Show how science, rationalism is amazing and good for society.
Show how secularism and separation of the management of society and religion built the modern society.
Show how the pursue of knowledge, science, and even social sciences can lead to a world of wonder, more humane and bring happiness.
At this point if the person accepted this stuff, there is not much difference in the behavior and agendas between this person and a de-facto atheist. The leap will be natural, smooth or even unnecessary.

what he said, ya

3

I encourage them to read the Bible. I also ask them how they know what they know.

2

Knock on their door and ask them if they have a moment to hear the good news of Christopher Hitchens

Thanks for reminding me of this cartoon.

2

I gave up evangelism when I left religion.
NOT my job.

2

You will not convince them. The best you can do is plant thoughts that over a period of time they might listen to. I do that. As for "hell" it has evolved greatly over time and was once the garbage dump outside the city and was ever burning. Believers do not study enough to understand this. I had a former father-in-law who got back into Pentecostalism before he died. he told me that he did this because "he did not want to burn." This does make it plain that ideas of hell influence believers a lot.

It's possible. I've done it.

2

Why would you say anything to convince him? Why do you WANT to convince him? An atheist should be the last person in the business of telling others what to think.

Religion informs laws that take away citizens' rights. I can't think of a better reason to try to convince someone of something.

@JeffMurray Then argue against the laws and in favor of religious tolerance.

@editor20 So you're suggesting we let them make awful laws that take away rights first so we can fight against those instead of just fighting against the ideology that put them, and many more to come, in place? Is that an efficient plan? Anyway, got to get back to killing individual ants and bees that make their way out of the colony and hive in my attic; I swear it's like a full time job, but I don't know what else I can do if I don't want a ton of ants and bees in my house.

@JeffMurray I can't think of anything less efficient or less effective than telling Christians to abandon their belief system; there is no spray or poison for it like there is with bees and ants. This is not a suggestions to allow fundamentalists to make laws and then try and reverse them. It means building a barrier around the hive to keep its ideology from polluting the public discourse.

@editor20 Sure, you can try that too, but how does trying to convert people into non-believers not a part of that toolkit? If there are enough of them, the hive will be too big to build a wall around to separate it from the legislature. ( And in our case in the US, it obviously already is... )

Also, not for nothing, but we're not simply telling people to abandon their beliefs. That mischaracterization drastically taints the argument so much some might call it a straw man.

2

I don't see the sense in trying. I don't have the education to break through the programming of a cult.

2

I find Christian proselytism totally obnoxious, so why would I want to engage in the atheist counterpart?

I find it quite amusing how you act as if atheists and xtians are the same type of people.

@redhog If they are arguing with others and trying to change their belief systems, then they are the same type of people.

@redhog I'm only talking about this atheist, me. And I was responding to the original question that seems to make the assumption you bring up.

2

I have not spent my life trying to change the views of those who believe...it’s not my business to do so. Most of my friends are practising Christians of some denomination or another, they respect my right to my atheist views and I respect their right to believe in god. We have too many other things in common with each other to discuss and enjoy for me to want to introduce discord into our relationships. Atheism is not a religion and it doesn’t proselytise, I’m not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, and I don’t expect them to try to convert me to theirs.

You're fortunate you xtian friends aren't overly evangelical. Evangelical xtianity has taken over in the US and most xtians see it as their duty to convert atheists.

@Theresa_N A very sad situation.

2

Reverse their logic on them.
Tell them that 'you'll know I'm right, when you die, and nothing happens". 😛
jk.

2

Maybe the correct question is: how to break free of cognitive dissonance 😝

Mvtt Level 7 Oct 2, 2020
1

Trying to convince a Christian there I no god is similar to trying to talk to a Trump supporter. They think they know everything, repeat what they are told and will not listen to reason.

1

Why do you want to convince a Christian of anything? Why does it matter? Some people need their beliefs as much as some babies need a pacifier or a blankie. Why take away their crutch if they need it? I have friends who have lost a child, and thinking their son or daughter is in Heaven gives them comfort and hurts no one. But if there is some good reason to make the person doubt, you ask questions to make her think: Do newborn babies go to hell? Do people in lands where they have never heard of Jesus go to hell? Is that just, fair, honorable, right? Is God not just? If you were God would you send them to hell? Why should they go to hell when they did not reject your god, but never heard of it/him/her? What if the Muslims are right, and you are worshiping the wrong god? Why are you so sure your god is the only or the strongest god?

Damn fine answer!

You seem to be going both ways on this answer. I'm not sure if you're saying you should or shouldn't. 🤔

@JeffMurray I would not try to make anyone doubt her faith. But if you have some reason to do so--perhaps someone you want to keep in your life is trying to convert you to the point of harassment-- you can ask provoking questions.

@Bobbie63 So someone trying to convert you is a good enough reason, but someone voting for people that plan to take away your rights is not?

1

There is the old saying that "you can bring a horse to wter, but you can't make him drink".

My apprtoach is just to give factual information to them, knowign they will encounter it over an over. It is up to them whether or not to change their minds.

I may also tel lthem that "The beginning of all wisdom starts with doubt." if they think on that one long enough, they will eventually leave religion.

However, I think most religious people doubt the cannon beliefs of their religion. However, they stay for the sense of bleoning and community that religion provides them.

1

I don't try to sway them. People that have been indoctrinated into theistic beliefs are immune to rational argument. It's usually better to just smile and change the subject.

1

Well, that is one way.

1

Why would I want to convince someone they should believe what I believe (or not believe what I don't believe)? I sure don't want them to try to convert me. Why would I be so rude as to try to convert them? All I want out of Christians with regard to belief is for them not to legislate, adjudicate, execute or bully their religion onto others. Beyond that it's none of my business.

g

But they all do. All the time. Every time they vote, donate, etc. they are working to impose their beliefs on everyone. The ONLY way to push back against that is to try to convince some of them it's wrong.

@JeffMurray that simply isn't true. i personally know christians who believe in separation of church and state and act accordingly and vote accordingly. joe biden, whom i do not personally know, is a practicing catholic and he believes in separation of church and state. he is not alone. i am not advocating christianity. i am advocating leaving people alone unless they do try what i said, and no, they do NOT all do that.

g

@JeffMurray and furthermore, turning christians into atheists or at least convincing them there is no hell is NOT the way to make them stop legislating, executing, adjudicating and bullying their religion onto others. outvoting them, out-arguing them on the legal aspects, THAT is the way. they can believe in hell all they want.

g

@genessa I not arguing about specifics of hell and heaven. I'm taking about converting people to non-believers. And I don't know any atheists that are actively legislating their religious beliefs, just sayin'. I also disagree that religious people can be completely unbiased by their religion at all times in any way that relates to things that will affect others. The question comes down to, how do you outvote them when they outnumber you and/or have used previously obtained power to rig the system. Maybe once it gets to that point, you'll wish more people tried to fix the root cause instead of fighting against the symptoms or consequences...

@JeffMurray I wasn't arguing about those things either, and no, that actually wasn't the question.

g

@genessa

or at least convincing them there is no hell is NOT the way to make them stop legislating

Seems like you were...

no, that actually wasn't the question.

What wasn't the question?

@JeffMurray Oh please. I should rewrite everything I said when it wluld be so much easier for you to reread it?

g

@genessa
If you're not interested in a discourse on the OP that's fine, just say so. But I obviously didn't understand what you were referring to from what you've written, so rereading isn't going to help matters.
You asked two questions:
Why would I want to convince someone they should believe what I believe (or not believe what I don't believe)?

Why would I be so rude as to try to convert them?

I believe I answered both with my original response: basically that you should want to convince and convert because they are legislating or supporting legislators that are trying to bully their religion onto you.

You claimed that some Christians support separation of church and state and that conversion isn't the answer, out voting them is.

I pointed out basically that out voting them isn't working because there's enough of them abusing the power advantage they've given themselves and that you'll probably wish more people tried to fix the root cause instead of symptom management at some point in the future.

Then it got confusing with vague pronoun usage.

@JeffMurray i am sorry you didn't understand what i said. your not understanding what i said does not, however, indicate that i am not interested in discourse on the original post or for that natter on side issues, which are not against the rules either. however, if you're going to tell me what i am or am not interested in, then that DOES diminish my interest.

g

@genessa I didn't tell you you weren't. I asked if you weren't.

@JeffMurray whatever 'sigh. i was. now i'm not.

g

@genessa Well that's sad. Didn't mean to make you so exasperated.

1

I was raised in a Christian faith that doesn't believe in the existence of hell, so that part at least wasn't an issue. But the notion that God and my guardian angel were constantly watching me, constantly judging me, took a long time to fade away.

My recommendation is to not try to convince anyone, rather, try to plant seeds of critical thinking through Socratic questions and measured discourse. Allow these time bombs of good sense to countdown in the mind of your friend or loved one for as long as it takes, the ticking becoming as loud as the stopwatch on 60 Minutes. Hopefully there will come a time when that incessant ticking can no longer be ignored and it stops just prior to an explosion of realization.

I was once told that the 'still small voice' in my head was my conscience. But my conscience became a voice of reason, its roots originating from unanswered or unanswerable questions that created tiny seedlings of cognitive dissonance which blossomed into that marvelous feeling and cradle of understanding: doubt.

1

Good point. That's a good starting place. Even just asking where the believer thinks Hell is, a physical place, under the earth, or a state of mind, a turmoil we put ourselves in when we don't do what we know is right.

If it's a physical place, why haven't we been able to find it with science? (Same thing with heaven.)

By meeting the believer half way and getting some brain cells thinking, a seed of doubt might be planted, even if it doesn't grow for years.

Heaven and hell exists in another dimension solely of one's imagination.

@jlynn37 just like the Bible plainly says, yes

0

How about saying Nothing as it is first, none of your business and second, IMO downright rude

0

I’m not sure there is much of anything you could say and I would not try anyway. There can be a certain disrespect in trying to dissuade someone of their personal view on religion. I find that religious folk tend not to try to convince me to see it there way and I tend to return the favor.

There is a big difference: your lack of belief isn't informing laws that take rights away from women.

@JeffMurray It is the same in my view. I vote one way because of my views and they do the same.

@indirect76 You honestly feel that someone voting to take away the right for others to marry the person they love or have autonomy over their own body is the same as someone voting to protect those rights because they are both simply voting their beliefs??

@JeffMurray Yes

@indirect76 I thought about this on and off all day long and I'm thoroughly confused by this. I honestly didn't expect you to say yes and that there was some sort of miscommunication. I'm interested to know more about how these things aren't distinguished for you by their aim and outcome.
Is the same true for you for stuff like hate speech?

@JeffMurray I appreciate your thoughtful response. My comment is more inspired by my understanding that my point of view, opinions and the way I see things are subjective. We probably agree on an enormous amount of things and I feel strongly that I am right, but at the end of the day it’s an opinion. People on the other side of the political spectrum believe they are right as much as we do.

This is why I see less difference than you may. Thanks for your civility and allowing me to expand on my previous one word response.

@indirect76 So the reason I asked a clarifying question is because I understand the 'different ideology' thing. As much as I think people who believe in trickle down economics are wrong and that there's more evidence than anyone should need to realize it doesn't work, I still grant that it's a difference of opinion. One can vote for their candidate that believes in it, and I'll vote for mine who doesn't. Hopefully, if voting is fair, the candidate whose policies help more people will win. Democracy at work. However, I just don't think one's desires to disenfranchise others or eliminate them from our system altogether is "on par" with the differing ideology, and it perplexes me beyond belief that someone with whom I seemingly have so much in common doesn't share what I thought was a gimmie.
So to my previous question, while it would be a subjective opinion to think "all Jews should be gassed" or "All Black people should be reverted to ⅗ of a person/vote/etc." I can't see how that's on equal footing of opinions like "All men are created equal". And if we can agree that there's a fundamental difference between wanting to vote for someone that will try to "get rid of" certain people, and one that will try to protect the less fortunate, that's a start.

0

There are some, well a few in fact, that one can take in this situation that I have found often do have the needed effect,
a) Get to know more about their religion and religious belief systems than they do since if, imo, one wants to 'remove' a large stone/boulder from the ground it is far quicker and easier to dig under it first than it is to merely continue chipping away at from the top downwards, and,
b) do your very best NOT to confront them and their beliefs, instead, just quietly and clearly as possible give/propose possible well founded alternatives, often this method works well since it helps sow that tiny seed of doubt into the mind, and finally but by no means the last or least,
c) as in training your dog, etc, reward works far, far better than cajoling.

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