This guy is just a guy trying to stand up for what’s right, when so many men are afraid to say anything in their defense.

And seeing how I get treated, can you blame them?

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

I think this chick is just a troll stirring things up.

This is simply not true. Why? Because men, and this is typically cismen, are identified mainly by their gender role performance. If you were blaming people based on their chromosomes and features exclusive to those, then you might have a point. But you do not have a point. Because cismen are being blamed for attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors which they select from among alternative options.

When people are complaining about cismen in general, they are asking men to select better options in attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. That is reasonable, just, and good. Cismen need lessons in better character, particularly with regard to how most of them treat women and everyone else who is not a cisman, by and large. This is not true of women or the female identified, who have been disproportionally subject to the poor behavior of those cismen socialized into toxic masculinity.

There's no point in trying the old, bloviating rhetorical clown-game of trying to reverse these statements by gender (as if gender were binary) because not only is there a dramatic asymmetry in the advantages enjoyed by cismen and disadvantages suffered by everyone else, but also, gender is a continuum.

@Punkrockgirl77 Covered that in the disclaimer in the first line: “Because men, and this is typically cismen,“ That means not all men or cismen but only “typically”.

@Punkrockgirl77, you’ll never get through to him. ejbman is a hardcore bigot.

I’ll try to keep in mind that you consider a simple statement of fact to be “whiny “

@Dangrenade ??.

Nice try, and thumbs up for effort, but you are off base in all of your assumptions.

Could it be that you have been so brainwashed by toxic feminism that you can’t see the world around you?

@Dangrenade No. Also, I doubt I'm as wrong as you say. Although I imagine it would be hard to admit it and save face.

@ejbman

Your “arguments” are silly. You think you know me, but what you “know”?is only a caricature of your mental image of me.

As example, you state a common fallacy: some women are stronger than some men, and you believe that disproves my statement that men are stronger than women.

Granted, a more correct and complete statement would be “statistically, in general, on average, most men are stronger than most women.”

But simplifying to “men are stronger than women” doesn’t detract from the generally agreed upon meaning of such a statement.

THIS is why I didn’t want to refute your “arguments”. It has already taken too much of my time to refute just ONE of your remarks.

@Dangrenade You say my arguments are silly, but even if statistically, on average, men are “stronger” (let’s leave aside the assumption that muscularity equals “strength” ) it is a non sequitur to make this an argument that men should be “providers”. Any simple perusal of cross cultural information would reveal cultures where men are window dressing and women do all the manual labor. Gender is performative and not biologically determined.

I totally have your measure. It is small.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

Now that I've seen some of the content, it's hard to know where to begin in setting you right. Let's start with this obvious piece of nonsense: "Since women are more nurturing, empathic, and caring by nature...". That right there is a pure lie. There is no evidence for this perspective whatsoever. Cisgendered women are often, but not always, less caring nature. Estrogen gives women of all chromosomal types more empathy. However, this doesn't make women "nurturing" nor "empathic" by any means. Many men are even more nurturing and caring than many women because they take the time and have the motivation to give more. As far as nurturing, statistics show that companies with men CEOs regularly out-compete their female-led rivals.

I definitely hear you say that you were taught a more traditional set of gender roles, but that does not make those gender roles correct. In fact, it seems obvious that the matriarchy/feminism failed you as well by setting you up with regressive values that hurt your ability to relate genuinely to the men in your life.

If the men in your life complained and cheated, have you ever considered the possibility that it was because you were an inadequate partner? Perhaps you should have listened to what you call whining, complaining, and "bitching" instead of dismissing it as a character flaw on their part, and instead consider that they had reasonable concerns and criticisms, to which you should have stepped up.

Now you are recapitulating your relationship failures in your online interactions. Perhaps my response seems harsh to you, but maybe this might be an opportunity to take the toxic "grow up, girl!" phrase you probably heard all your life and instead replace it with "have the guts" (like men often have to do) to face your shortcomings.

If you do the work to revise your unevolved perspectives, you may still salvage the possibility of having an actually intimate relationship with a man, instead of cluelessly alienating every one of them that you encounter.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

You say my arguments are silly, but even if statistically, on average, women are “nurturing” (let’s leave aside the assumption that nurturing equals “caring” ) it is a non sequitur to make this an argument that women should be “child rearers”. Any simple perusal of cross cultural information would reveal cultures where women are window dressing and men do all the household labor and parenting. Gender is performative and not biologically determined.

I totally have your measure of your brain. It is small.

@Dangrenade Actually, I have no problem at all with your "gender reversal", except for the error you made with cultures where women are "window dressing" (there are none - with the possible exception of some western subcultures which force women into these roles) and "men do all the household labor and parenting" (there are none - with the possible exception of some western subcultures where men take on the role of "house husband" ). Other than perpetrating your errors, what was your point in making the gender reversal? To prove that I am right? Because that's what you did.

@Dangrenade What a silly, silly man. Your attempt to reverse actually proves that it CANNOT BE REVERSED! It proves the imbalance of male privilege and character failure.

Let's start with false equivalence of testosterone/aggressive with estrogen/nurturance-empathy. There is no science proving an estrogen/nuturance-empathy link, but there IS science proving a testosterone/aggression link (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3693622/).

Let's move on to CEO statistics:

The Peterson Institute for International Economics completed a survey of 21,980 firms from 91 countries and found that having women at the C-Suite level significantly increases net margins.

"A profitable firm at which 30 percent of leaders are women could expect to add more than 1 percentage point to its net margin compared with an otherwise similar firm with no female leaders," the report notes. "By way of comparison, the typical profitable firm in our sample had a net profit margin of 6.4 percent, so a 1 percentage point increase represents a 15 percent boost to profitability.

Joe Carella, the assistant dean at the University of Arizona, Eller College of Management, has found that diverse companies become more creative. "We did our own analysis of Fortune 500 companies," he tells CNBC Make It, "and we found that companies that have women in top management roles experience what we call 'innovation intensity' and produce more patents — by an average of 20 percent more than teams with male leaders."

[cnbc.com]

The rest isn't even worth addressing. I rest my case. You're obviously a fool, or a troll.

@Dangrenade Mostly, however, I think it's important to tear down your whole notion of reversal in the first place, as if gender/situation were binary. They are not. Science has demonstrated again, and again, and again, that gender - even chromosomal sex - is a spectrum, not a category.

@ejbman, most of your comments don’t deserve a response, but I would like to point out that I never advocated for fewer women in the workplace or positions of leadership or authority. I advotake freedom, equality, peace, mutual respect, and a voice for all.

@ejbman

I have already demonstrated what a bigot you are, using your own words, and swapping genders. I repeat them here:

“If the men in your life complained and cheated, have you ever considered the possibility that it was because you were an inadequate partner? Perhaps you should have listened to what you call whining, complaining, and "bitching" instead of dismissing it as a character flaw on their part, and instead consider that they had reasonable concerns and criticisms, to which you should have stepped up.

I totally have your female brain measure. It is small.”

I’m sure you felt comfortable, smug, witty, and smart typing these words, did you not?

At this point, why should anyone care about your opinions?

@Dangrenade Yeah, I'm going with the "you're a troll" perspective. You have advocated for nothing like freedom, equality, peace, mutual respect, or a voice for all. You have advocated for shutting down women who have legitimate complaints and have also advocated largely for yourself, in the attempt to get off the hook for being a misogynist jerk to the women in your life and to everyone on Agnostic.com The ONLY people I've ever met who actually advocated for freedom, equality, peace, mutual respect, and a voice for all (including men) are feminists. Feminism is basically humanism, but it was invented and promoted by female-identified folks, and continues to mostly be championed by those folks, so it deserves to retain the title of feminism.

@Dangrenade You have proven only that your personality is that of a misogynist jerk who deserves all the ire directed at you for your terrible behavior. What you call "bigotry" is actually a complaint about your personality and that of many of the men like you who are so entitled and narcissistic you think everything is about you and what you want and need, to the exclusion of everyone else. You allow nobody else a voice and think that your complaints ought to have top billing. This is a failed personality strategy that you can change.

The reason why you should care about my opinion, and I'm talking here to whatever part of you which may have genuine humanity left - under the layers and layers of mistraining and hatred you've absorbed from toxic masculinity - is if you hope to ever have a genuine, loving relationship with a woman. I know it's what you crave and what you find yourself incapable of enjoying.

I can say that while there were times in my life I was more like you, I learned from my mistakes. I can now say with great gratitude and humility that I enjoy wonderful relationships with the women, female identified persons, men, and male identified persons in my life. Some of the women in my life have even felt safe enough to honor me with their submission, because they know I will treat it with respect. I did not change my attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors to earn that "prize" but because it was the right thing to do, and consequently, I have enjoyed the positive consequences thereof.

Here's the key: I do not believe anyone else - woman, female-identified, or otherwise - is inferior, as you seem to do. I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality and enjoy each in their measure. I recommend you learn this skill, both for your own sake, and for the sake of those around you.

Good luck on your journey. May you achieve the enlightenment that brings love.

@ejbman , thanks for proving all my points.

@Dangrenade LOL, a more troll thing was never said! Ha ha ha ha ha!

@ejbman "Feminism is basically humanism"

Excellent point.

It’s both. Read it in my comment below, cut and pasted verbatim

WOW! Did he really say that? Thinking it was balancing things? I would have done more than banned him!

@Wildflower I copied and pasted to get his exact words. No editing

@Wildflower I am especially impressed with the level of respect he demonstrates in this post... ?‍

“You sound like a poster bot for Incels Are Us”

The go-to ad hominem insult de jure of feminists and blue pill men when they lack a coherent argument.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

So this was your attempt to ‘balance’ things?? No surprise you got banned! You sound like a poster girl for SpinstersR Us.

“I was raised in a traditional family, believing that a man was to be a provider and protector of his wife and children, and the woman was to be a mother, nurturer, and take care of her husband.

Since women are the nurtures, they tend to stay home and take care of the children, so they tend to earn less money than men, even though many men also enjoy raising children and helping around the house. I was never one to expect a 50/50 division of labor. Women do more of the housework and child rearing BY FAR.

But after two marriages to whiny, complaining, cheating men, who watch me do 10x the housework they do, earn 4x less money, contribute more to the raising of the children, and STILL bitch if they think it’s “my turn” to mow the lawn, repair the fence, or fix the car, because “toxic masculinity”, well, guys, I’m on to you.

So right back atcha. If you’re gonna whine about how “women are awful” and “women are privileged”, I sure as hell am not interested in you.”

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

WOW! Did she really say that? Thinking it was balancing things? I would have done more than banned her!

Check content above your reply.

@Wildflower Holy fucking shit what a knuckle-dragger!

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

Generally my answer to you is no. Again, we aren't being shown the content, but in general, I would say women need to spend more time sitting down, shutting up, listening, and trying to understand the perspectives of men - just like men have been (often psychologically/socially, even violently) forced to do for millenia. I think more women should stop whining and stop expecting to be treated with kid gloves.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

Holy fucking shit what a brain-dead ditzy b****!

@Dangrenade You so-called "gender reversals" here are a massive, massive FAIL. Why? Because men have NEVER in the history of earth (with the possible exception of the recent #metoo movement) EVER been forced to face their shortcomings. That's a laughable fallacy that anyone can disprove with a simple Pfft.

@Dangrenade Also, if you can't see how comparing a knuckle-dragger to whatever ugly slur you provide is a prima facie fallacy and false equivalence, then I can't help you. You need remedial kindergarten training.

???

I could bit at 18, just like my wife.

I never needed her “permission” to buy a car, nor her, mine, but since it’s a big financial decision, I would hope neither party would do so without consultation.

Beating anyone is assault, and illegal in this country.

I’m not going to continue. Please learn about our laws and culture before commenting.

Go back and read history before you say I'm wrong. women did not get the right to vote until 1920. Abortion didn't become legal until the 70s. I remember my mother, I'm 52, not being able to buy an automobile without her husband's permission. Rape laws became a bit more strict in the seventies. The reason why these things are no longer true ,is because women had to fight for the rights we have now.

@Kojaksmom no argument there.

But things are MUCH better now, right?

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

Before you start arguing against female privilege if you're a woman ask yourself what year did men earn the right not to pay child support to your bastard children? in what war did women die in battle in equal numbers to men, (instead of men at 99.9%, even though women now make up 30% of US military)? When was the issue of greater male suicide, violent crime deaths, or much greater workplace deaths addressed daily in the news, and mitigations funded by the government?

And when, while seeking alimony in court, did the judge order YOU to privide sexual favors to your ex husband in exchange for your being able to "continue the lifestyle you came to expect"?

Oh for fucks sake! I could hit your bullshit up with some more bullshit but you know fuck it!

It's fact, just reality.

You can check it out - verbatim in my comment

Its always about the mans comfort level... A few more years !

@Cutiebeauty I realize that my comment looks to be agreeing with men. I think the "men bashing" is just perception. Some men feel that they are losing power when in fact they are maintaining the power they have had all along, women are being granted the same power so to them it looks like it's unbalanced. This perception has been happening for the past few years hence my use of the phrase "for a few years". As much as I would prefer that equality for women happen tomorrow, I am being realistic in my expectations that it probably won't happen for another 5-10 years.

@Nukdookum no words .... Back peddling... Clumsily...

@Nukdookum Some words come to mind .Head and brick wall.

@Cutiebeauty " no words .... Back peddling... Clumsily..."
I'm honestly confused on what part of his post you had an issue with?

@Nukdookum

Hey, I appreciate your comments. I do highly recommend you watch “The Red Pill” (and don’t let anyone let you get it confused with redit, or other groups/websites), just to give the other side a fair hearing.

You may be surprised.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

I agree that I would need to see specifics before being able to give my opinion. What I do know is that men have been cannon fodder for centuries. I do understand that some women feel threatened by the current atmosphere of equality for all. Yes, sometimes I do feel that some arguments can be over the top but having lived for half a century with my white female privilege I am fine if things seem a bit unbalanced towards benefiting men for a few years while we adjust to the new paradigm.

COPY AND PASTE, GENDERS/SITUATION REVERSED:

Its always about the womans comfort level... A few more years !

@Dangrenade I can't think of any scenario where women have had the upper hand in all of history. They were basically treated like property, given as prizes in marriage to solidify business or political agreements up until a few hundred years ago. They have only had the ability to vote since 1920, that's less than 100 years ago. They still only make 78 cents on the dollar for doing the exact same job that men do. You can reverse the gender in your thought problem but the reality is that women have never been more privileged than men. What is your point? If we imagined men being considered less relevant than women (which has never happened and is still not happening today) then we might think differently of the current situation? I don't see how imagining a reverse situation that has never existed makes the issue any less wrong.

@Nukdookum ,

You can’t think of even ONE scenario where women have had the upper hand?

Not even ONE?

Well, that just goes to show how complete and pervasive your brainwashing has been, so let me help you with just a FEW:

Women and children first.

The draft

Genital mutilation (still a COMMON and WIDELY ACCEPTABLE practice on male babies).

Child custody

Thousands of battered men’s shelters in US, only ONE battered men’s shelter, even though studies show women physically abuse men at equal rates.

Women receive much lighter sentences for similar crimes.

I could go on.

And as for your so called “women make 78 cents on the dollar for the same job”, that is EASILY disputed, simply by pointing out that women in general do not do “the same job”, so you math is flawed. Women tend to work fewer hours, are on average less dedicated to the company, and place greater value on free and family time. That’s not a dig. It’s just different values, and I get and respect that. But don’t call it “the same job”

If women were to be had so cheap for doing “the same job”, employers would be falling over themselves to hire more women in order to boost their bottom lines.

@Dangrenade Let's not be naive. In today's work place HR creates a job description. With that job description comes a list of responsibilities, a set amount of vacation based on longevity with the company, and the same amount of sick leave. Both men and women doing that "same job" have the exact same opportunity to work or dedicate time to family. Any employee who is hired for that job should be paid the same. However it is a will documented fact that women earn less than men for the same "position". I have many male coworkers who have family and take time off to bring their kids to doctors appointments while my female coworkers who have no children are in the office more days out of the year. Yet despite this disparity in free and family time the women who do not take time off for their families make less than the men who do take time off for their families.

A one hour Netflix comedy special takes exactly the same amount of resources and work by the comedian to create. Yet even for the "same" one hour on stage being taped by a film crew, women are offered much less than male comedians.

All of those things that you mentioned as giving women the upper hand. Were they things which the women wanted and asked for or were they things which men decided they needed?

I am aware that feminism is bashing men who behave poorly. It is not against all men so I cannot agree that the "man bashing" is getting out of hand. What is being bashed is the behavior not the gender of the perpetrator.

One last question which I believe night demonstrate my point. If women have already achieved equality and the genders are truly balanced, would you trade places with a woman? You don't have to dress like a woman, you don't have to change sex, just agree to be treated like a woman for a year. Would you?

@Nukdookum

I absolute wish I had been born a woman. Men are to discriminated against in our world

@Nukdookum

Wage gap explained:

[google.com]

@Nukdookum

More wage gap stats:

[dol.gov]

Lol! I love how they compare men and women’s hours spent on “child care” and “household duties) read: cleaning, cooking, shopping)”, but leave out maintenance, repair, improvements, car care.

@Nukdookum

Here’s an interesting article:

[freakonomics.com]

@Nukdookum

And another:

[google.com]

@Nukdookum

I was curious as to whether wage gap studies only looked at earnings, or all forms of income (including welfare, alimony, and child support, as an adder to those benefitting, and subtracted from those paying), as well as tax benefits and penalties such as who pays more, and who gets more deductions and credits, such as claiming dependents and earned income credits.

I imagine all the above would heavily benefit women and single mothers on average, while penalizing men and divorced fathers, but I failed to find mention of these things in conjunction with “wage gap”

I wasnt banned from any group. I was blocked from a post to this group. I can no longer view it, although I keep getting notifications of responses to my comments.