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32 11

Another f@!king mass shooting here in America! At least 17 dead, 23 injured. What would it take to pass some sensible gun regulation?! Republicans say that’s not the issue. Then, please tell me, what exactly is the issue?? Why does the US have so many more shootings than any other industrialized nation in the world?

Jesusluvsu 6 Feb 14

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11

Too many people don't understand the Constitution. They also have a really screwed up "understanding" of the Second Amendment.
Then there's the gun lobby and the NRA. They've been so helpful.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Ok, please explain it to us...as you "understand" it of course.

@dahermit When it was written, pistols and rifles were all single-shot. Period. Don't even start with me.

@KKGator

-the belton flintlock was developed during the revolutionary war, it could fire 20 or so rounds in 5 seconds with one pull of the finger.

-the Puckle gun was an early Gatling gun created 60 years before the revolutionary war.

Sorry to be the one to tell you that the talking point you are parroting is an "alternative fact".

@KKGator Is that your "explanation" of the Constitution that other people do not understand? Do you know what "The Dunning-Kruger Effect" is?

@irascible What do you think "...well regulated..." meant in the time the Second Amendment was added to the Constitution...not in today's usage, but back then in regard to the use of arms? Being the Constitutional scholar you claim to be, I would like to know.

@dahermit Look, you can throw out all the garbage gun "facts" you want. The Belton's existence is only found in correspondence. There isn't a single one in existence to prove they were even real. The Puckler was primitive, and not widely-used. You can attempt to extrapolate what I said. You can even make up bullshit I didn't even say. It doesn't matter. You have NO excuse, and you are completely full of it. I don't give a flying rat's ass what you THINK your rights are. You cannot reasonably claim that the Second Amendment allows for the proliferation of assault-type weaponry, and multiple-round magazines.

@KKGator Uhhh...you got me confused with another poster. Aside from that, what I can or cannot reasonably claim as to the Second Amendment, is not up to you. Again, please do make a post as to what the Second Amendment means...I am all ears.

@Hugh Thank you, Hugh. There's been so much going through my head, it's been hard to hit all the salient points when making an argument. You totally nailed it.

@Hugh It is disingenuous of you to declare what "would make gun owners happy."...you have no idea. You also bandy-about the term, "well regulated". I assume you have gotten that from the Second Amendment but have not as of yet explained what you think that means.

@KKGator @Hugh I say we cut the middle man and just make murder illegal.

@KKGator no, they weren't. The musket argument fails. The puckle was invented before 1776 and was fully automatic.

@irascible the NRA is well regulated. They answer to the government and public opinion. Militia is a force of citizens. No, the reserves and national guard are not a militia. Those soldiers are not private citizens.

@Hugh wrong, it expressly forbids gun control. The entire reason it was included was because they were fighting a government with, what was at the time, modern weapons. They understood that weapons advance. They also understood that if the government has better weapons than the people, then the people stand no chance. Think about it. Besides, a militia is an armed citizenry. Citizens are regulated by the government and the government is regulated by the bill of rights. Without the second amendment none matter. Who gives a shit what you have to say when you have nothing to back it up?

@KKGator the puckler may have been "primitive" but it demonstrates a marked advance in weapons technology. The founding fathers understood that weapons evolve.

@KKGator At the time, that was the state of the art for military gear as well. So what is your point?

10

The NRA is very rich and in alot of pockets unfortunately

The NRA did not participate in the recent school shooting.

@dahermit i don't recall suggesting so

@irascible The NRA has never claimed to be a militia. It has claimed to be a membership driven political organization with the purpose of protecting the Second Amendment.

@dahermit The NRA should be held at the same standards and any other manufacturers. Food and other consumable good have to be safe and so should GUNS. How about Taking some of those Trillions of dollars in profit and invest in to GUN safety Technology. If we can secure an SMARTPHONE, we can secure a GUN.

@dahermit I am so sick of that argument about protecting 2nd Amendment rights! No one on either side wants to get rid of the 2nd amendment! its about regulation. The reality is that the NRA doesnt want tough gun regulations as it will hurt gun sales. Gun rights Activist don't want tough regulations because many of them will be in the same boat as your average street thug who could not pass a Background Check! In Texas, we have gun show at one of our convention centers here annually, and people often buy guns from this event to take advantage of the loop hole in the background check process.

@twshield NRA..."and other manufacturers"?!! You do know that the NRA is an "organization" made up of member gun owners and not a "manufacturer" don't you?

@twshield What does "... shall not be infringed." mean to you?

@dahermit So you are suggesting that Gun Manufacturers have nothing to do with the NRA at all....Dude Really?

@dahermit [businessinsider.com]

@dahermit [nytimes.com]

@dahermit I just read the cumulative dollar amount donated to our politicians and it came to over 30,000,000 dollars, from the NRA..now where did they get that much money to 'give away?' And , what did they want in return? I would say, emphatically...THEY have BLOOD on their hands!! They use the 2nd amendment and romantic notions to seduce people into gun ownership! Killing hurts us all...and guns in the hands of some person in a meltdown, kills people!

@twshield Are you actually going to claim that the NRA manufactures guns?

@dahermit why do i feel like i am talking to Kellyanne Conway lol

alternative facts........This is Hilarious!

@twshield I have to disagree with you, man. A militia is a force comprised of armed citizens. The people are regulated by the government. A militia can not be effective if they do not have comparable equipment to the opposition. That's why it says "arms" not muskets. the framers knew weapons would advance in time, but the threat of tyranny would never subside. "Behind every blade of grass there is a rifle," a Japanese advisors words to the empire in Japan when justifying not attacking the US. Those rifles weren't those of soldiers, but citizens.

@jayneonacobb If you will read back, i have never commented on weather on not the NRA is or is not a militia. This dude is suggesting that gun manufacturers are not affiliated with the NRA which is a lie.

@twshield I agree. As an insider I know for a fact that the NRA and the gun industry are intimately connected. Point is, the NRA is advocating for a basic human right. The industry donated to them to protect their interests. That's capitalism.

9

I have to say that the USA is a very sick, fearful and violent society and violence is the solution to everything here, that's just how we do things and life is very cheap (unless you are a Blastocyst, zygote, fetus). In My Humble Opinion.

I agree.

I've been thinking for a while that we ought to start "teaching" kids in kindergarten -- and never stop teaching them -- the importance of life, the idiocy of violence, to value humans, to fully understand what dead means, and on and on. I cannot imagine these kids truly understand the magnitude of the devastation that death brings.

I love your ""direct kick"" to the BS carried out by the pro-lifers.

We used to be taught that "other" countries were more violent, but we have surpassed them all. Only the ones with religious gangs still going are worse. Don't worry. We'll beat them, too. We are the country of it's all about ME. Screw community.

@GoldenMean Actually, we have not surpassed other countries in gun violence. Do a google search on "gun deaths by country" You will see that many countries...all of which have stricter gun laws than the U.S.A. have way more shootings resulting in death. [images.search.yahoo.com]

@BlueWave In my opinion education here is geared to some degree to raise fodder for the military and Peace sanctity of life is not part of that strategy.

@dahermit It amazes me that it doesn't matter how violent and deadly society can be, there are those the who will accept it, justify it, minimize it, defend it, say it is not that bad, just look at other societies.

@dahermit Oh yes you HAVE surpassed other countries by gun deaths, except for the Philippines, and a few other really lawless countries, known as Sh!thole countries.

"the U.S. has the 31st highest rate in the world: 3.85 deaths due to gun violence per 100,000 people in 2016. That was eight times higher than the rate in Canada, which had .48 deaths per 100,000 people — and 27 times higher than the one in Denmark, which had .14 deaths per 100,000."

[npr.org]

@BanjoTango By "deaths" do you include suicides?

@dahermit You can look up the links I provided "The burden of firearms—excluding self-harm and accidental deaths .... " [npr.org]

@BanjoTango Have you noticed that the "Western/Industrialized" countries that anti-gun people like to point out as having fewer gun deaths that the U.S. have less non-White populations than the U.S.? Do you think that is why they are careful to use "Western and Industrialized" when they state their statistics?

@Hugh No, it is the anti-gun people who suggest that. I am willing to compare our statistics with those of the South American and African countries and not hide behind a Caucasian only comparison.

@Hugh Gosh...my Master's Degree in History wasted! Would you mind explaining to me what "high-intensity ammunition" is? As a person who has been a bullet caster, hand loader, since the sixties, I am not familiar with that term. You may want to look up the terms: "Ad hominem Attack" before you tell me I am ignorant of how to argue.

7

It will never happen. If 25 dead little white kids didn’t move the needle on gun regulation, nothing ever will. People will continue to send empty “thoughts and prayers” and it will just get worse and worse.

I dunno,,,,,,,I have to wonder about it being in Florida. My outrage and sympathies aside and in tact, I kinda hope it somehow "hits close to home" for ANYBODY / SOMEBODY who has been fighting sensible gun laws.

Ironic that you choose a racist comment (looks at clock) 14 hours after 17 children died.

How more members here don't employ the block button is a mystery to me. I clearly have a low threshold for bullshit comments that do nothing to foster dialogue. That crap y'all can still see about "...a racist comment..." -- poof, gone. And good riddance.

@BlueWave Can you give examples of "sensable gun laws"?

@dahermit Here you go -- a few links from a quick Google search. 🙂

[forbes.com]

[nytimes.com]

[cdn.factcheck.org]

[bradycampaign.org]

[thedailybeast.com]

After you've completely read all of these things, let us know if you have a reason for our country to not implement sensible gun laws.

@BlueWave I could not access two the sites you posted and the others turned out to be anti-gun propaganda...not one specific law was proposed, just the usual rhetoric.

@dahermit Simple question for you. Are YOU against or for reform and improvement of our current gun laws. Please don't splice or twist that question. For or against?

@BlueWave You first...state the provisions of some "sensible" gun law that you would like to propose/support.

@dahermit That was fun. Not really. This is where we shake hands, smile and carry on. Cheers!

Not every mention of race is racist. In particular, pointing out that our society takes crimes against white children much more seriously than crimes against people of color. For example, every few years a story about a missing pretty white girl dominates the news for weeks. When was the last time you saw a follow up story about a missing black woman? So yes, if anything was ever going to compel lawmakers to make a change, it was the murder of a bunch of white kids. That doesn’t make ME racist. @Jack-of-scythes

@a2jennifer then don't use race in the discussion. It was a racist comment.

No way to know if your ignorance is intentional or not. The unfortunate reality is that many people assign the lives of white children more value than the lives of children of color. THAT is racism. Pointing it out is not. @Jack-of-scythes

@A2jennifer Christ on a crutch.Your argument is racist. Your word usage is racist. Your thread is racist. It is clearly impossible for you to see it.

Uh huh. It’s racist to point out racism. Ok. Done with you. @Jack-of-scythes

6

There are a lot of gun regulations already. The problem is, a lot of them aren't enforced, or aren't enforced as well as they should be, so additional regulation would make little difference. Another problem we run into is two-fold: first, we have, as a nation, almost no access to readily affordable mental health care. There should be free mental health centers in every town that people can walk into and get help, 24 hours a day. We live in a society that is putting greater and greater pressure on its citizens and they have no escape from that and no one to talk to about it. There is a culture of angry white-noise filling the eyes and ears of every person who has access to modern communications. Most of us are traumatized from childhood to begin with, and the corporations that own this nation and it's people know that if they can provide an attractive enough narrative that feeds the neuroses of the American public, they can sell more soap and boost tjose profits. It doesn't help that we are addicted to umbrage. We LOVE being angry about something. We LOVE being offended. As someone who has anger addiction issues (I'm sarcastic as fuck, and if you don't think sarcasm is a demonstration of anger, you need to think again) and who has to constantly catch myself and watch for spinning up, i can tell you that those little dopamine cookies I feed my anger-monkey are a hard habit to break. We are an angry nation, and we don't realize it, and we sure as FUCK don't talk about it to people who can help us untangle the shit in our heads. And then we snap. Which leads me to number 2) The people who do go talk to someone can be evaluated by a professional who may determine that they shouldn't be allowed to buy weapons (forget that they may have already purchased weapons years before they got beaten into a shining hate-diamond by life) but are prohibited by law from reporting that assessment because the person isn't an imminent threat to themselves or anyone else. We have gagged the people who may have been able to avert some of these tragedies. Not all, not even most, but if you can save a single life, that's a win, right?

This isn't about ready access to weapons. It's about mental health care. But that is a subtle problem, and it doesn't track well with focus groups. I can't show you a big pile of mental health care issues that have been destroyed and say, "see what our efforts have wrought? These issues will NEVER kill a person!" The problem is, the person who WOULD kill another person... well, they're still out there. And destroying every gun in the world won't stop a determined person from killing others. Guns are an easy target, but they aren't the real issue. The real issue will cost lots and lots of tax dollars to fix, and most of you lot aren't willing to stop screaming at each other from your positions and memes and slogans and buzzwords long enough to actually do something about the real problem. Just my tuppence.

I totally agree. The problem isn't guns, it's people with mental health problems.

I completely agree with you.

[snopes.com]

There have been some allegations that the information in these emails is false but to be honest I think it is true and that as soon as people caught wind of this, the media clamped down on it and censored the sh!# out of it so that the "narrative" that the extremists like ANTIFA and the SJW's could believe that Australia was better off after the new gun laws was sorely mistaken.

@Hugh " How in the hell does one get their hands on that?" The same way I did...I walked into a gun store, provided identification, and passed the NICS screen via ATF. I then used my AR-15 to continue competing in the Service Rifle Matches at my local gun club...just like thousands of others do. I switched from my M1 Garand (also an "assault rifle" ) because I am recoil-sensitive and my Garand was beating the hell out of me despite an extensive relationship with the Garand, having been one of the last people to be issued one in Basic Training in 1962. In short, AR-15's are the most common target rifle now used in High Power and Service Rifle matches.

6

Yes guns are everywhere in this country. Yes they are easy as hell to get. Yes we as a people should do something......but.... guns were just as easy to get when I was in skool maybe more so. Hell my parents had a shooting class and could carry rifles around with them. So I have to ask myself is it really just the guns?? Have we always had shootings like this and I just didn't hear about them? What the hell is going on that our kids reaction to being stressed is to shoot people? Why have skool shootings seemed to be on the increase since Columbine? I don't have the answers to this one.... I think it's something bigger than just guns.... we've always had ridiculous gun laws and insane availability so there has to be something else that I'm not seeing.

@MrLizard When I was a kid we settled things with fists. Now everyone has a gun.

4

Conservatives will always say that's not the issue. Consoling gun-huggers and hate-mongers puts money in their pockets. Their status and money are all they care about. You wonder if their own kids have to die for them to put guns in a sensible category.

Define sensible. I'm pretty sure giving up my ability to defend my self, family and property isn't sensable. We already have laws against criminals and the mentally ill from possessing guns. They haven't helped, clearly.

@jayneonacobb
Jayne are you claiming you could protect your children when they are at school because you have guns at your home? That seems unlikely to me. Many criminals can get the legal right to own guns again and right now there is a bill in Congress waiting to be approved to let folks with mental problems have access to guns.

@Anonbene no, you're making a leap in logic. I am saying that I can protect them when they are with me better with a gun, than without. I don't see a problem with rehabilitated individuals regaining their rights. That's what those bills are aimed at doing.

@jayneonacobb I believe statically it's far more likely you or your husband will murder them or vice versa and more likely the guns will get used for suicide than your idea.

@Anonbene I find your homophobic insult childish and self deprecating. Are you going to present a valid argument, or just continue to undermine your credability.

@jayneonacobb
Huh? Oh. You're one of them.

@jayneonacobb
Isn't your name Jayne?

@Anonbene if that's your view, you might as well believe in God.

@Anonbene did you see my picture? I most assuredly am not a woman.

4

You have to have a license to drive, get married, do any kind of business work in many different fields. But not to have kids or guns. That's always seemed strange to me and I worked in the firearms industry for four years before training and getting a license to be an electrician.

you can't have a drink or watch adult films but you can legally kill people in the army and make people ie babies. how fucked up is that? same in the UK in that respect.

4

As an outsider I can't understand how the right to bear arms out weighs the right to be safe.
20 miles north of me slingshots are illegal that may be a bit too far. When I was a kid there were gun shops in the city and many suburbs, they are almost non existent now. We have many people who are just as gun happy as people in the USA, but here the majority don't want them.

3

Look at tv and all the police shows, next the movies and again the action movies. Our children are just introduced to this stuff over and over again and they do not realize that guns kill and that it isn't like in the movies and tv. Next we let the stupid NRA do it's thing. I am a gun owner who would vote for stricter gun laws any day. How ever the laws should be proposed by the gun owners because those who are not owners themselves put stupid laws into effect not knowing what really works,. Magzine size yes,carry permits yes,background checks yes, domestic violence remove weapons yes, Waiting period to purchase guns yes,

3

Hmmm - seems to be something very wrong in the US. Its as though people think that the second amendment is Gospel, and can't be changed.

"More Americans have died from gunshots in the last 50 years than in all of the wars in American history.

Since 1968, more than 1.5 million Americans have died in gun-related incidents, according to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. By comparison, approximately 1.2 million service members have been killed in every war in U.S. history,"

[nbcnews.com]

3

There so lacking in gun regulations and aren't willing to change them for the common man. gun sales go up when this happens and that suits them as they don't really give a fuck.

it suits the people getting the money. I mean look at the last shooting in las vagus, a gun-rich state. I don't believe anyone in the crowd returned fire and what would have happened if they had? how did owing guns help anyone? why the fuck can you buy things like machine guns and bigger. surely all you need for home protection is a pistol or better still a tazer and a dog or alarm and good secure locks.

@LeighShelton I read an interview with one of the bodyguards of the performer and he said that they were armed but couldn't fire back because they did not initially realize where the shots were coming from and because they knew the cops would be looking for people with guns.

no doubt and part of my point about being armed.

3

Consider. What if we talked about the white victims of gun violence the way conservatives talk about blacks being killed by guns.

A bunch of white kids in Florida being killed by a white kid, meh, so what, it's just what "those people" do. No big loss.

3

Honestly, it would take screening for violence and people living with those in that category who have guns being civilly liable if their weapons were used in such a manner.

I think the civil liability is the key to changing the attitude about guns and I think it can be passed if enough Democrats get elected.

with so much money on the table, it will never change.

3

they will continue to say "this isn't the time or place to talk about it" and offer "thoughts and prayers" and NOTHING will ever be done, it seems that Americans love their guns too much for any change to gun laws to happen. If they even put ONE thing into place eg. a waiting period before getting a gun, or.. IDK I'm Canadian, so I really don't have any ideas but someone in the USA must have some suggestions.

You're right..
Marco Rubio Has Accepted Millions From the NRA But Refers to Florida School Shooting as 'Inexplicable' [splinternews.com]

Guns? Well, I was a teacher in NYC (26 years). How many pieces of sharpened glass / wood, long steel nails, sharpened metal and plastic rulers, box-cutters, screwdrivers....do you think were confiscated by the SG? Hundreds.
No, are not the guns....but the people.

3

It's guns in the hands of people who are unstable. And guns.

The mentally ill just aren't followed the way they once were. (Cut backs and changes in how we treat chronically mentally ill).

This student was expelled and known to be some sort of threat. And still?
In the old days he'd have been committed until he was stable.

Granted people can completely fail on meds. when released.
The combination though? Deadly.

I worked in Mental Health in the 80's and 90's and we saw this coming - and it was entirely out of our hands.

Mental health is not the root cause. That’s a sick scapegoat. It’s those with violent tendencies that do this. Violent ideation may be expressed in SOME mentally ill but hardly the majority. Let’s try to not hunt witches.

@ScientistV I didn't read RavenCT's post as a witch hunt at all. I think her perspective is valid.

@ScientistV This again was a "Troubled" student. I do believe some acts are strictly violence but shooting people you don't know en mass Might be mental illness. You are entitled to have your own views on this.

@ScientistV when I say mentally, I mean a 'brain disorder' of some kind! Anything, wrong with brain is 'mental illness.'

@ScientistV Don't you think that "violent tendency" is a mental problem? Wait, I am not justifying this horrid behavior.

@ScientistV Also worked with the chronically mentally ill - it goes beyond Ideation into Intent more than you'd like to believe.

@MrLizard I used to do Mental status exams.

And yes you can't be viewing reality too clearly (and we all do that differently anyway) when you decide to take out folk you don't even know. IMHO.

But so far in these mass school shootings I've later heard "Some sort of mental illness was diagnosed". There might have been people concerned (There were in this case!). And still nothing was done.

Living in CT also makes me hyper aware. Having a nephew at a school where there was a Mass Stabbing? Makes me worried because people can always find some sort of weapon.

There is no easy solution for this - but we have to work this problem.

Excepting that people often frame this to get away from reforms by claiming “the mentally ill” (as a witch hunt and smoke screen to the actual problems.) the stats don’t lie. Gun violence has a higher correlation with abusers than diagnosed mentally ill people. No one is jumping the bandwagon of, “oh he beats his wife, take his gun.” Per ideation versus intent, yes intent is key but in layterms that was suffice (ideation) because that is still in a closer sphere than the other assertion in the thread.

So as studying criminal statistics can spot causative trends— and as some of us grasp meta data in broader cases of discernment, we can do a brief recap— kid had a history of threatening the school. This is a marker for violence. This was severe enough to get him expelled— again, strong indicator for some kind of escalation. This is not a mental illness issue, it’s a matter of not going with the facts presented in a strong enough response to block tragedy. Mental health reform is absolutely great and necessary, but the mentally ill are more likely to be abused, not be abusers. Anyone claiming to work in mental health spheres who do not have that basic concept of math/stats has no business espousing dangerous myths to these at risk populations nor disservicing them by working to alienate them further in the pretense of doing their job.

@ScientistV Strangely I think access to weapons is a massive issue.
I also believe in Mass Shootings there has almost always been a proven thread of mental illness involved.
I worked in that field. There are reasons I believe that.
It's not either - or. It's both.
In individual shootings I'd agree with anger issues. Not with Mass Shootings. There's something else going on when you detach that much from reality.

2

The issue has and always will be

  1. a lack of parenting
  2. the presence of mental illness

Gun laws don't stop mass shootings. Australia is a good example. The port Arthur massacre was done using illegal guns. 35 killed, 23 wounded. Done using illegal weapons.

Gun laws don't stop gun violence. Good people who are armed stop gun violence.

Here's an idea. Let teachers have guns with rubber bullets located in their desks for emergencies.

Because we cannot stop gun violence, we can only mitigate the risk using control measures.

It would be ideal to remove the hazard but that is impossible.

The Port Arthur massacre of 28–29 April 1996 was a mass shooting in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded. Following the spree, the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, introduced strict gun control laws within Australia and formulated the National Firearms Programme Implementation Act 1996, restricting the private ownership of semi-automatic rifles, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns as well as introducing uniform firearms licensing (Wikipedia) These laws have greatly curtailed gun violence. But we don't have people in public office willing to go up against the NRA...it is a fucking shame, all this slaughter.

Soon after that shooting, the Australian government enacted strict gun laws and there hasn't been a mass shooting since. Check your sources, it worked. That was in 1996, We are in 2017. I like their result.

Ummm...Port Arthur massacre was BEFORE Australia's gun control. Sure, the guns used at Port Arthur were illegal. But Port Arthur was not Australia's only "innocent" gun deaths BEFORE Australia's gun control policy. Australia, I think, has not had "innocent" gun deaths AFTER Australia's gun control policy. There's been gun deaths, sure - but not from a person who just decided to randomly shoot innocent bystanders.

EDIT: 13 mass shootings in the 18 years before Port Arthur. 0 mass shootings since Port Arthur. If you believe in stats and data, what do you think was the change after Port Arthur that affected that statistics the most?

I've been thinking rubber bullets for a while now. They won't kill a bystander if inaccurate and could have a chance at stopping a perpetrator.

Lancer. I can't wrap my head around that idea...if you have been exposed to a lot of mental illness, you would find that it is not controllable by the average person! They kill people a LOT, because they are trying to relieve their unimaginable pain...psychic pain!

As a teacher, no, please don't give me a gun. The answer to gun violence is not more guns. If you want to give teachers something, how about the resources we need to actually do our job, and then maybe we'll have an educated and empathetic populace eventually. : sigh : I can only dream...

@noworry28 Australia never had 315 million guns as does the USA. When gun owners say: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.", do you think they do not mean it? Do you really believe that with 315 million guns in civilian hands that a few silly laws will keep a gun out the hands of someone who is going to do a shooting?

@Freedompath Yes but permitting them to freely do so? Also wrong.

@RavenCT ...I wonder if you have first hand experience with some mentally ill people? Help has never been easy to find, and the mentally ill person has rights and authorities error on the side of their rights! It is very complicated! But, for sure... if guns weren't romancitized that would be a great start! I have stories to tell...

@cava Sure it reduced the number of mass shootings but it didn't stop people from dying. The problem never was and never has been the guns, it is the people using them.

The reason no body will do anything about this problem is because it is good political leaverage for elections. The politicians generally don't really care about the people, most just want to get in, get their pension and get out as fast as they can.

[snopes.com]

Drug use, assaults, break ins, rapes. All have increased since 1996.
Personally I am in favour of allowing women to carry pistols with rubber bullets as a preventative measure against assaults and such, but that's just me.

Also in china, 1 man killed 30 people. More than Port Arthur. How you may ask? With kitchen knives. He thought about how to kill lots of people, waited for rush hour on the train and cut them down one by one.

So again, guns are not the problem, it is the people. You NEED to fix the people.

@noworry28 there have been mass shootings, the media just kept it quiet. There has also been an increase in crime. But don't let the facts get in the way of a nice lie.

@RavenCT it wasn't 0 but sure, believe the lie. The media covered them up quite nicely

@Freedompath then jusst lock them up. Bring back mental institutions. Easy solution. If someone is a potential threat to society then just isolate the threat. Simple

@damonca Teachers are where it starts. If there is a lack of education amongst the populace then you need only look at the failures of the education system.

Also I find a lack of resolve to live quite disappointing. If there was a chance of you being killed and you could have a less-than-lethal weapon by your side but chose not to, then don't be surprised when you and your class end up a little worse for wear.

@Freedompath I've had some mentally ill people in my school. All we do is be nice to them and make sure they feel wanted. You know, to stop them from hating us and wanting all of us to die. Because we are decent human beings.

Also just to let you people know, criminals in Australia are not safe. My school friend was waiting at a busstop after sport when he was robbed at gun point.

So If a young 14 year old boy is robbed by an 19 year old with a gun. That means that gun control failed right. Never mind the drive by shootings in Sydney or Melbourne. Never mind the fact that gang crime is increasing. The fact that crime is increasing and the number of guns on the street is increasing is just "an anomaly" right?

@Lancer "here have been mass shootings, the media just kept it quiet" - are you just quoting NRA propaganda. ? since Port Arthur there have been 3 "mass" shootings of 10 people since April 1996 - to 2016. As opposed to 8 in the previous 10 years killing around 90 people.

@Lancer Again you are repeating lies by Fox news. Do your research. Real research. Fox news is not research.

@Lancer I hope that you are just venting your anger...because your statement is cruel and callous! Mental illness, is a brain functionality..., when addressed and treated early on, mentally ill people can function in society! It is so easy to throw our hands up and scream lock'um up! Treating mental illness takes time, I my self was in treatment over a 25 year period and I only wanted to kill myself on a regular basis! You need to spend some time studying the new research on the brain, then you might be of help, instead of just throwing words around...I know your pain, but you need to access your logic and reasoning!

@Freedompath Yes I'm very well educated on the subject. It's what my degree is in.
Also was on the first Emergency Mobile crisis unit in Massachusetts. (one of the first in the Nation) for the mentally ill.
I've never said "Lock them up" - not permanently. But when someone is completely not in touch with reality and hears voices telling them to do atrocious things - I'm unsure what else works?
We don't seem to have answered that question.
If meds. don't work - what else is there?
Yes there are supervised programs. Sometimes it's not enough.

@Freedompath Some mentally ill people can function in society.
Catching it early does not always happen.
And not everyone can be treated to a level where they are safe for others to be around.
Psychosis is very different from depression.
And depressives can become psychotic.

@RavenCT... but, I HAVE life long experience (still), with family members who killed and those that created havoc with family and society, and it takes all of us, supporting the system! I have none of your experience...I have lived it for 78 yrs here! But, I also have studied probably 100s of books and research on my own, because I knew what I was up against! But, it is like Dr Scott Peck, wrote...in order to study evil, you must immerse yourself into it...and that is a dangerous place! I believe that is true with any mental illness! I would never have chosen to be in the mist of so much mental illness...it cost me most of my productive life span. Book learning will never answer all the mental health questions!

but they did change the laws drastically after/because of that shooting. just saying.

@Lancer I don't know what you are talking about? I didn't quote 0 anything?

@Freedompath If you are quoting Scott Peck than you believe in Evil.
I find most of his ideas a bit um? Well it's a theory.

Yes there are people without conscience. (Also a category of mental illness).

You did ask if I had any experience? I did reply yes and stated credentials and experience - I don' t know what more you would like as proof of true knowledge.

We are all entitled to our opinions.

@dahermit I know it is impossible to remove every gun from gun owners. It is past the point of no return for that idea. However there should be some sensible attempts to pass and enforce laws to make it harder for dangerous people to get their hands on military style rifles. I can go to a gun show and buy a gun without any background check from any private individual, or go across state line and get a rifle without being checked. I am just saying that there should be a better attempt to make screen the people getting weapons. I do not mind waiting for a few days on a background check to make sure that I am responsible enough to own a weapon.

@noworry28 You do not have to "...wait a few days on a background check...". The "I" in "NICS" means "instant"...with computers and phone access to the BATF, it only takes a matter of a few minutes to determine if there is any reason to deny a person a gun. You are correct that privet sales between individuals can still be made sans background checks. However, that is not a common scenario in the mass shootings in the last few years. For instance, in the Columbine shooting, the guns were obtained illegally from an acquaintance of the boys. In the Sandy Hook shooting, the kid (shooter) access his mother's gun, who had obtained it legally. Also, the Los Vegas shooter had passed the NICS check, so there was not privet sale outside a gun show, etc. So while closing the "gun show loophole" sounds good, it would not have stopped the mass shootings. So your post begs the question: What "better attempt" can be made to keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people, other than the existing NICS check? When the anti-gun people pushed for the NICS, they said it would prevent all the gun murders...but obviously didn't. Nevertheless, hope srings eternal, so what "common sense gun law" do you have in mind?

@RavenCT I am not trying to put you in any position what so ever... to prove yourself...nor am i wanting to put myself up as an expert...but, if all my study was put together with my experience, I would hold a master degree! When everyone else was out doing other things, I studied. And I had many different qualified therapist and psychiatrist, that i worked with over 25 years! To be perfectly honest, I hate tooting my 'anything!' But. I was highly respected by the professionals in my pursuit of sanity and knowledge! My search was unlike my peers (and my family, had no use for treatment). I do not believe in evil, as an entity! But I believe that we commit acts that are evil. I want to be taken seriously...i just might know something about mental illness! Even if I don"t hold the credentials. It has been my experience that no one has all the answers...not even the experts! If they did, I believe we would see more progress toward the over all better mental health in our society! I felt that my knowledge was in question...which does not bode well to support your knowledge and experience...owing that you are a professional!

@Freedompath With your family history I am sure you are quite knowledgeable.

I think right now we need both reasonable gun control laws - and more Mental health workers and programs in this country.

Some people need to live in programs that help them breach the abyss.
More and more long term programs and counseling help has lost funding over the last 3 or 4 decades.

Yes we closed the Mental Hospitals where so much horror went on - but we never figured out a replacement.

For some there needs to be a replacement.

I'm sure you would agree as you had family members who became violent.
It's impossible to deal well with that at home.

That's part of what Mobile Teams are a part of. And we worked hand in hand with Police who had also been trained.

@dahermit The three day wait is if the FBI has a backlog and does not run the background check, than the gun dealer has to release the weapon and the three day cooling off period in Florida when purchasing a firearm.

@RavenCT I surely agree with everything you said, but the police are not of the right mind set... to be helpful. Have you not seen the number of mentally ill people who have been killed in the last few years by the police? There have been 1200 police killings in the last year! Police are military...they are to much a part of the problem! I got to kmow my sheriff, personally, after the police did a raid on the wrong house and threw a 'bomb' in a baby's crib and blew a hole in it's chest and face, i have forgotten if it was 9mons or 19 months old...but it was a horrible incident here! My sheriff's intellectual capacity would never be helpful for mentally people! NEVER! This was after my incident. A few years back, when I called the help hot line, because the 'bottom fell out'...(I had not been taking my meds, and in the last 5 yrs, I have had little support for mental health.) So I called a NMHI, hot line... I needed a hand up and after talking to a gal, and realizing that I needed to get back on meds, I knew I would be ok. But the hot line called the police and 2 officers showed up. The first one came in and i was crying and as he was looking around my place, another officer showed up and the minute I laid eyes on him I knew he was not 'right'...first he came over toward me and angrily and hatefully told me...'get over there and sit down.' At least I had the presence of mind, to DEMAND, that the first officer get that man out of my place! I did not know my rights at that time and so I was taken to the emergency room, where I was kept all night, treated lIke a criminal...not allowed to contact my family and had 3 pages of blood work done... all of which came back, negative for drugs and every thing else within "normal range.' Yes...this was really helpful for a person already suffering, NOT! But, that is not the important part of my story...the second officer that hatefully ordered me to sit down, had to be shot and killed by the sheriff within that same year! He had already killed his ex and her man friend and was about to kill his own daughter! And we have had several other police incidents here...no the police want be of help. This is just a very small town, 2 main short streets, 2 miles in either direction! Our mayor who was a doctor and a highly involved religious person, shot and killed himself over a year ago! Two older men shot and killed each other from across their street! There are many more incidents, I just don't feel like coming up with them at the moment! I want to stress again this is a tiny town and the county isn't that populated either! I have only lived here 7 years. But, I am always paying attention! Deeply! That is part of why I know stuff! I know how complicated the mental health issue is...but at least in the past there was decent MH treatment, now it is all privatized and even the professionals are not what I experienced, when I sought treatment.

@Freedompath Just saying. If we had support networks like "families" which were raised on discipline, morals and values. Then maybe the world wouldn't be so emotional and messed up.

I've had to deal with a lot of family issues over the years but I've always been strong throughout it all. I talked to my father, mother and sister alone and I managed to keep us together.

Most people just give up, get a divorce, fight over custody, etc. Causing more unnecessary mental stress.

If we can't control our emotions then we are worse than animals. We need self-restraint and control. We need order and discipline. Or we just get bloodshed and pain.

I personally don't mind though. I just solve my problems and help those family and friends around me. Because I am a decent human being.

@Lancer I agree, in a perfect world, all families need to be together and supportive of one another, but some families are better off, separated. I my self, choose a partner before I knew who I was. Even without the alcoholism, it was a pitiful match that produced 5 children and I was brought up to believe that you stayed in a marriage...period! My children got a lot of 'imprinting' due to my misery in that relationship. And, that is not counting the distortion from the alcoholic side. My successful adult children struggle with self worth and pain that interferes with coping in their adult life, simply because i could not be fully present when each child needed me the most. On the other hand, if I had stayed in that marriage, I likely, would not be here today. Religions, are not geared to teach coping skills, they mostly ...can only offer an altered state of consciousness, a kind of fantasy...that in my mind does not exist! And, the world is mostly religious. They present a mostly black and white view of what living in the real world looks like. This 'altered state' did not work for me and I lay exposed to the world and could not protect myself, because I did not have the skills to do that. It took years to develop those skills. But, I want to point out that I passed on my heartache and pain inadvertently...to my young children!

@Freedompath I understand that relationships can be volatile and difficult to have. I realise that they can cause pain and suffering as well as hapiness and enjoyment.

But due to the way society has become, where people have no empathy towards others. Where people have no self-control, no discipline, no courtesy towards others. We live in a world where people lack proper morals and ethics. People lack integrity and accept ignorance because it is easy.

That's life. I chose to be different and I had my eyes opened at a young age. Racially bullied in school, living with a loving family but also a broken family. We all have problems, the only difference is that some of us have the strength and integrity to fix those problems as best we can.

I am selfless. For years I put the interests of others ahead of myself, then one day my dad sat me down and told me the truth. "Treat people nicely but don't let them use you like they used me. Be your own man and do what you know is right".

We need to be strong, not out of some stupid moral or ethical obligation, but out of necessity. If we stay as we are, the problems just compound and never get solved. That is the point we are at today.

We have produced countless children who produce more children who know nothing about anything. They are ignorant, agressive and selfish. I see it every day, the way that people treat eachother, the way they talk, their lack of responsibility.

Society is very very broken and it needs to be fixed.

Personally I don't care since I only look after myself and my family now and only help others if I have time and nothing to lose. I will raise my children to be strong, intelligent and disciplined because those are necessary characteristics for a human being to have. But as far as I'm concerned, society has produced many low quality people.

@BanjoTango Gun crime was going down steadily before 1996, now its back up. Therefore the legislation failed.

The best thing to do would be to allow certain people with legitimate reason (women walking home late, old people in their homes alone, off duty police officers, legal firearms owners, etc.) to buy and concealed carry pistols with rubber bullets. It works as a deterrant and in the event of a shooting, even if you accitantally hit a bystander whilst shooting at the attacker, they won't die.

Simple deterrant that can be easily introduced.

However the aim was never to keep the citizens safe. The aim is to keep turning citizens into vitcims. If even 1 child or teacher in Florida has a pistol with rubber bullets in their bag, then maybe they could have saved 10 lives. Isn't that worth fighting for?

@Lancer "Gun crime was going down steadily before 1996, now its back up. Therefore the legislation failed." Sorry ? - That's just not accurate. The data for gun crime isnt even readily available from the poilce, but what we DO have is "Homicide - Deaths by Gunshot wound" - WHICH SHOWS A STEADY DECLINE POST PORT ARTHUR [abc.net.au]

@BanjoTango hahaha, you trust the ABC? It is funded by a government party, the environmentally conservative Greens party?

I'm sorry but this is just amazing. I never thought anyone would be so gullible as to go to the ABC. I literally watch their news as a substitute for the comedy channel.

In all seriousness, have you not seen what's been happening lately? Sydney siege, drive by shootings, increasing gang crime, muggings and robberies of people in their homes.

There was 1 police officer who released the truth about the gun crime statistics in 1997. He was quickly silenced and the media called him a "liar" but here's the real kicker. Why would a police officer who has sworn to protect the public and do so by telling them the truth. Why would he lie? He has nothing to gain, only negative media attention.

He was a whistle blower, warning us of the truth and for that he was silenced.

So next time you want to use "statistics" from the comedy channel just try thinking again.

@Lancer Sounds like a conspiracy theorist to me. Quote ANY news source you like, there are NO hidden massacres. The ABC is one of the most reputable, agency in the world, and anyone who tries to belittle one of the truly independent, logic thinking news agency in the world is poorly informed. You have quoted ONE lone police officer. Please feel free to name him and what he said. If the media called him a liar, that's a damn fine recommendation to me.

@BanjoTango

I honestly just find it funny that you think the ABC is independent or logical.

They literally just blackmailed the government over those classified documents. They are an extension of the greens party.

That's why I just love the hilarious content they show. Even their coverage of the Sydney siege had me laughing at how bad they covered up the details of that incident.

Here's a tip. Governments lie and often they have hidden agendas that end up screwing over the average citizen.

Don't be so gullible or trusting. Think for yourself.

@Lancer Yeah, yeah - the whole world is a conspiracy.

@BanjoTango No seriously. I hate conspiracy theories, but when facts don't add up...

I just don't trust what I'm spoon fed, I like to think for myself and form my own opinions based on logical reasoning and primary sources of information.

Unfortunately people who do this are very rare and most don't understand the value of thinking for oneself.

Those who beget history are destined to repeat it. But those who know only false history are already repeating it.

Break the cycle, rise above, choose science and logic to show you the way.

@Lancer "when facts don't add up.." When you don't actually state any facts, they can't ever compute. You didn't even argue why those figures were wrong. When you try to pass off one of the few truly independent and reliable news source in the world as unreliable, you paint yourself as just another non-credible source of information.

@BanjoTango

Fact, ABC news is funded by the Greens political party
Fact, ABC news had access to classified government documents that the government were worried would have secret information.
Fact, they made a deal with the government in exchange for the documents.

You can't just trust the media, you need to think for yourself.

@Lancer I beg to differ. Home is where is starts. Teachers can't do everything. And having a weapon of any kind in the room only increases the chances of something bad happening.

@damonca

  1. I agree with you 100%, home is where the problem starts. What I am saying is that due to the negligence either intentional or unintentional by the parents, schools must assist in mitigating the effects of bad parenting if we are to stop this problem. Granted that it is the parents fault, they will not be able to fix the problem they made because they can't even see a problem at all. Admitting their child has problems is like asking parents to confirm they have failed, they don't want to think like that.

As far as the 2nd point. Yes and no. If you think like that then I guess more weapons = more likelihood of bad things happening. Let's use every military base in the US as an example. How many mass shootings have there been in US army bases by teenage shooters this year? Or what about police stations? Or what about gun clubs?

Point is, if you know there are armed people, you won't attack. You wouldn't stick your hand on the stove if you knew it was going to hurt, same with shooting innocent people. You wouldn't do it if you knew they were armed.

1

Easy access to firearms and insufficient regulation, obviously. But there's something deeper about the mentality of a certain segment of the US population.

One thing I found incredibly telling was a press snippet from a manufacturer of 'bump stocks.' If that needs any explanation, it's the device that the Las Vegas shooter used to turn some of his semi-automatic weapons into effectively fully automatic ones.

On this news hitting the press, the manufacturer was swamped with demand for their product to the point where they couldn't keep up. When enough people to wipe out a company's entire inventory look at 58 dead and are less interested in the loss of life than in the idea of an accessory that can turn a gun they are allowed to own into one they normally wouldn't be, that's your problem, right there.

Ultimately, human life has different value in different societies. In most civilised Western societies, that value is high. Go to other (for example, certain African or Middle Eastern) countries and the value of human life is much lower. Not to us, but to them. The US seems to have a split personality over this. On the one hand, it doesn't value human life highly enough to stop people going round shooting each other on a whim. At the same time, it reacts to every mass shooting (defined as 3 or more fatalities, I think) as though it has never felt pain like this before.

1

I think there might be a large correlation between our religiousness and mass shootings.

1

Will never happen. Sadly the NRA runs this country. Just send your useless fucking prayers.

flora Level 3 Feb 14, 2018

wanna bet?

1

What has "industrialized" got to do with it? Usually, the anti-gun rhetoric uses "western nation" as the term to put a nefarious connotation on it. But, that does not work well because it can be interpreted as racist and also inaccurate inasmuch as several central and South American countries have far more shooting deaths than the U.S.

1

I don't think it's the NRA but the gun manufacturers that profit from the propaganda. I also see a connection with the religious wrong who keep saying the problem with schools is because of prayer being banned. To them it's not about guns but the absence of prayer.

To these people there must also be guns in heaven. Hell is a place without them.

Actually, when you think about it this is worse than the first Valentines day massacre. VDMII

There were only 7 in that shooting and all were grownups

1

Has the shooter said "why" he wanted to kill everybody?

1

I wonder what so many people think Hillary would have actually done if elected. How would her policies be bad? Do you see any good ones? These people are still not monarchs, people, even Trump--though he thinks he is.

1

Yes...what politician is going to step up and make a difference on what this country needs to do about guns and MENTAL Illness! The mentally ill people can't just be pushed out to the 'edge of town!'

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