Your "Mind" Isn't Confined to Your Brain. Isn't this an interesting idea? As an atheist / agnostic, I've always had difficulty accepting the notion of non-physical existence. However, I've also had the experience of receiving knowledge from unknown (and virtually impossible) sources. So as usual, I fall back on my time-trusted conclusion: I simply don't have enough proof one way or another. So, I don't "believe" one way or another. But I remain curious.
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"... had the experience of receiving knowledge from unknown (and virtually impossible) sources." And you are content to leave us guessing was to what you are talking about?
dahermit
Level 7
Sep 20, 2020
5
I was hoping to avoid that. But yes, I'll give you one example. In 1994, I "received" some kind of knowledge from an ancestor. He was Swedish, and he managed to communicate his name to me. But my parents and grandparents (now long dead) told me all of our ancestors were German. And I accepted that for my whole life, and it was "confirmed" by Ancestry.com, etc. But lo and behold, turns out my Swedish ancestors migrated to Germany centuries ago. And then I learned that Ancestry.com (and others) doesn't actually tell you where your ancestors came from. Instead, it just tells you where other people live who have DNA like yours. Big difference. Afterward, I did some more research and found a whole group of people in Sweden who have the same name as the ancestor who "visited" me.
Bottom line: It's all bullshit. It's not possible. I must be delusional. Or maybe I'm just completely insane. No matter what really happened, I'm just reporting honestly something that I experienced, regardless of how it happened. But right after it happened (at 4:00 one morning), I went straight to my office and wrote about it for half a day. So, my experience is documented. I kept that to myself for 20 years, and then decided to write a book about it. Because screw it, I really don't care whether anybody believes me or not. And I'd also just as soon nobody reads my book until after I die because I don't want to hear a bunch of people telling me how crazy I am.
@mischl You have claimed to use hyponogogia frequently.F.O.
This link claims that humans have 100,000 dreams in their lifetime. People with hyponogogic hallucinations I am sure have much, much more.[mentalfloss.com].
It is estimated that the population of the earth is 7.5 billion times 100,000 dreams each is a very big number.
Hyponogogic Hallucinations are most often concordent with reality. Do you really think that many of the dreams will not have facts and events that are actually true even though they are just dreams? Is it not possible that some dreams may be "hits"?
IT HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE DAMN TIME. It is nothing special or unique.
It is just delusions that are very detailed and happen to have some facts that we could not know about. It is not special, spiritual or cool. F.O.
What happened is TO BE EXPECTED! When someone who actually does have Narcopolepsy specifically Hypnogogic hallucinations EVERY DAY it makes life very difficult. Throw your damn book in the fireplace, get over your woo and stop bullshiting about stuff you have no idea about. P.S. in conjunction with my other reponse to you on this post F.O.
"Your "Mind" Isn't Confined to Your Brain."
Really? Proof, please. Every animal I've seen without a head/brain appeared to have no cognitive function left (I grew up on a farm, I've seen a few). I'm pretty convinced by the proof I've seen that ALL your mind is confined to your brain.
AtheistInNC
Level 7
Sep 21, 2020
4
I woke up this morning with knowledge that while I was asleep I was somewhere else. Is there any chance of others feeling this same way? Make you a bet that whatever is in their minds it would have to come from their experiences and not mine.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Sep 21, 2020
4
Really? Do you always have to come on this site and make since? Really?
There's a psychological thing called a "vivid dream" which, after waking up, seems just as real as real life. Some of them have such realistic details that they're difficult to distinguish from reality.
I've done some self hypnosis work which is interesting. Ever driving somewhere and realized that you don't remember the last couple miles because your mind was busy thinking of something else? That's a brief episode of self hypnosis. The mind is capable of multitasking and we can expand that ability with practice. It's kinda fun.
Larimar
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
2
On a unrelated topic but somewhat related, have you noticed how quickly we can hear a noise in the bush and quickly spot and identify it? We have many animal senses but hardly notice where they come from.
Yes, I'm a big user of self hypnosis...which is almost the same as meditation. I also use hypnagogia on a frequent basis.
@mischl Really you use hypnagogia? Just how do you do this and why the hell would you want to? Do you really know what it is like to have it? I am calling bullshit on this one. It is harmful, dangerous, and a horrable thing to have. You really would want to induce delusions that you can not differenciate from reality? You simply can't USE it for anything. Stop glorifying and lying about a real condition that is extremely difficult to live with.
Do you know what it is really like to not know what memories are real?
Do you know what it is like to make life choices on memories that were not real?
What it is like to have to ask your close family members constantly if things you did really happened?
Do you know what it is like to not know that your memory is a delusion that seemed so real that you don't know to ask if something happened because it is an actual memorie just like things that did happen?
Do you know what it is like to never get real sleep because sleeping pills make it worse? In short F.O.
This is the equilivant of pretending to be an amputee and telling everyone that is a great way to be! Again F.O.
Yes I know there is alot of woo on this sight but hyponogogic hallucinations are not cool, fun or anything that anyone WANTS to do. It is irrsponsable to make light of this type of narcolepsy. It is real and not woo. Again F.O.
Most of the time you can't remember the dream when you come out of the R.E.M. state so what good would it be? Instead the dreams are filed away as memories that may not be recalled for years. There is nothing enlightening about it. Again F.O.
Do you know what it is like to be a child that can rarely sleep because the "Monsters" are real things that you see while you are awake and paralyzed only to have your parents tell you it was just a dream when you know you were awake? F.O.
Do you know what it is like to loose friends because you remember them doing bad things to you that never happened only to realize it decades later? F.O,
Do you know what it is like to have lived 40 years of your life not knowing that a great deal of your memories never happened? F.O.
Finally, do you know what it is like to grow up in a fundamentist extremeist cult and have a REAL JESUS EXERIENCE as a 15 year old that made you even hyper religious only to realize when you were 40 that it was a delusion? Really, F.O.
I am sure you are normally a fine gentalmen. But you have no idea about what you are talking about. I am awake right now responding to this as the condition will not allow me to sleep as the hallucinations are keeping me awake. You think its cool and fun not to be able to sleep from the hallucinations. You think its just great to hallucinate every day? Again F.O.
This condition is nothing to make light of, pretend to have, or glorify! F.O.
@DavidLaDeau Thank you. (I guess.) You have invested a lot of time and energy to make me wrong. Sorry, but I do not have the time and energy to debate you. I have tried to prove NOTHING by my posts. But apparently, you are trying to prove that I am wrong. Best wishes to you.
@mischl No I was attempting to show that what you said was errent. It obviously is very personal to me. None the less I do believe you a a fine sincere fellow and wish you the best. Just hit a sore spot no hard feelings. I will admit I did come down hard on you.
@DavidLaDeau Yes, you weren't the first, and I'm sure you won't be the last. I felt empathy from your descriptions of the suffering you are enduring. I wish I were in a position to help. The greatest thing about my Zen background is I enjoy wonderful, resting sleep. The old monk who trained me gave me a lifelong gift. I've been able to pass it on to maybe 5 or 6 people...that I know of. Many of the old masters report that only 2 or 3 out of a hundred student "get it." So I guess I shouldn't feel like a total failure.
@mischl I am glad you are helping people! Meditation is like no other experience. When I was young my preacher taught me to meditate under the guise of Christian religion. Of course it was not called meditation as that was "Satanic" so it was called being close to god. Thank you for your gracious responses to my vicious reply. Perhaps I have made a friend despite myself.
@DavidLaDeau I know all to well how to recognize a person in pain. Hey, stab me and I yell like hell, just like anybody. About 62 years ago I was very close to taking the 9 mm. path to peace. Then I learned to control my mind. But I was lucky...I was one of the 2 or 3 out of a hundred. And my girlfriend at that time dragged me to see her meditation teacher. The rest, as they say, is history.
@mischl Damn that is a story. I am glad you came out okay. Yeah I did blow off a little steam. Thank you for being a kind person.
Scientists have foudn that the human brian has dozens of "processing centers", which work behind conscious thought.
When you contemplate a problem and then stop thinking about it for a while and sudenly the answer appears in your mind, it is because part of your brain kept working on the problem outside of consciousness. The answer didn't come from outside yourself.
Intuition is just getting some direction from the unconscious working parts of your brain.
snytiger6
Level 9
Sep 21, 2020
3
I might get flamed for saying this but I think that the trees communicate with us. I think they care about us and if we are receptive they send messages to us that we are not fully aware of. That might (possibly) be the reason that some people get a feeling something bad is going to happen and suddenly the phone rings and it is a message saying that there was a death in the family. Or it may just be a coincidence.
MyTVC15
Level 7
Sep 20, 2020
2
Our exposure to communications are the reason we hear those stories. Out of eight billion people on this planet, there is very likely a person who is feeling something "bad" is going to happen and then the phone rings. Two hundred years ago, we didn't hear stories of this sort. Not because there were no phones but because communication between humans was not like it is now. We were exposed to a limited number of people.
@PondartIncbendog I still think it is the trees. I do not worship them, but I appreciate them tremendously.
@MyTVC15 Our existence is dependent on the trees.
@PondartIncbendog Tree are the planet respiratory system-viruses are it's immune system. We are a parasite.
Yes, I like trees. Sometimes after trying unsuccessfully to have a conversation with a Trump supporter, I go outside and talk to one of my oak trees. They are much more understanding.
Over the years, I have learned to trust my gut. Some call it intuition. Often my gut feeling was shown to be true.
The human brain/body connection is powerful.
LiterateHiker
Level 9
Sep 20, 2020
3
Your mind gets confused because it can imagine not being confined to your brain, that's enough to start arguments right there. Your mind, is wrong.
Willow_Wisp
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
3
My mind has been wrong SO many times.
@mischl They all have...mine too.
But minds are dependent on brains. Have you any evidence that organisms without brains or inanimate objects have minds?
demifeministgal
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
2
There's plenty of evidence to show that a human "mind" includes nerve and memory cells in quite a few locations of the body.
@mischl I have never heard such a thing. Where can I learn about it and what is this called or is this more of your woo?
@DavidLaDeau I completed a master's program in consciousness studies in 1978. At that time, there was evidence (research based) about "primordial memory," which exists all through nature. Certain birds, African wildebeests, and others were found to exhibit knowledge passed (presumably via DNA) from parents or ancestors. Googling primordial memory today, I don't find much.
Oh, I answer the wrong question. Sorry. You're asking a neurological question. Yes, there are numerous places in the human body where memory cells have been discovered. For instance, memory cells have been discovered in the stomach, heart, and spine. There's quite a bit of information available about that.
@mischl Okay a link to the papers, studies, damn an article from a rag mag? Even if there were Identacle cells say in the stomach, I highly doubt that they are in any way used in brain function, can you show studies that prove that that is the case?
@DavidLaDeau
there's has been an interesting study on slime mold, don't have a link but I'm sure if you Google it you'll find it.
@MrDragon I looked it up and could not find anything. Perhaps I used the wrong key words in my ignorance.
@DavidLaDeau
Really? I just Google it and got a shit load of info about it.
@MrDragon whst key word did you use. I find it hard to believe that I partually think with my stomach or heart but I have been accused of thinking witth something else! Really, I would apprecate a link or something to go on, this is outside my expertise.
@DavidLaDeau
LOL, I understand. Perhaps I'm thinking in the wrong deriction, however, my train of thought was on single cells communicating with each other acting in unison without a brain or a nervous system.
okay except researchers cannot even properly define consciousness so how could they possibly do research on a concept they cannot quantify or study? There's a GOOD reason we do not rely on scientific data about the brain or mind from the 1970s anymore. You have like 40 years of neurological research to catch up on! In with the new out with the old!
The human body, as with other animals, has a wondrous system with which to work. The muscle has a memory, every muscle in the human body that does some movement until it becomes automatic works as one. At first, we teach the body to do some things and over a period of time it learns to do many things that it would d a lot slower and not as well as done over a thousand times. As we age our mind becomes part of our body and we come to react as we are trained to do. That is why people can do things that they cannot normally do at an instant without thinking about it. We cannot communicate with the knowledge our body has other than to use it and further develop it. At times our body remembers things that our brain does not, thus it seems like there is knowledge that is coming from somewhere else, when we just do not realize we know what we know.
dalefvictor
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
2
I think what you're talking about isn't really what the attached Quartz article is alluding to. And bear in mind that "virtually impossible" is still possible. Every day people experience things that are virtually impossible but happen anyway - billions of people having billions of "moments" and interactions every day is a huge lever to make the improbable but possible seem like the impossible.
Anyway, the article itself cites a definition of the mind proposed by one psychiatry professor as:
“the emergent self-organizing process, both embodied and relational, that regulates energy and information flow within and among us.”
And as such he gets to include processes external to us that control how we think. I guess it is what some people would call "the hive mind". So add your friends, family, society as a whole, social media, TV, books, physical, chemical, environmental influences as part of "your mind".
I can see that - if you extracted many Americans from America and put them in a different country for a few months or years I think many would feel like their state of mind had changed, if not their actual mind. I'm sure some would protest their mind is theirs and it will work however they want it to work regardless of external stimuli but experience has shown in most if not all cases that's probably not a long term proposition. Whether you want to define such effects as broadening the scope of your mind or just note that your mind is not well adapted to operating in complete isolation of the external world I don't know.
An analogy might be if someone said their home is just the physical structure they live in. Sure you could say that, it has nice clean boundaries at least. But if you moved the physical structure - say to another country, or put it on a ship in the ocean - is that still their "home" to them? What parts of their home and it's connections to the outside world do you have to maintain for them to still consider it their home? If they live in a big city in a sky scrapper and everyone but them moves out is it still "home"? What if all the neighbors move out and are replaced by people from a different country who don't speak their language? Or what if the entire city changes like that? Or becomes deserted and they have to fend for themselves - is it still "home"?
prometheus
Level 7
Sep 20, 2020
1
Dan Siegel and his colleagues have defined "mind" in a very specific and peculiar way with the intent to encompass external stimuli. The reason for this broadened definition is, according to Siegel, because people feel isolated and disconnected and he thinks it would increase people's happiness if they could feel a greater sense of belonging and think of themselves (i.e., their mind) as being relational to experience. While I agree that unhappiness for many people stems from feelings of isolation and disconnectedness, I disagree that anyone is going to feel more connected because a word was redefined in a psychology book. I realize he was trying to sell a book, and that means coming up with a new hook, but it's meaningless. There are many ways to connect with other people, with ourselves, and with our environment, but redefining words isn't likely among them.
resserts
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
2
I have had many times, when information came to me out of no-where! I think it is called the ‘collective knowledge.‘ I only know it as intuition.
Freedompath
Level 9
Sep 21, 2020
1
Do you have an example?
@AtheistInNC I have had many, but the one time that left a big impression is when, I awaken to a black guy lying alongside my bed in loft bedroom...a couple of nights before I dreamed that a person woke me up in the night and had a knife to my neck...it was so real that I got up went down stairs and shut my sliding glass door. Since I was 2 stories up, I felt safe in leaving that door ajar some nights. When I found the black dude lying by me... my first thought was there is that dream again...but, he moved! And it seemed that I was fully prepared, and I started screening as loud as I could and going after him down the stairs! He jumped off my balcony and disappeared, I wanted to push him, but was afraid he would really get hurt! My wallet was downstairs, on my dining table and he had gone through it, but I had no money and everything else seemed to be there, so at first my thought was there is no harm done...and that is when I lost it and called 911, and was told that they heard my screams and were trying to figure out which apartment I was in!
The guy was caught a few weeks later, found sleeping at the foot of another woman’s bed, when she awoke in the night! That incident made a big impact on my mind, because of the dream...that was so real, so I remember everything clearly!
I learned to forget things in my past, the important things that I need to keep up with..,I seem to retain them, everything else is in the past and I live in this day, If I went through my journals I could find others similar experiences. But, I don’t have time for that! Some may come to mind later... When I don’t need them! Lol
"I've had the experience of receiving knowledge from ....unknown.....impossible......sources"
If you were honest, you would not say this!
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Sep 21, 2020
1
Do any of us have any idea where our thoughts come from other than a vauge reference to our brains? You are correct it is not a good idea to default to woo.
Sorry, Anne. Not true. What I said WAS actually completely honest. I don't know how or where some of the knowlege or "images" I have seen or "received" came from.
We are interconnected simply in the sense of mutually bearing witness. This shouldn't be twisted as carte blanche to be taken over by somebody or something outside each of us. Everything morally worthwhile strengthens distinct individual identity, boundaries and initiative. These do not imperil any real harmony but provide opportunities FOR it.
HenAgnDon
Level 5
Sep 21, 2020
1
I've only written this because on "mind" threads I dread it if people insist there only is one mind, and that we aren't individuals - the identical carbon copy of bad religion. As Prometheus points out the article writer risked going in that direction. I think the sum total of intersubjectivity (testimony) plus the inference (sometimes subconscience) several other commenters mention, does the trick.
Mischi, the effect you studied in 1978 reminds me that animals' instincts are a complex of reflexes. Both environment and the stabilising factors in genetics, help to shape this. mammals' central nervous systems provide the basis for language with is infinitely symbol based.
Your mind is confined to your living being. When we use our minds to build cognitive structures and schema, we use those to see possible links in fact and theory by intuitive "filling in the blanks." That is a cognitive process occurring entirely within our minds.
wordywalt
Level 9
Sep 20, 2020
1
@MissKathleen That is the intuition I spoke of. If you had not developed the cognitive structures and schema needed, you could not have made those leaps.
Nothing about that definition, or subsequent attempt at explanation, shows any part of the mind is outside the person. Experiences, sensory input, interactions, etc. all cause changes within your brain. If it were the actually the external event, rather than the internal changes resultant from the experience, events you were unaware of and physically unaffected by that happened where you could have experienced them would still affect you. There is just no evidence to suggest this is the case.
ChestRockfield
Level 8
Sep 20, 2020
1
And if I say the mind is confined to the brain? The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise because you are making the more unlikely claim. There is no repeatable proof that the mind is not confined to the brain and the contrary is true. Damage the brain, damage the mind.
Cyklone
Level 7
Sep 20, 2020
1
Think about facts. Think about what makes sense. Think about improbability or impossibility. There are magicians who claim to be psychic. They're not. When oxygen leaves the brain, electrical impulses cease. People can't read minds. Paranormal is science fiction. Save it for Comet TV.
barjoe
Level 9
Sep 20, 2020
1
I’ve not seen anything to make me think a mind exists outside a brain.
indirect76
Level 7
Sep 25, 2020
0
There are always probabilities, if your entertainment trying reading a book called; The Atheist Afterlife, by David Staume. It has possibilities. Something to look into anyway, who knows, it may hold some answers you seek.
I have found it to be an interesting read.
MrDragon
Level 7
Sep 21, 2020
0
Enjoy being online again!
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