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I am progressive in the belief that capitalism must evolve by integrating socialist programs. I believe free education will have a return that is incalculable. I believe other things and I hope this group will challenge me. Being in my own bubble can lead to a delusional existence. Burst my bubble, please.

Omots 7 Aug 6
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Most countries are mixed economies, so called mixed state owned and private enterprises. The problem lies not on capitalism as Smith originally thought but Crony Capitalism and Excessive Capitalism, Capitalism beyond it role. Matters where the outcome is too important to be subservient to money or shareholders should be taken care by the state, such as Education, Health, Military. NOrmally Capitalist are only interested in money or monetary gain and not on long term outcomes or benefits to humanity, so basic research, education needs to be handed by governments. But in USA there is simply too much ignorance spread about socialism and too much blind belief or delusions about capitalism compared to Europe and Asia. I belief Communism was bad due to the illogical fallacy that all problems or ills could be solved through the state. BUt NEoliberealism is jus as batch crazy with the fallacy of believing that everything could be solved by corporations. In the long run Neoliberalism is not free because it takese power away from state but grant them to corporations and limits the powers of state to intervene (regulation) in favaour of the common people. Nowdays USA is no longer a government of the people, by the people and for the people, but rather of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations.

Chordan Level 4 Aug 10, 2018

Thank you. You words align with pictures in my head that I find difficult to articulate.


I had to study Marx and Weber back in my sociology major, undergrad days. I found Marx very tedious, not that he had no valid point, but that he was so damned long-winded. He wrote volumes and could have made his key points in a pamphlet. Weber was only marginally more tolerable.
But anyway, I gathered that the concept of communism was basically socialism, but wedded to the political strategy of armed revolution, that was somehow supposed to miraculously result in an equal society. Revolutions, of course, tend to have leaders. And what precise qualities of revolutionary leaders do you suppose goes with said leaders, once successful in their armed revolutions, simply handing all control back to the masses, to no one in particular?

Yeah, right. Marx was very astute at identifying social and economic ills of capitalism, but his roadmap to socialist utopia was a piece of shit. IMHO. ?

I am glad one of us got a good night's sleep.

What little I remember about it, yeah, I thought his "roadmap" was pure fantasy.

@Omots I honestly know next to nothing about the history of socialism in scandinavia. I would be interested in learning the keys to their democratic socialism success. Obviously they have free enterprise and participate in world markets, etc., but they have figured out how to regulate in a way that prioritizes a healthy basic social safety net, and that seems to have been impressively successful for them.

I have this feeling that functioning political and economic systems depend in part on the cultural values of the society supporting them. I fear that in the U.S., despite our proud flag-waving patriotic proclamations about how wonderfully democratic we are, in reality our deep Puritan roots promote a rather alarming attraction to charismatic "heros" who promise unrealistic rewards for little public effort. We are too quick to cede authority to a single executive leader promising us some vague economic "victory." We are weak on mechanisms for real accountability by our elected officials, let alone the massively wealthy power brokers behind the scenes, who shovel buttloads of money at Congress to be able to steer legislative agendas.

I imagine Finland or Norway citizens and officials simply having no tolerance for political bullies, while we here in the U.S. reward swaggering assholes.

@MikeInBatonRouge I did a paper a couple semesters ago on the one percent and had to compare socialism and capitalism. China ranked first in the socialist category, but I eliminated them because they are authoritarian. Finland is the only totally socialist country that did not have the authoritarian assholes. They ranked in the top ten in happiness, healthcare, and education. The latter two are totally free. They felt they were freer than us because they could pursue pretty much whatever education they wanted, and had no fear of going bankrupt because of medical bills. Everyone got the same medical care no matter their social status. Everyone is treated equally. They are behind the US in innovation. Since Trump has been in power I have thought about running away to a place like Finland. No. This is my country, and I am not going to let him win. Got to make a stand sometimes. We are so dysfunctional though. Unless our legislative branch reclaims their authority, I do not see how things are not going to continue going downward. The top ten percent will control what we believe. Working on my soapbox speech. I have always wondered how the government comes up with their numbers saying the economy is doing good when I see no change in the communities that I have lived in. Burst my bubble, please. I really want to work on my confidence.

and he was long winded?

@Omots Finnish, socially secure, sure! But Happy??? I thought happiness violated their code against "flagrant" public displays of emotion, ...or something πŸ˜‰

@MikeInBatonRouge grass is always greener on the other side. I just wish Americans weren’t so arrogant. There are things we can learn from others.

@Omots YES!!!!! This whole "national pride" thing always annoyed me, because true confidence and appreciation for your "tribe" does not necessitate you blowing your own horn boastfully, nor denigrating others. We should be able to say "Hey, awesome job, guys!" to our reference group without belaboring the notion of being "better THAN" someone else. Why is the put-down necessary?

@MikeInBatonRouge "National Pride" - I have an issue with the "New World Order" platitude. When I first heard that - I thought it was a death toll for our country. Whoever has been at the top of that order has always been replaced in time. For me it is "Humanity First" more than"America First." I think that is a socialist mantra.

@Omots well there you go, you are a socialist. How does it feel to hate your country? You probably don't even pray like a proper American! ? ?


thats not a bubble I'd like to burst please keep on keepng on hoping - one day - maybe ! I did my uni dissertation on women in political life on Merseyside and there ws a co-operative woman who said her mantra was "One man one dinner - no man two dinners till everyone has had one dinner" I still love it !

jacpod Level 8 Aug 7, 2018

There is no such thing as free anything, be it lunch, education or health services.
There can be however equitable sharing of the burden of taxation and its distribution to benefit society.
The American concept of "user pays" only holds good if you also embrace such notions as white supremacy, genocide, elimination of less viable traits such as mongoloidism, homosexuality, aboriginality, religiosity.
Only by making corporations subservient to the will of all people can the greed of individual owners and gross favouritism of companies in the face of the equally gross discrimination against all people be ended.

The route you suggest reminds me of Animal Farm. Whoever makes the corporations subservient will, in the end, be like the pigs in that story. They will walk on two legs like equals with the men of the corporations that remain. I do not believe fairness is attainable, and I accept that as a reality I must cope with. I use to believe that government, through regulations, was a way to protect the people from the "gross favoritism" and "gross discrimination." The pigs have taken over. I am at a loss and confused as to the direction. Groupthink destroys everything.

I think I just depressed myself. 3 am is not a good time for me to be doing this.

@Omots 3 am isn't. Get some sleep and come back refreshed. Switch the phone off.
Dream on this however - corporations and companies are merely paper entities to protect the liability of the investors. However the investors are ultimately, without exception PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS. Giving them a godlike status of immunity from the wrong doing of the people that they employ to run them is the same as giving religions freedom from taxation in secular societies. I also recently learned that here in Australia there is legislation for each of the major religions. The one that I had need to investigate was under an act that granted it the right to do whatever it wanted irrespective of it being contrary to any other Australian law! Ie. Their actions were only answerable to their god.
Goodnight, have a good sleep - try remembering what white noise looks like on an old black and white tv!

@FrayedBear I do remember that noise.

@Omots Its great for clearing your mind of unwanted thoughts in order to enable sleep.


My two cents: Capitalism: a giant freaking game of Monopoly. There is an impressive amount of wealth generated, but ...Almost everyone loses. In the U.S. cold-war mindset, socialism gets confused with violent military revolution and dictatorship. No. Socialism is simply an economic system. It exists in both free societies and in dictatorships/oligarchies. It has its strengths and weaknesses, too. Neither capitalism nor socialism can exist for long in pure form. They need the strengths of each other.

My metaphor is that capitalism is a pyramid scheme. The top gets everything, and the people on the bottom have no chance. Why people hold onto this dream/lie of the American dream, I don't understand. The pure form can only exist if people can be trusted to be honorable, and not self-serving. Yeah, right. I do not believe in communism because the classless society is a fantasy. I do believe in evolution, and I feel socialistic ideas is the best hope of keeping the concept of having a fairer society alive until the next theory emerges. The people at the bottom of the pyramid deserve better. Finland is all socialist, and one of the happiest nations in the world. Innovation suffers because of that. Is that really bad?

that is pretty good. and concise. and correct, mind if i quote you


I agree. Capitalism has ridden the coattails of their credit and credit cards solution for too long. they need another enticement to placate the workers because right now the owners aren't meeting the workers' needs and the workers are questioning the ownership dilemma. the classic Marx conundrum.


Being Progressive is the only way to be.

vnufall Level 7 Aug 6, 2018

Nothing to argue about. I especially agree with you that education brings an incalculable return. Capitalism's excesses must be restrained for the good of society.

Krysia22 Level 7 Aug 6, 2018

We can keep all of us honest!

kmdskit3 Level 8 Aug 6, 2018

So sorry, but I agree with everything you just said. ?

Big help you areπŸ™‚

Thank you though. I do worry that I live in a bubble.

@Omots You must be one of those edumacated elites, that Fox News is always referring to as a scare tactic for their viewers.

@MikeInBatonRouge I just have a simple concept that seems to scare people. It's the details I don't have an answer for. I see the goal, I just don't know how to get there. The first step is to conquer the fear. That is as far as I have gotten.

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